Atif Mian, Why Pakistan Isn't Getting Better.

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan's elite system is totally not fit for purpose and will never reform itself to become adequate without such a thing happening.

Why? You can test this by asking yourself would Pakistan accept Atif Mian as finance minister. In any other country he would be head hunted to come home and fix his country of origin but we know that is not possible.

The reason why it is not possible for Pakistan to accept Atif Mian are the very reason why the country is fcuked up. The rapaciuous ruling elite, military, bureaucratic, judicial, political and trading class have captured the entire wealth of 220 million people. But how is it possible for max 20 million to enslave 200 million serfs?

Well, it's very simple. Sedate the 200 million with toxic religion which has turned the mass into herd of sheep bleeting away five times a day. Add to that ethnic, clan, caste, regional, religious divisions and you have deadly cocktail that keeps that 200 million into state of colletive zombies.

Leaving the 20 million to live it good !

 

[Communism]

Why? You can test this by asking yourself would Pakistan accept Atif Mian as finance minister. In any other country he would be head hunted to come home and fix his country of origin but we know that is not possible.

The reason why it is not possible for Pakistan to accept Atif Mian are the very reason why the country is fcuked up. The rapaciuous ruling elite, military, bureaucratic, judicial, political and trading class have captured the entire wealth of 220 million people. But how is it possible for max 20 million to enslave 200 million serfs?

Well, it's very simple. Sedate the 200 million with toxic religion which has turned the mass into herd of sheep bleeting away five times a day. Add to that ethnic, clan, caste, regional, religious divisions and you have deadly cocktail that keeps that 200 million into state of colletive zombies.

Leaving the 20 million to live it good !

Run out of loans to bribe those 200 million people with subsidized imports and see how fast they turn on you.

What is keeping those elites in power is exactly the ability to paper over their mistakes due to having strong ties with allies like gulf monarchies, the united states and china.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Run out of loans to bribe those 200 million people with subsidized imports and see how fast they turn on you.

What is keeping those elites in power is exactly the ability to paper over their mistakes due to having strong ties with allies like gulf monarchies, the united states and china.

Agreed but don't forget almost all of these loans or subsidized imports benefit small % of Pakistan - mostly the urban bourgeiose. Most of rural Pakistan recieves little benefit of these loas or for that matter the slum dwellers and those living in margin of the urban areas.

 

[Communism]

Agreed but don't forget almost all of these loans or subsidized imports benefit small % of Pakistan - mostly the urban bourgeiose. Most of rural Pakistan recieves little benefit of these loas or for that matter the slum dwellers and those living in margin of the urban areas.

That's the case in most countries.

It takes suffering to incentivize change.

Change will never come if the ability to paper over mistakes continues.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Run out of loans to bribe those 200 million people with subsidized imports and see how fast they turn on you.

In similiar society as Pakistan and on the same trajectory you would expect millions of poor to begin applying pressure on the elite via left leaning political movements - like you saw rise of communism in many countries which ripped apart the ruling order. Something not many know but even the 1979 Iranian revilution was led hy far left vanguard of the Tudeh party. It's another thing the mullahs out screwed them in the turmoil after fall of Shah.

You see those storm troopers that would tear up the ruing elites exist in Pakistan but invariably that latent force has been sedated instead by the mullahs. Those millions in madaris and cannon fodder of religious parties including TLP would in other societies be marching in a left wing movements led by leftist revolutinaries. In Pakistan that group by design has been neutralized via the taming of the mullah class which has been co-opted into the power structure.

 

[Communism]

In similiar society as Pakistan and on the same trajectory you would expect millions of poor to begin applying pressure on the elite via left leaning political movements - like you saw rise of communism in many countries which ripped apart the ruling order. Something not many know but even the 1979 Iranian revilution was led hy far left vanguard of the Tudeh party. It's another thing the mullahs out screwed them in the turmoil after fall of Shah.

You see those storm troopers that would tear up the ruing elites exist in Pakistan but invariably that latent force has been sedated instead by the mullahs. Those millions in madaris and cannon fodder of religious parties including TLP would in other societies be marching in a left wing movements led by leftist revolutinaries. In Pakistan that group by design has been neutralized via the taming of the mullah class which has been co-opted into the power structure.

While that sounds very true, mullahs require funding as well.

Religion also doesn't work if religion runs out of funding.

Saudi/Gulf monarchies keep the religious part of pakistan funded.

It's pretty much just a facet of the strong allies that are (grudgingly) willing to help the pakistani ruling elite to paper over the problems with infinite loans.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

While that sounds very true, mullahs require funding as well.

True and much of that income stream comes from sources in Saudia, GCC. There is reason why our elite falls at the feet of camels and why many Paks have begun to dress like camels.

 

[GeraltofRivia]

So you have no info.
I don't think you even know most Chinese projects in SL were financed by Chinese commercial banks.
Yeah they were not dumb, that's why all big ticket infra projects failed and SL has to cough up $$ for projects that never took off.

The China lead infrastructure projects in Sri Lanka are not financed by Chinese commercial banks, rather they were funded by EXIM Bank of China, which is a state owned banks. Commercial banks in China cannot purchase foreign government bond or participate foreign financing project.

Below is a disclosure back in 2018 from SL government about concessional loan from EXIM China to finance infrastructure projects in SL.

