Attack on Pakistan is an attack on all?

[foxhound]

Salaam!

Just thinking.....

Attack on Pakistan is an attack on all?

Pakistan faces many challenges to its security - Internal or external!

The Pakistan establishment are to blame for many of the problems faced by Pakistan - economic mess, poverty, lack of adequate facilities, corruption etc.

However, there are also many challenges faced by external opponents that take advantages of Pakistan's internal problems and thus 'ENGINEER' schemes against the nation. WHAT CAN PAKISTAN DO TO REDUCE OR ELIMINATE THESE THREATS?

A nuclear capable country with the ability to deliver its payload in many areas, seems to be in danger of destroying itself. WHY is this?

My view is if Pakistani leadership takes the COURAGE and have 'balls' should take a firm stand and threaten its so called 'allies'...i.e...those that are threatening it.....hence the US and those that are siding it!

Alot of the retoric given in the media...is mainly PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE.....their aim is TARNISH THE IMAGE of THE COUNTRY...DEMONISE IT....AND THEN GET OTHER PARTIES (LIKE MINDED) TO HELP DESTRY IT OR WEAKEN IT!

Pakistan too should do the same?

JUst a brief re-cap on the situation.....

A brief situation awareness point of view!

Situation Afghanistan:

US/Nato/Isaf forces are overall losing control of key areas in afghanistan:
1) Afghan government primarily exercises control in Kabul region....and even this area has seen Taliban activity.
2) Helmand has seen a greater resurgent Taliban activity.....the Isaf (primarily British) forces have consistently taken territory and caused much casualties to Taliban forces....BUT DESPITE this....the Taliban are able to regroup and find new recruits. (I don't know if you've seen any of the documentaries of British Royal Marines and Paras engaging regularly in 'contact' with Taliban forces.....it shows a lot of fierce resistance by the Taliban, despite enduring very heavy air activity (precision bombings etc).
3) Militarily the foreign forces are causing a lot of disruption to Taliban activity...however politically they are not doing well. Certain governmernts such as the Canadians and a few others have indicated a withdrawal dates for their forces). The war with the insurgents are over 7 years+, the question is do the foreign powers have the WILL to fight a long duration protracted conflict?
4) The frustration of not being able to successfully achieve their goals in Afghanistan has resulted in them focusing on the borders of Pakistan. HOWEVER, this could cause much problems for them - it will not eradicate terrorism or defeat Taliban.....it could potentially make a nation more unstable as is the case with Pakistan. Do the global powers want a NUCLEAR ARMED failed state?

Overall, due to a number of reasions, such as the following:

1) shortage of troops (ISAF/US)
2) Shortage of equipment to transform Afghanistan (Development wise).
3) the waning International support (i.e. many Governments would like to leave ASAP if they could + not many nations willing to contribute troops or material (such as helicopters etc).
4) Finanacially many nations are 'cash-strapped' and would like to focus their 'monies' elswhere.
5) the long conflict in Afghanistan has been predicted to run for at least another 15 years+.....again does anyone have the 'stomach' to fight this long....it becomes a 'war of attrition'?


All in all, A big game is being played...by everyone. A recent strike in which a 'Taliban' leader was killed...was later to be confirmed as a serving senior Pakistan military officer. The Pakistan governments are playing realist political card. Pakistan has not lost interest in the Taliban...hence they are still getting funds/training from the secret services of Pakistan.

In addition, the Iranians have increased their funding/support of the Taliban forces (to keep the ISAF forces bogged down) and also funding discrete individuals to minimise Pakistan support.

The Indians (primarily RAW) are taking full advantages of the situation and have supplied to key 'rogue' elements within the Taliban/Al-qaeda groups....it is alledged that RAW have approximately 10,000 operatives of various abilities within Pakistan (mainly disgruntled and greedy groups who are willing to destroy various resources of Pakistan for monetary sums) Hence, Pakistan is retaliating....you then see certain incidents in India.

Everyone, behind the doors are fighting for their own interests.....you can say 'screwing' one another. The US/ISAF need Pakistan as well as Pakistan needs them. Thus, Pakistan is prepared to lose many numbers of its personnel/ and Local taliban forces in order toreach its goals.....I believe it has given tacit approval to the US to launch attacks on key individuals (the ones that Pakistan would like to see destroyed aswell). It is only when thinghs get to the media, when they start to complain.

If Pakistan does not want these UAV incursions, then it does have the ability to stop this. Pakistan can reduce NATO/ISAF/US supplies from Pakistan....this would then be a logistical nightmare for the foreign forces...it would escate further their costs in this conflict.

My point is that despite Pakistan being economically and politically unstable....it still can stop a would be aggressor. It is a nuclear armed nation that has the capability (officially) to strike within 3000KM range....(please note unofficially it could be longer...maybe a potential ICBM). It could cause much instability in this region to effect global market positions and environmentally catastrophic issues.

