Aussies F35 will lose out to PAK FA

[Jigs]

The F-35 is not made to dogfight period. Russians have always made supermanuverable fighters and always had the edge in it. One thing they never had the edge in was avionics and stealth. F-35s avionics are almost the exact same as the F-22 (besides radar) with enhanced A2G packages and we all know it is only second to the F-22 as the stealthiest fighter in the world. It will lock on fire 2 off and turn around before the fighters detect it in the area.

Now we all have to wait and see just how good it can do this. Fact of the matter is we still don't know much about the F-35 and the same goes even more for the PAK-FA most specs are not set in stone or even accurate.


F-35 has alot going for it and shouldn't be overlooked but at the sametime if you are looking to dogfight in your airspace i would recommend a Eurofighter because that is what it is made to be. Everything is multirole but not equal in all roles.

This is how Lockheed and Northrop think of it.

 

[Parashuram1]

Not really.

We are very close to Indonesia, Malaysia, china.

Australia's air force is the second oldest in the world.

Since you are from Australia, I would be interested to know what you think of JSF personally and would be grateful if you can share with us a couple of disputes you have with Indonesia and Malaysia. Thanks.

 

[xdrive]

Since you are from Australia, I would be interested to know what you think of JSF personally and would be grateful if you can share with us a couple of disputes you have with Indonesia and Malaysia. Thanks.

Well most Australians, including myself want the best aircraft possible. If the russian fighter is better then the JSF well then i think we should get the russian fighter.

But of course that won't happen, since Australia put money forward to help develop the JSF. I think we will just have to live with the JSF. It is infact better then the fighter aircraft of most of our neighbours.

As for your questions about disputes in our area. We don't really have any problems here. We have a great relationship with Malaysia and a alright relationship with Indonesia, but we can't get complacent.

We have had lots of problems with Indonesia in the past. Such as the
Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation. It's a pretty secret war, not many people talk about it it's classed as an undeclared war. The Indonesians were pretty threatening over that.

Indonesia?Malaysia confrontation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then we had the illegal invasion of East Timor. When the Indonesian invaded, they killed 5 Australian reporters just to keep the invasion a secret, that nearly brought us to war.

The relationship is better these days, but like i said, we can't get complacent. I also heard that Indonesia is planning to get some pretty advanced Russian fighter aircraft, so we need something to match it. Our current fighter craft are pretty out dated.

 

[Tiger Awan]

US Deputy Defense Secretary Bill Lynn said the delivery of the first joint strike fighter (JSF) to Australia would now be executed closer to the original deadline.

Lynn said development delays on the JSF programme has been shortened from 30 months to about 12 months.

The first delivery of JSF to Australia was delayed by a year, after the US defence secretary Robert Gates removed Major General David Heinz from the JSF project.

Gates also withheld $614m in payments from Lockheed, the prime contractor of the programme, in order to help fund further development.

"The development was definitely going to cost more and the unit costs have gone up and the important thing is to get it right and budget it right and that's what we think we've done," Lynn said.

Australia, which is to acquire 14 F-35 fighters to replace its aging fleet of F-18 Hornets and F-111s at a cost of $3.2bn, will later increase the numbers to 100, at a projected cost of $16bn.

A fifth-generation, single-seat, single-engine stealth multirole fighter, the JSF, also known as the F-35, can perform close air support, tactical bombing and air defence missions.


Air Force Technology - US to Deliver Joint Strike Fighter to Australia Within 12 Months

 

[Parashuram1]

I also heard that Indonesia is planning to get some pretty advanced Russian fighter aircraft, so we need something to match it. Our current fighter craft are pretty out dated

.

Indonesians have recently decided to acquire the Su-30 series of fighters if that is what you are referring to. However, they are pretty marginal (about 12-16) to pose any threat to a country as large as yours. While Malaysians have acquired greater numbers of the more superior Su-30MKMs similar to the Indian Air Force, you say that Malaysia has a very good relation with Australia.

Well considering your neighborhood doesn't have a very strong military force, the JSF is an excellent choice for the RAAF. The reason being RAAF is going to remain superior in Oceania region owing to the fact that neither Indonesia nor Malaysia would be acquiring 5th generation fighters for quite a long time and they know the capabilities of the JSF.... unless of course you start going by APA's report on being "overwhelmed" by Flankers, which is impossible in your area due to very small size air forces around you.