Three Concessional Loans of USD 492 mn from the EXIM bank of China for Infrastructure Development of Sri Lanka

Department of External Resources

www.erd.gov.lk

Sri Lanka’s economic problem was not driven by infrastructure projects but was driven by financial mismanagement, fragile economical structure, and the large amount of foreign debt. As of 2021, more than 80% of Sri Lanka’s foreign debt was owned by US and European Financial institutions, as well as ADB and India. China has only about 10% of SL’s foreign debt, which is not a major driver of SL debt problem. Below is a summary of Sri Lanka’s foreign debt holding from DW (a German state broadcaster).

 

[MultaniGuy]

I think China should do something dramatic that would be a game changer.

Invest in a $250 billion dollar contract to do something in Pakistan.

I know is asking for a lot, but we need to see tangible benefits.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Invest in a $250 billion dollar contract to do something in Pakistan.

I agree with you. Think of USA. Post WW2 USA literally lifted most of Europe by providing masive aid, market access and US companies investing. The total amount by todays measure would be far more than $250 billiion.

America probably has poured that much, if not more in tiny Greece which has population only slightly larger than Lahore city. Had USA not done that, Greece would have fallen apart or turned in Syria.

However. Underlying this massive US investment lay something else. A strong convergence within those societies to America. That is they were prepared to count themselves as Western, either explicitly or implicitly.

Even countries not strictly speaking part of the Christian European civilzation like Turkey or Japan co-opted into the West and America. Thus they become honorary Western nations.

Think of Turkey which also has been beneficiary of US largesse. Paks think of Turkey as 'brother'. Truth is Turkey is more brother of America as opposed to a having a distant acquaintenace with Pakistan.

What is real litmus test of a realtionship? If a friend stands by you in your hour of need. Well Turks go one step further. Turks are prepared [even under Sultan Erdogan] to send their young boys to die for America under NATO.

Would Turks be prepared to enter such a treaty of mutual defence with Pakistan? like balls.

I guess what I am saying you can't have such close economic, military ties unless you also have similiar cultural, political, social ties.

Now ask yourself what convergence does Pakistani society have with Chinese. We are poles apart. One of Chinese favourite food is snorting pork. They also are rabidly athiest and have no time for religion which they look down as preserve of backward people. With such vast differances in societies China and Pakistan can only have transactional relatiionship.

Which is what we have despite all the silly rhetoric you hear about mountains and oceans.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I agree with you. Think of USA. Post WW2 USA literally lifted most of Europe by providing masive aid, market access and US companies investing. The total amount by todays measure would be far more than $250 billiion.

America probably has poured that much, if not more in tiny Greece which has population only slightly larger than Lahore city. Had USA not done that, Greece would have fallen apart or turned in Syria.

However. Underlying this massive US investment lay something else. A strong convergence within those societies to America. That is they were prepared to count themselves as Western, either explicitly or implicitly.

Even countries not strictly speaking part of the Christian European civilzation like Turkey or Japan co-opted into the West and America. Thus they become honorary Western nations.

Think of Turkey which also has been beneficiary of US largesse. Paks think of Turkey as 'brother'. Truth is Turkey is more brother of America as opposed to a having a distant acquaintenace with Pakistan.

What is real litmus test of a realtionship? If a friend stands by you in your hour of need. Well Turks go one step further. Turks are prepared [even under Sultan Erdogan] to send their young boys to die for America under NATO.

Would Turks be prepared to enter such a treaty of mutual defence with Pakistan? like balls.

I guess what I am saying you can't have such close economic, military ties unless you also have similiar cultural, political, social ties.

Now ask yourself what convergence does Pakistani society have with Chinese. We are poles apart. One of Chinese favourite food is snorting pork. They also are rabidly athiest and have no time for religion which they look down as preserve of backward people. With such vast differances in societies China and Pakistan can only have transactional relatiionship.

Which is what we have despite all the silly rhetoric you hear about mountains and oceans.

People make fun of our peoples because they do not have practical education.

 

[Communism]

What Math?! I don't even read your posts because you are exceptionally dumb

Wow, finally admitting that you are illiterate.

Illiterate and innumerate.

Your pay from your trollmasters must be pretty low with such low qualifications.

 

[Communism]

Nah, just calling you one. An illiterate pretending to be more than you are worth.

You cannot even refute a single point I have ever made in any of our "discussions" with each other.

That shows the gulf of the difference in our knowledge.

You cannot even bring yourself to comprehend how little you know.

 

[Communism]

I think China should do something dramatic that would be a game changer.

Invest in a $250 billion dollar contract to do something in Pakistan.

I know is asking for a lot, but we need to see tangible benefits.

China can invest 100 trillion dollars in pakistan, and it still wouldn't change anything without colonizing pakistan.

Pakistan's problems are 95% internal, and 5% india.

Pakistan literally has such a good international position that it's only international problem is india.

(The U.S. only has negative intentions in pakistan to try to harm China, but doesn't care otherwise).

This can be shown in how Pakistan leveraged the nearly unlimited free money that the U.S. gave pakistan over the years.

Pakistan squandered nearly all of it.

 

[Wood]

Now ask yourself what convergence does Pakistani society have with Chinese. We are poles apart. One of Chinese favourite food is snorting pork. They also are rabidly athiest and have no time for religion which they look down as preserve of backward people. With such vast differances in societies China and Pakistan can only have transactional relatiionship.

China or even the US will invest $250 billion in Pakistan if Pakistanis can innovate to produce scientific or engineering breakthroughs. If Pakistan can produce doctorates that match with the per capita output of the Israelis in quality and quantity, then for sure you will have $250 billion pouring into the country any day. But people of the subcontinent are not that productive and yet want to consume goods that built by other countries that can produce knowledge or goods output at high efficiencies, hence the constant BoP problem.