To resolve the issues of the coflict in this region means being tactfull and sincere. It is a legitimate goal of Pakistan to keeps its area of influence from potential adversaries (Pakistani neighbours - those near and far). The US has let down Pakistan on numerous occassions and basically left it in the S***!

Therefore, the US has to look at Pakistan's security perspective.....everything was on the balance fine...until the US invasion of Afghanistan.....which was essentially perpetuated by the STUPID NEO-CONS (Arrogant B******S! and supported by the right wing Zionist and fundamentalist christian lobbies - which happen to control the media in the US). America is a beautiful country but controlled by a minority of arse holes, who are bent on bringing instability in the world.

If the US is not willing to change its policies and interests...why expect this from others?

Pakistan needs to get its 'house in order'.....but for many reasons is unable to do this. The CIA are no 'angels'.....they too seem like a 'state within a state'... with the backing of various senators/lobbyist..they have caused much havoc in many countries.

Pakistan needs to nuetralize their activities in its region......but unfortunately it's always the hierarchy of political and military leaders who have 'screwed' up the nation for their own vested interests!

Militant groups such as Mehsud is definately not working for the cause of Islam.....more likely funded by third parties (CIA/RAW/MI6 etc)...........just a bit surprised that this arsehole has not been caught yet!

The aim of foreign powers is to cause internal disruption...weaken the state further...and then make it subservient to foreign powers......the agenda of US and its allies!........I hope that Pakistan plays the double game...milk them as much as possible and then screw them....so that they can have an honourable F**K**G EXIT...LIKE THE RUSSIANS!

 

[foxhound]

Cont.....previous post....sorry not enough time!

Just to clarify....I condemn any form of terrorist incidents and any extreme radical groups whatsoever......

(1) Despite the amount of resources spent on the war on terror - i.e Iraq and Afghanistan.....the results have been extremely poor.....I say that...because PEACE has not been achieved in the areas.......the insurgent groups are still causing havoc despite being ill equiped compared to US/ISAF/UK etc Forces....the war on terror (WOT) is 7 years+....and still ongoing....no sign of a breakthrough on a global scale.

(2) The only way to achieve peace and security in the region is to address the reasons and causes of terrorism/insurgencies. Despite the destruction caused by a SMALL GROUP of terrorist in the USA...the overall response has been a knee-jerk reaction (which has resulted in more terrorist groups springing up). This Knee-jerk reaction led to STATE TERRORISM in various countries....over 1 million innocent people lost their lives in Iraq and many hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan and also other regions/Sudan/Somalia etc.

(3) A terrorist is still a Terrorist whether he is an individual or whether it is a State/nation. Hence the phrase "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter".

(4) I have high regard for the training of forces such as the UK/US...especially the UK...I've served on Op Telic 1....but despite the excellent training given.....the results are not impressive. Fire fighting with lightly equipped taliban forces and using helicopter/ air bourne forces with a strike package available.....they should have been defeated a long way ago.

(5) A lesson that most nations forget....in fact not many people learn from history......Afghanistan has shown us that: It is the most easiest country to invade (it took the Russians 24-72 hours to capture Afghanistan) BUT THE MOST HARDEST TO GET OUT. It took many years from the Russians to leave. Western forces are projected to stay in this area for another 15+ years.....

(6) the WOT has resulted in much global instability in key regions....unless western forces take appropriate action......initiate peace (the UK government did with the IRA) and help the region (without malice or ill intention)...then the WOT WILL EAT ALOT OF LIMITED RESOURCES>>>>hence...UK forces not provided with the right equipment due to budget constraints and excessive cost of the WOT.

(7) I do not know what field you are in.....but it seems that on this forum....those that have seen a bit of action...seem to condemn others as arm chair generals......my point is....a word of advise.....sometimes those personnel that are serving...only see from INSIDE the BOX.....and could be helped by those observing from OUTSIDE the Box......get my drift......It is good to get views from all angles.

(8) I'm not able to disclose much information....my field is in a select area.....I have regular updates and brief occassionally.....and as I said...it's not a rosy picture.

(9) Great nations have come and gone.....if you look at history....the end of these great nations was due to their ARROGANCE and PRIDE.

Overall, I'm hoping that peace and security is incorporated in the unstable regions of the world. I hope that the designs of destabilising Pakistan do not succeed. I also pray that GOD Allmighty makes us better human beings/Muslims and serve his creation to the best of our abilities.........

 

[muse]

Despite the amount of resources spent on the war on terror - i.e Iraq and Afghanistan.....the results have been extremely poor.....