 

[Mohammad Ayaz Khan]

Yeah, I think Pakistan shouild go for F35 but in a different way. we should not buy off the shelf.

We need to enter the JSF or F35 Development program. This can be done by starting of with a sub contract from Lockheed Martin for a few small JSF parts to be manufactured at our Defense Complexes.

At the same time we should try to affiliate with this program to stay abreast of this technology. This wd help us absorb this tech and prepare infra structure for it till 2020

As ther is no way we wd everbe able to get high tech Russian Technology we better stay with China and USA. However like Turkey got US to build an F16 factory in Turkey we should get a piece in the JSF pie and try to be an essential part of the development and then manufacturing program.

This sounds far fetched right now but evertything starts small.

This time we should go for Transfer of tech in form of affiliation with JSF program.

 

[Thomas]

Don't count the F-35 out in a close in battle with the Su-30/35. The Sukhoi may be very maneuverable. but they will have a hard time getting radar locks. And the F-35 can target and shoot it's AIM-9X missiles even if the opposing aircraft is in it's rear position. The Sukhoi's thrust vectoring won't give it as much of an advantage as most think.

 

[amalakas]

the aim 9 x is not yet fully operational...
and that head helmet look lock on for high off boresight capability has existed with the suckhoi family for almost twenty years now..you may want to check up on that

 

[Thomas]

the aim 9 x is not yet fully operational...
and that head helmet look lock on for high off boresight capability has existed with the suckhoi family for almost twenty years now..you may want to check up on that

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/rtnwcm/groups/rms/documents/content/rtn_rms_ps_aim9x_datasheet.pdf

AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"AIM-9X Sidewinder The AIM-9X is the newest member of the AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range missile family in use by more than 40 nations around the world. This next-generation Sidewinder missile passed operational evaluation in November 2003 and was approved for full-rate production in May 2004."

The AIM-9X is already in operational U.S. inventory. And currently being used on the F-15/18. However upon further investigation it should be noted the AIM9-X is only being looked at for mounting on hard points of the F-35. This will of course enlarge it's RCS to some degree. How much remains unseen.
This missile really will make a difference for 4th generation aircraft. Negating much of the advantage that thrust vectoring gives the Sukhoi's. As of Sept. 2008, 3000 AIM-9X had been delivered to the U.S. inventory.

Perhaps you could enlighten us on off bore-sight air to air thrust vectoring missiles currently in Russian inventory?

and that head helmet look lock on for high off boresight capability has existed with the suckhoi family for almost twenty years now..you may want to check up on that

I am not knocking the flankers abilities. It is a good aircraft line. I am simply saying don't count the F-35 out in air to air combat against the flanker.

 

[Thomas]

Another nice ability of the AIM-9X is it's data link ability. It can be fired by one aircraft and guided to target by another.

 

[Parashuram1]

What is RAAF's perception about this? Has Australian pilot flown the prototype of JSF till now? I think that would reveal the actual situation of JSF. From what Lockheed Martin says, I think JSF is the perfect fighter not just for Australia, but also for a large section of the world.

Perhaps an RAAF Pilot's interview would clear.

 

[---RequieM]

Ignore the report; Karlo Kopp and his chums know absolutely nothing about anything they're talking about, read some of the other articles to find that out.

He knows of gimmicks and that's about it, he keeps banging on about 3DTVC, it means nothing in high speed flight, it's best use is subsonic aircraft and for airshows... Experienced engineer? Engineer I would doubt, perhaps a technician or someone with very little thoery knowledge of aircraft and even less knowledge of the cost of development of features in such an industry.

SU-35, it's an upgraded Flanker; no matter how much you tart it up it's still a 40 year old basic design, it's in the same class as SHornet, I would back any Euro-canards (Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon) against it let alone F-35.

