Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

[mehmeTcc]

Of course i cant but the time will when people will realize how much of a sc-um ataturk was.

You don't know how to discuss a damn, do you? People can follow different ideologies, it doesn't mean you have right to name them as scum.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

1) This statement proves you suffer from delusional syndrome.

2) So you think its justified? Look the sooner you understand that I am not supportive of 1800s khalifat the better it is going to be for the discussion. I support restoration of Khalifat.

3) So you are against the idea of giving minorities their due rights? Ottoman rule was ideal for many many centuries and would still be ideal if traitors and corrupters had not destroyed it.

4) This is where the need arise for restoration not extermination! If you have weak faith in Islam the problem is with you NOT Islam.

5) Nice joke.

6) Of course i cant but the time will when people will realize how much of a sc-um ataturk was.

Myth Buster,

1) Young Turk revolution was a struggle to prevent Ottoman State from collapsing. Or least was a try to bring the best solution for Turkish Nation. They did what they can. We dont have Armenian and Greek problem anymore. Thanks to Ittihad and Terakki party and Ataturk and those who martyred during the those years. Got it?

2) I try to identify Ataturk with Turkishness. I leave some other sides to other people. Think anyway you like.

3) You want a lesson Ottoman history? OKAY. Ottomans exterminated Karamanli Turkmen and mass raped Karamanli women. (Ashikpashazade, Tevarih-i Ali Osman)

Ottomans massacred Akkoyunlu Turkmens. They had cut their ears and heads.(Ashikpashazade, Tevarih-i Ali Osman)

Ottoman Sultan Selim and his Kurdish ally Idris-i Bitlisi massacred Alevi Turkmen in Eastern Anatolia. In his own work he puts the number around 40.000-70.000. (Idris-i Bitlisi, Selimnama)

Kuyucu Murat Pasha massacred large numbers of Turks to surpress Turkish Jelali uprisings. Number is around 100.000. early 17th century.

Fvck off with your Pax Ottomana. You dont know a sh.t about Ottomans, Mr. Super Genius.

4) I leave it to others to decide.

5) In Turkey secularism was never truly implemented. State promoted Sunni Islam. Mosques were and are still run by the government. State pays wages to imams. State run imam hatip schools to educate imams. Other medhebs and religions do not have the same privilige. Turkey is a heterogeneous country where you have to control the religion. Otherwise, we get into an unwanted situation.

6) You dislike him because you think he betrayed Islam. I like him because he saved the lives and the honor of Turkish Nation. I am in a better position to judge, and you should keep your provocative thoughts to yourselves.

 

[Xtremeownage]

??? Dear Mark Sien, what you write above shows that you have understand nothing about Ataturk.

People tend to think about Ataturk as anti Islamic because he abolished the Caliphate and brought secularism. If you just look at the surface you get that picture but in fact Ataturk did the best for Islam in Turkey.

Many people turn a blind eye to the fact that Islam is hostage in the hands of radicals, self declared mullahs, talibans etc. What Ataturk did in Turkey was putting our religion free from the yoke of these hostage takers. I want to remind you that Turkey is secular yet it is a country having the most mosques in the entire world. There is no single village in Turkey without a mosque. People should enjoy their religion, not the teachings of self declared radicals and talibans.

This is total nonsense. The Ottoman Empire was not dealing with such radicals Wahabi extremists during that time. This is a relatively new phenomena.

Most of the administration was Sunnis (Sufis) and even before the World War 1, they made efforts to get rid of Sunni (Sufi) influence. We all know that the heights of Islamic civilization was by the true Muslims of Ahle-Sunnath Wal Jamath (Sufi lovers). They opposed Wahabis/Kharjis throughout history.

Kemal was a terrorist, a lunatic, and a liar. He was a secularist and his behavior was very anti-Islamic. The Young Turks were one of the main factors for the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire defeated the British in the early part of World War 1, but internal aspects like the rise of the Young Turks and the Wahabis in what is modern day Saudi Arabia caused major problems for the Ottoman Empire. Kemal was ANTI-ISLAMIC and ANTI-MUSLIM. You are totally ignorant for not noticing this.