Very difficult to argue against, I think by most all measures what you point is essentially true.

despite the excellent training given.....the results are not impressive. Fire fighting with lightly equipped taliban forces and using helicopter/ air bourne forces with a strike package available.....they should have been defeated a long way ago.

Well there have been mitigating factors as well - one may be the use of Guard troops on 6 -8 month rotations and of course the lack of engagements - the enemy has used suicide bombing and all manner of IED instead of engagements which as S2 has pointed out, has always resulted in heavy enemy casualties.

Then ofcourse there are the safe havens - most everybody will agree that without the safe havens it would be a very different story. What might the world we live in be like had Tora Bora been handled differently and AQ's core finished off.

Mullah Omar making off on the back of a motorcycle, incredible.

 

[jeypore]

Very difficult to argue against, I think by most all measures what you point is essentially true.



Well there have been mitigating factors as well - one may be the use of Guard troops on 6 -8 month rotations and of course the lack of engagements - the enemy has used suicide bombing and all manner of IED instead of engagements which as S2 has pointed out, has always resulted in heavy enemy casualties.

Then ofcourse there are the safe havens - most everybody will agree that without the safe havens it would be a very different story. What might the world we live in be like had Tora Bora been handled differently and AQ's core finished off.
Mullah Omar making off on the back of a motorcycle, incredible.

The incident at Tora Bora equates a fraction of the problems phasing Pakistan, One must also agree Mr. Muse that the talibs where willing to accept the ideals of AQ also. Why blame AQ alone? And the predominate actions are done by the Talibs more often then the AQ.

 

[muse]

Certainly, however, Talib like all, calculate loss and gain, and they took what they percieved asa plus where they could find it - recall once India found much in the soviet bloc as Pakistan did in the Western, and did so on the basis of calculations, some calculated better and more often.

I think we should also look at the whole episode as a culmination of a disasterous diplomacy carried on by Pakistan.

On a side note, I just killed a huge Pakistani omelette and Parathas, now coffee and cigarettes, and you say there is no God.

 

[foxhound]

How should Pakistan tackle its security situation?

Psychological Warfare???

What if Pakistan sends the message to its adversaries that if Pakistan becomes unstable and is dismembered as a result of foreign intervention.....then it will do the following: If I go down....I'll take everyone with me!!!

(1) Target Israel - Tel Aviv etc (due to Zionist Lobbies and schemes)

(2) Target neighbouring countries - (due to their interference and cause of instability)

(3) Target energy sectors (i.e Dharan region Saudi Arabi + other Energy resources within its range.....Global economic meltdown)

(4) Target US forces in the vicinity + homeland.....via ballistic missiles....cruise missiles and 'brief case terror groups with WMD material)

(5) YES....Pakistan will face consequences...BUT this is to ensure DETERRENCE!.....Pakistani leadership needs COURAGE and 'balls' to do this!.......no SANE third party will take the risk.......


???....NUTS!......or call my bluff!

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

foxhound, I will choose not to reply to your last post.

However, on a more considered note, here is what I think:

Pakistan needs a paradigm shift in the way it views itself and its role in the world. There are too many in Pakistan who consider it a vanguard of Islamic identity, a protector of muslims not just for India but for the world. This, coupled with a weak government makes it an ideal breeding ground for all sorts of fundamentalist movements. Infact, most of the IRRHABI (thanks S2) movements around the world have strong links with Pakistan.
What does Pakistan supply? It turns its own citizens into sacrificial lambs for the causes of others.

Even Saudi Arabia, the very heart of Islam, has strictly prevented any armed groups from breeding on its territory.
This is simply due to the fact that any organized group with guns is a potential threat to the current government. Unfortunately, Pakistan seems to have forgotten these basics of statehood. I does not matter what their cause is or how just it might seem. It is power without accountability, and it has the potential to be hijacked by the next guy to serve his agenda whatever it may be.

Another important factor is that there are no good militants and bad militants. I have studied this issue for long enough to know that most militant organizations have significant cross-pollination and cooperation. They help each other out. A group fighting for Kashmir will cooperate with a group fighting in FATA, if they get the chance. Those who do not realize this simple fact would be either a loyalist towards either of these groups, or completely unaware of basic human nature.

 

[PeacefulIndian]

How should Pakistan tackle its security situation?

Psychological Warfare???

What if Pakistan sends the message to its adversaries that if Pakistan becomes unstable and is dismembered as a result of foreign intervention.....then it will do the following: If I go down....I'll take everyone with me!!!

Ever thought of going down with Talibanis & militants? At least rest of the world can live peacefully. Just the kind of sick mentality that I was elaborating in some other thread.

I seriously hope you do not represent the majority of your country.

 

[foxhound]

foxhound, I will choose not to reply to your last post.

