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Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian ‘occupation’ of Kashmir

You better understand some security forces fall under the jurisdiction of the government, whereas others fall under the jurisdiction of the military. Now I'm asking you again, when has the Pakistan Army been deployed in Karachi or Balochistan?

Doesn't matter what jurisdiction and what corps as long as you keep crushing indigenous movement by virtue of arms, those who getting mowed down don't fret over semantics.
 
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Now I'm asking you again, when has the Pakistan Army been deployed in Karachi or Balochistan?

Way back in 1948 to invade Balochistan, arrest the Khan of Kalat, take him to Karachi at gunpoint and make him sign the accession document and to crush the rebellion of Prince Abdul Karim Khan to present for crushing the Fifth Baloch war of Independence..
 
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You better understand some security forces fall under the jurisdiction of the government, whereas others fall under the jurisdiction of the military. Now I'm asking you again, when has the Pakistan Army been deployed in Karachi or Balochistan?

These jingoistic Indians keep derailing the thread by inviting Mr. Agha Khan, Mr. Modi in China, calling Arundhati Roy fugly, Balochistan, Karachi, FATA,... :rofl: :rofl:

There are no UN resolutions against Pakistan on Balochistan. There are no protests of Balochis who want a plebiscite on independence from Pakistan.

There is only one Balochi who wants independence for Balochistan and he is hiding in Switzerland. :woot:
 
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When a people declare secession from a state and the state refuses to accept it and sends an army, then the territoty becomes an 'occupied territory'.
Wrong.

You have put the cart before the horse. What is needed to be examined is if 'peoples' (note the 's') have the right to declare secession from a State, and under what circumstances. This is to be viewed along with the State's right of territorial integrity. And it is in this context I had asked the question, if Kashmir's accession to India was illegitimate i.e. in violation of any extant law.

If the territorial integration of Kashmir is good in law, then India has de jure sovereignty over Kashmir. That means, India's right to territorial integrity is good in law as well. Sending an army to such a territory, ostensibly in rebellion, is not an act of 'occupation' but is an exercise of State's right (e.g. PA in Balochistan).

This leads us to examine if Kashmiris have the right to self-determination. UN Millennium resolution clearly identifies right to self determination under two conditions - 'colonial domination' and 'foreign occupation'. Kashmir fulfills none of the conditions.

Q.E.D

The state's 'sovereignty' is only enforced at the point of a gun.
May be so. The question however is not how it is being enforced. The question is if State has the right to do so.


Both PR and Kashmir are officially classified as 'administered' by their respective powers. The situation is entirely analogous.
Not really. The so called official classification is merely for convenience of identification. UN officially doesn't recognize these terminologies, although it uses these for convenience. UN maps clearly label the entire Kashmir (Indian and Pakistan) as 'Jammu and Kashmir'.
The residents of Kashmir wouldn't pick up guns either if their peaceful demands had been respected. They gave peace a chance for 40+ years.
Actually, before 1989 their demand had very little currency in Kashmir. It started only with a little 'help' from their good friends.
 
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I already posted a link showing 66% of people in the valley want to secede from India.

Can I get the link again?the thread has become quite long and its getting difficult to browse through.
 
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These jingoist Indians keep derailing the thread by inviting Mr. Agha Khan, Mr. Modi in China, calling Arundhati Roy fugly, Balochistan, Karachi, FATA,... :rofl: :rofl:

There are no UN resolutions against Pakistan on Balochistan. There are no protests of Balochis who want a plebiscite on independence from Pakistan.

There is only one Balochi who wants independence for Balochistan and he is hiding in Switzerland. :woot:

Again Mr.Shah according to your ThinkTank , if a set of people unilaterally declare secession and if the Army is sent to crush that then automatically the territory becomes "occupied and disputed" and Balochistan satisfies both the criteria.
 
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And those 34% includes hindu families migrating from different parts of India to Indian Occupied Kashmir.

It really should have done, but our myopic leaders void us of that choice.

However that survey doesn't include exiled Kashmiri Pundits.
 
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Doesn't matter what jurisdiction and what corps as long as you keep crushing indigenous movement by virtue of arms, those who getting mowed down don't fret over semantics.

There is a fundamental difference between regular security personnel & military personnel, which I have exposed you to. Pakistan has regular security personnel in Karachi & Balochistan, like India has in its Naxal hit states. Now India has 700,000 military troops & paramilitaries, completely different to what you have in your Naxal hit areas. You have CRPFs in your Naxal areas. Pakistan has about 120,000 military troops & paramilitary in FATA & KPK. Don't talk about things you know nothing about.
 
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There is a fundamental difference between regular security personnel & military personnel, which I have exposed you to. Pakistan has regular security personnel in Karachi & Balochistan, like India has in its Naxal hit states. Now India has 700,000 military troops & paramilitaries, completely different to what you have in your Naxal hit areas. Pakistan has about 120,000 military troops & paramilitary in FATA & KPK. Don't talk about things you know little about.