Ataturk abolishing the Caliphate was something that protected Pakistanis as well, yet some are too blind to see. After the Ottoman empire was defeated the Sultan Caliphe turned into a puppet of England (note that after Ataturk abolished the Caliphate the Sultan took a British ship to settle in Britain)

Now to those Ataturk haters: how would a puppet Caliphe of the British served Pakistani's? Just think for once! How would the Caliphe even serve Islam?

Mustafa Kemal burried only what was already dead or better said hostage in British hands!

Total fabrications and outright lies. Stop glorifying this demon named Kemal. He in no way was good for Pakistanis and was very anti-Islamic. It is not so simple. You have been brainwashed by Kemalist lies.

Hi,

The caliphate and the shariah law has done nothing for the muslims in centuries---the caliph was most of the time and incompetent drunkard, a womanizer and a mass murderer against anyone who talked against him.

Shariah law was selective in nature most of the times---most of the shariah law is based on tribal customs of that time---it also has its basis in the biblical law---.

As the present day and the previous day muslims lived in nation states---it is by choice the system they chose to live under---if a caliph was selected from nomadic tribes---and tribal leaders chose a caliph---then current days muslims can have their own selection procedure in place to select a govt of their chosing.

I am glad that Ataturk stepped upto the plate, pulled the nation up from its boot starps and gave an ideology to the nation and its people to move ahead with life.

Muslim history is filled up with the most incompetent caliphs---who could be---except for a handfull of them---there is no pride of performance from any of them.

If a systematic analysis is done---very simply, we will find out the how criminally neglegent these caliphs were of their duties to he nation and to the populace---.

This is total rubbish and garbage.

The Islamic Golden age was under Shariah law.

Modern Saudi Arabia with it's laws is based off of tribal customs, NOT the majority of Islamic history. I am disgusted by your outright lies against Shariah. Scholars have spent decades of their lives studying, learning, and writing about Quran, Islam and compiling the hadiths. Where is the tribal custom here? Imam Abu Hanifa spent over 15 years studying the Quran, Islam, Sunnah, and Hadiths. Imam Hanbal memorized over a million hadiths. This is in NO way tribal. This is sophisticated study and displays a strong intellectual desire and character.

Do not confuse modern Wahabism with traditional Shariah. Under Shariah mathematics, chemistry, science, literature, physics, astronomy, learning, intellect, scholarship, etc. flourished. The Ottomans displayed religious tolerance and spread Islam peacefully. The Sufis spread Islam by love and tolerance.

You do NOT know what a Caliph is. You are confusing some Kings for a Caliph. Being a King does NOT make you a Caliph. The majority of the Caliphs are NOT as you say. The first 4 Caliphs of the Rashidun Caliphate are our example.

Kemal was a liar, traitor, Western puppet and anti-Islamic bigot. Lets not forget that it was the Young Turks that helped bring down the Ottoman Empire. Upon research I realized that blind-nationalism and secularism was at the very core of the Young Turks beliefs. They promote Zionism and persecute Muslims.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

^ wow thats some extremeownage lol

No personal offense to turkish members. I know a lot of turkish people who are good people in nature and have good moral values but when it comes to truth its going to be very hard for people like us (truth seekers) to compromise on such matter.

 

[mehmeTcc]

Lets not forget that it was the Young Turks that helped bring down the Ottoman Empire. Upon research I realized that blind-nationalism and secularism was at the very core of the Young Turks beliefs.

These lines showed that you haven't got any clue about Ottoman history. Do you really think Ottomans give a damn about religion when contolling 3 continents at the same time? They even killed Şeyhülislams because they tried to intervene to state politics. They remembered their so-called "khalif" title when Germans wanted to use their title for disordering British India.
They even used Roman Emperor title for God's sake. It's realpolitics damnit!