However, on a more considered note, here is what I think:

Pakistan needs a paradigm shift in the way it views itself and its role in the world. There are too many in Pakistan who consider it a vanguard of Islamic identity, a protector of muslims not just for India but for the world. This, coupled with a weak government makes it an ideal breeding ground for all sorts of fundamentalist movements. Infact, most of the IRRHABI (thanks S2) movements around the world have strong links with Pakistan.
What does Pakistan supply? It turns its own citizens into sacrificial lambs for the causes of others.

Even Saudi Arabia, the very heart of Islam, has strictly prevented any armed groups from breeding on its territory.
This is simply due to the fact that any organized group with guns is a potential threat to the current government. Unfortunately, Pakistan seems to have forgotten these basics of statehood. I does not matter what their cause is or how just it might seem. It is power without accountability, and it has the potential to be hijacked by the next guy to serve his agenda whatever it may be.

Another important factor is that there are no good militants and bad militants. I have studied this issue for long enough to know that most militant organizations have significant cross-pollination and cooperation. They help each other out. A group fighting for Kashmir will cooperate with a group fighting in FATA, if they get the chance. Those who do not realize this simple fact would be either a loyalist towards either of these groups, or completely unaware of basic human nature.

RR.....I was mentioning the various ways of dealing with so called allies that are contributing to Pakistan's instability!

remember the Taliban....aka....were once called the Mujahedeen......and with US help defeated the Russians.....BUT Pakistan was neglected and was not helped by its allies.

no major investment was poured into Afghanistan to help a war torn ravaged country......it seemed that once the US interests were done...it walked away....leaving the rubbish to pakistan to sort out.

The 911 incident was a tradgedy perpetuated by terrorists (who claim were responding to US foreign policies)...but Afghanistan was made the scapegoat....and thus was destroyed.

If the US is serious in pursuing peaceful goals then it needs to help pakistan sincerely.....it needs to understand pakistan's security needs and areas of influence......likewise if the US considers its influence far away...surely Pakistan has a right to ensure that its influence is within its neighbours!

The US has sadly beeing destroyed by Zionist and Christian fundamentalist lobbies....who are causing global insecurity.....read about them!

Pakistan and hence the muslim world is feeling the heat from the non-muslims....a kind of 'crusade' mentality!.....Peace can achieved rapidly if their is a sincere intention....'LIVE and LET LIVE'.

Note, prior the invasion of Afghanistan.....Pakistan was not in the mess that it is in now. The US involvement and failure to bring peace in the region is leading to US leaders to 'scapegoat' pakistan!

 

[foxhound]

Ever thought of going down with Talibanis & militants? At least rest of the world can live peacefully. Just the kind of sick mentality that I was elaborating in some other thread.

I seriously hope you do not represent the majority of your country.

haha.......listen..its called DETTERENCE......no SANE nation will risk destabilizing Pakistan if it new of the consequences......by the way Pakistan is not my country.....


...Just the kind of sick mentality .......well its sick when nations use their 'sweet goody-two-shoo' tongues to destroy others. Pakistan is facing many challenges as a direct result of foreign parties (CIA,MI6/RAW/KHAD...etc).

The trait of the non-muslims is.....WE COME IN PEACE (THEN ITS SHOOT TO KILL).....call your self peaceful???....sly tongues and full of hate for Pakistanis and Muslims in general!.....I seriously hope you do not represent the majority of your country!!!

 

[PeacefulIndian]

haha.......listen..its called DETTERENCE......no SANE nation will risk destabilizing Pakistan if it new of the consequences......by the way Pakistan is not my country.....


...Just the kind of sick mentality .......well its sick when nations use their 'sweet goody-two-shoo' tongues to destroy others. Pakistan is facing many challenges as a direct result of foreign parties (CIA,MI6/RAW/KHAD...etc).

The trait of the non-muslims is.....WE COME IN PEACE (THEN ITS SHOOT TO KILL).....call your self peaceful???....sly tongues and full of hate for Pakistanis and Muslims in general!.....I seriously hope you do not represent the majority of your country!!!

OK - It's official. You are just another troll.

 

[foxhound]

OK - It's official. You are just another troll.

Just kidding....I'm looking at Pakistan's security from their perspective....this is their worst case scenario.......its what you call MAD (as per MAD doctrine - Mutually Assured Destruction)....remember the key word...DETERRENCE!

Remember if detterence fails.....this could lead to conflict on a bigger stage! Peace is the best option.....but Humans liked to learn the hardway!

 

[Omar1984]

If I go down....I'll take everyone with me!!!

I like that!

 

[wtf]

I like that!

Great deal of good that policy did for North Korea!

 

[Omar1984]

Great deal of good that policy did for North Korea!

Well if Pakistan goes down, why not take everyone who caused problems for Pakistan down too especially our neighbor that we fought three wars against.