Bin F-35 to free up costs for an F-22 development... F-35 is less than 5 years from full production, F-35 project is potentially worth Trillions, has had in excess of $50bn spent on it that cannot be recovered and is desperately needed to replace aircraft designed in the 1960s and 70s, that Idea is a non-starter, let alone the fantasiful costs of an "F-22C"

The only poor part of F-35 programme is the STOVL requirement, if CATOBAR and CTOL was all that was required it would likely be a much better aircraft, Harriers could have and should have been replaced under an entirely different programme.

AIM-9X? RAAF like the RAF are using ASRAAM

more to the point, where are Australias potential adversaries going to get fancy kit like PAK-FA or even the fancy upgraded Flankers Carlo keeps banging on about? if they do they wont be able to afford enough to create a fleet capable of any damage

The only way anything of SU-35 level/below is going to get the better of F-35 is with a comprehensive electronic warfare/support system (even then the odds are still loaded in the favour of the F-35) or in a dogfight, SU-35 etc may have problems achieving a lock at 40nm but at 10nm? No problem!

 

[gambit]

The only poor part of F-35 programme is the STOVL requirement, if CATOBAR and CTOL was all that was required it would likely be a much better aircraft, Harriers could have and should have been replaced under an entirely different programme.

Am leaning very strongly towards this view based upon the engineering aspect of S/VTOL itself. The forward fan section takes too much internal volume space.

 

[Vassnti]

Ex-RAAF chiefs doubt JSF case Patrick Walters, National security editor | March 12, 2008
A GROUP of seven senior ex-RAAF officers has called for an independent review of statements made by Defence Department officials to a Senate inquiry on Australia's future air combat aircraft.

The group, led by retired air vice-marshals Peter Criss and Brian Graf, has written to the Senate foreign affairs and defence committee arguing that the Defence Department has not fully explored the case for alternatives to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which is planned to become the RAAF's main strike fighter beyond 2014.

In particular, the group, which includes defence aviation analyst Carlo Kopp, has questioned the recent $6billion purchase of 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets and believes the Defence Department has not adequately scrutinised alternatives to the F-35, such as the F-22 fighter.

They want a "quality assurance review" to test the veracity of some evidence presented by senior Defence officials at a Senate estimates committee hearing last month.

"The reason for this review is that if the Government accepts the statements made at face value and acts on them in good faith, then it is our professional judgment that Australia will be at risk of loss of sovereignty," they said in a letter to the chairman of the Senate foreign affairs and defence committee, Labor's Mark Bishop.

"A sound and timely quality assurance process can detect and correct such serious errors."

The group has queried a $400million cost estimate for cancelling the Super Hornet contract provided by Defence and also argues that the Super Hornets may not be capable of defeating the latest Russian fighters being bought by air forces in Southeast Asia.

They also contend that the Defence Department has never undertaken a proper evalution of alternatives to the F-35 fighter, particularly the F-22 Raptor.

The US Congress has barred sales of the F-22 to foreign countries, butthe Rudd Government is interested in exploring whether the aircraft could be made available to the RAAF.

"Regional capabilities are being fielded, or are expected to be fielded in future, that will defeat the F-35, but not the F-22A. So the requirement for the F-35 has been overtaken by regional capabilities that outclass the JSF whenever introduced to service," the ex-RAAF officers said.

Senator Bishop told The Australian last night it would be up to the Government to consider the group's call for an independent review of advice provided to senators by the Defence Department.



As for Aussie pilots flying them i dont know about tests but training is due to begin in 2013

 

[informer]

Yeah, I think Pakistan shouild go for F35 but in a different way. we should not buy off the shelf.

We need to enter the JSF or F35 Development program. This can be done by starting of with a sub contract from Lockheed Martin for a few small JSF parts to be manufactured at our Defense Complexes.

At the same time we should try to affiliate with this program to stay abreast of this technology. This wd help us absorb this tech and prepare infra structure for it till 2020

As ther is no way we wd everbe able to get high tech Russian Technology we better stay with China and USA. However like Turkey got US to build an F16 factory in Turkey we should get a piece in the JSF pie and try to be an essential part of the development and then manufacturing program.

This sounds far fetched right now but evertything starts small.

This time we should go for Transfer of tech in form of affiliation with JSF program.

Pakistan won't be sold F35's thats for sure. Also pakistan won't be able to enter the devolopment program because it's too late.