Modern Saudi Arabia with it's laws is based off of tribal customs, NOT the majority of Islamic history. I am disgusted by your outright lies against Shariah. Scholars have spent decades of their lives studying, learning, and writing about Quran, Islam and compiling the hadiths. Where is the tribal custom here? Imam Abu Hanifa spent over 15 years studying the Quran, Islam, Sunnah, and Hadiths. Imam Hanbal memorized over a million hadiths. This is in NO way tribal. This is sophisticated study and displays a strong intellectual desire and character.
Do not confuse modern Wahabism with traditional Shariah. Under Shariah mathematics, chemistry, science, literature, physics, astronomy, learning, intellect, scholarship, etc. flourished. The Ottomans displayed religious tolerance and spread Islam peacefully. The Sufis spread Islam by love and tolerance.

Ottomans never ruled by Shariah alone. They even had a constitution.

Kemal was a liar, traitor, Western puppet and anti-Islamic bigot. Lets not forget that it was the Young Turks that helped bring down the Ottoman Empire. Upon research I realized that blind-nationalism and secularism was at the very core of the Young Turks beliefs. They promote Zionism and persecute Muslims.

Young Turks are the ones who introduced Western thoughts and ideas to Ottoman Empire.(and to its successor Turkey) And history proved that "Blind-nationalism" was the only true path for Turks, when they backstabbed by their so-called brothers. What should we do in these times when the people you've called brothers were fighting against you? Should we try Osmanlıcılık for our future?

As Ziya Gökalp, as Mustafa Kemal claimed as his ideas' father, said:
The land where the call to prayer resounds in Turkish,
where those pray understand the meaning of their religion;
the land where Qur'an is learnt in Turkish,
where every man, big or small, knows full well the command of God;
O Son of Turkey!'That land is thy fatherland!

Their ideas were simple: a religion where everyone can understand its basic principles, a land where everyone speaks Turkish. They are like Jacobins, if people wants more and more, they must sacrifice something.
Pan-Turkism ftw!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Liberal fascists

No Headscarf in Turkish uni? WTF? almost everyone Muslim i see in my college (USA) has a headscarf! and meanwhile in Turkey the so called muslim country deprives its women from their right to dress the way they want.
the true about islam part 3 the true about kemal ataturk - YouTube

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Didn't jinnah call ataturk the greatest muslim of the 20th century?i concur.

 

[somebozo]

The caliphate in its final days was highly corrupt and incompetent. The internal economy of Turkey was almost nil and public offices were awarded to the highest bidder who would then enforce more taxes to milk money out of public. The last two Sultans completely shamed the very idealogy of Ottoman Caliphate which was founded on the principles of citizen welfare first.

Attaturk was the greatest leader Muslim world has ever seen!

 

[somebozo]

This is total nonsense. The Ottoman Empire was not dealing with such radicals Wahabi extremists during that time. This is a relatively new phenomena.

Most of the administration was Sunnis (Sufis) and even before the World War 1, they made efforts to get rid of Sunni (Sufi) influence. We all know that the heights of Islamic civilization was by the true Muslims of Ahle-Sunnath Wal Jamath (Sufi lovers). They opposed Wahabis/Kharjis throughout history.

Kemal was a terrorist, a lunatic, and a liar. He was a secularist and his behavior was very anti-Islamic. The Young Turks were one of the main factors for the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire defeated the British in the early part of World War 1, but internal aspects like the rise of the Young Turks and the Wahabis in what is modern day Saudi Arabia caused major problems for the Ottoman Empire. Kemal was ANTI-ISLAMIC and ANTI-MUSLIM. You are totally ignorant for not noticing this.

Total fabrications and outright lies. Stop glorifying this demon named Kemal. He in no way was good for Pakistanis and was very anti-Islamic. It is not so simple. You have been brainwashed by Kemalist lies.



This is total rubbish and garbage.

The Islamic Golden age was under Shariah law.

Modern Saudi Arabia with it's laws is based off of tribal customs, NOT the majority of Islamic history. I am disgusted by your outright lies against Shariah. Scholars have spent decades of their lives studying, learning, and writing about Quran, Islam and compiling the hadiths. Where is the tribal custom here? Imam Abu Hanifa spent over 15 years studying the Quran, Islam, Sunnah, and Hadiths. Imam Hanbal memorized over a million hadiths. This is in NO way tribal. This is sophisticated study and displays a strong intellectual desire and character.

Do not confuse modern Wahabism with traditional Shariah. Under Shariah mathematics, chemistry, science, literature, physics, astronomy, learning, intellect, scholarship, etc. flourished. The Ottomans displayed religious tolerance and spread Islam peacefully. The Sufis spread Islam by love and tolerance.

You do NOT know what a Caliph is. You are confusing some Kings for a Caliph. Being a King does NOT make you a Caliph. The majority of the Caliphs are NOT as you say. The first 4 Caliphs of the Rashidun Caliphate are our example.

Kemal was a liar, traitor, Western puppet and anti-Islamic bigot. Lets not forget that it was the Young Turks that helped bring down the Ottoman Empire. Upon research I realized that blind-nationalism and secularism was at the very core of the Young Turks beliefs. They promote Zionism and persecute Muslims.

I would only suggest that your mind is "xtremely pwn3d" and you dont know basics of History about Ottoman and Islam. It is safe to argue that you are some hari pagri moron! Based on the bunch of BS you are propagating, these are standard lines of teachings at faizan e madina!


the implications for Pakistan is that that religious morons have to stop debating Turkish history with opinionated attitudes. The installation of "khilafah" did not really work out in Afghanistan. I find the attitude of some Pakistanis extremely ridiculous!

AtaTurk was a great man and a great leader, time to learn a few things from him.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Ataturk understood the basic 2 things for a modern state,education and industrialization and basic civil liberty for all citizens irrespective of race,religion and gender.Once u get these 3 main foundations of nation state in place u can use any law or follow any idealogy.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The caliphate in its final days was highly corrupt and incompetent. The internal economy of Turkey was almost nil and public offices were awarded to the highest bidder who would then enforce more taxes to milk money out of public. The last two Sultans completely shamed the very idealogy of Ottoman Caliphate which was founded on the principles of citizen welfare first.

correct

Attaturk was the greatest leader Muslim world has ever seen!

WRONG! Attaturk had a chance to transform ottoman and carry on the legacy instead he chose to FIGHT against the principle instead of resolving the problem. Attaturk Jinnah etc may be great Secular leaders but CAN NOT BE slightly associated with Muslim leaders whose job is to make sure that they rule according to what Allah has revealed instead of Satan's foot path.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I would only suggest that your mind is "xtremely pwn3d" and you dont know basics of History about Ottoman and Islam. It is safe to argue that you are some hari pagri moron! Based on the bunch of BS you are propagating, these are standard lines of teachings at faizan e madina!


the implications for Pakistan is that that religious morons have to stop debating Turkish history with opinionated attitudes. The installation of "khilafah" did not really work out in Afghanistan. I find the attitude of some Pakistanis extremely ridiculous!

AtaTurk was a great man and a great leader, time to learn a few things from him.

Typical liberal fascist! When you guys lose an argument you resort to name callings such as "mullah cr@p" etc etc. I wonder how you would have reacted had the women been your mother sister daughter of wife who were forced to wear immodest dress.

 

[TR.1]

Too much mentally ill people with no idea of history here just talking like they know extreme brainwashed, nothing can change them that Xownage needs to read some books or even Google will help

 

[TR.1]

Myth buster can you tell me what you doing in USA? Just thinking what I said before criticizing.

 

[Hashshāshīn]

Yes, it is better to have an Attaturk legacy than a caliphate.