So according to your logic as Indian Army has more personnel than Pakistan Army - Baluchistan, KP and FATA is justified but Kashmir is not.

You better go into your bot mode and start posting from random missionary site, logic is not exactly your strong point.
 
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A marxist Leninist terrorist group that set of 100 bombs from '74 to '83 and has been dissolved two decades back. I see no analogy with Kashmir.

It doesn't matter if they were cat worshippers. The point is that they opposed US control of PR and did so with military force.

Goalpost shift.

The question was never Brutalising..Was it ? It was always about Democracy vs Territoral Integrity and which took primacy..The actions of US, UK, Spain, Lanka clearly show the Territorial Integrity trumped democracy.

No shift. I was pointing out the difference in the way these countries approached the problem. It was in the context of your reference to armed resistance.

Also, I notice you consistently put US in there, as if the 200 year old civil war has any relevance today. Try using the more contemporary example of Puerto Rico to see how a true democracy handles it.

As for Britain and Spain, it just shows they hadn't lost their colonial mindset even towards their own people. Ironic that India should use ex-colonists as a role model instead of more progressive examples like the US and Canada.

Sudan was 'forced' to allow. The Janjaweed were in no mood to let go of the supposedly inferior blacks. But then...

Either way, that's the democractic approach.

You are more than welcome to help them..If that does not sink your country even deeper..

We are not the world's policeman; we can only help people who explicitly ask our help.

But I understand India was more than willing to help the Sri Lankan Tamils by creating/funding/training the LTTE. That is, until they went crazy and started causing trouble within India itself.

And they can do what the Punjabis,Sindhis,Bengalis,Biharis did in 1947..Liquidating the assets and packing their bags.




That is what happened during Partition and that is what will happen if Partition is to be completed. NO new set of criteria.

You are just repeating yourself, so this is not going anywhere.

Boots that are required to keep the rats crawling in from the other side in check. You dont have that problem.

Already debunked. You don't need 500K troops to catch stragglers across the border.

The link I already posted showed how the army is systematically engaged in brutalizing the civilians population and gets rewarded monetarily and senioritywise for 'kills'. Even when the 'kills' are innocent civilians falsely accused of terrorism.
 
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Revoke AFSPA, demilitarise JK: Arundhati

news_13_11_2011_3.jpg


‘People In Kashmir Should Be Given Right To Self-Determination’
PRESS TRUST OF INDIA
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New York, Nov 12: Noted Indian writer Arundhati Roy has said revoking the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from Jammu and Kashmir and demilitarisation is required to ensure the right of self-determination to the people of the state. She said a country cannot call itself a democracy if people are forced to live under military rule.
“I want to say unambiguously that I do not think any country that calls itself a democracy has the right to force people to remain in it in a militaristic way, the way that India is doing in order to prove that it’s a secular country,” Roy said at a panel discussion on ‘Kashmir: The Case for Freedom’ at the Asia Society here.
“I think that the people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination, they have the right to choose who they want to be and how they want to be. The first step would be to demilitarise, to withdraw this absolutely unbelievable law the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA),” Roy said.
She said Kashmir is one of the most protracted and bloody occupations in the world and one of the most ignored. “While India brutalizes Kashmir in so many ways, that occupation brutalizes the Indians,” she said and called for demilitarization of Kashmir as a step towards peace in the region. “Why the international community doesn’t see that when you have two nuclear-armed states, like Pakistan and India, there couldn’t be a better thing than a buffer state like Kashmir between them, instead of it being a conflict that is going to spark a nuclear war.”
She lamented that so little is known about the “atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children.”
“More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with check points at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities. The huge Indian presence is in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq,” she pointed out.
Roy attributed the apathy towards Kashmir, especially in the western world, to their pursuit of commercial interests in India where they were more eager to sell their goods than human rights.
“Even as the world speaks about the Arab spring—three years ago there was massive unarmed uprising in the streets of Kashmir,” she said, adding that the security forces there were not looking away; “they were killing young children.”
“In Kashmir freedom of speech is non-existent and human rights abuses were routine. Elections were rigged and press controlled and the lives of Kashmiris were made miserable by gun-toting security personnel,” Roy said and added that disappearances were almost a daily occurrence in Kashmir as also kidnapping, arrests, fake encounters and torture. “Mass graves have been discovered and the conscience of the world remained unstirred,” she said.
She reminded that before his election, President Barack Obama had pledged to resolve the international dispute of Kashmir between Pakistan and India. But seeing “consternation” in India over the remark, Obama hasn’t said a word about Kashmir since, she said, adding that he was more interested in selling military aircraft and Boeings to India.
Roy said India had also successfully used the argument that if it it gave up Kashmir, another Islamic state would emerge - a prospect the West feared. “That’s why India had made no effort to bring back to the Valley the Kashmiri Pandits who fled at the height of armed uprising in the state. Aren’t 7000,000 troops enough to protect the Pandits?” she asked.
Two other Indian writers - Pankaj Mishra and a PhD student, Muhammad Junaid, from Kashmir - also deplored the fact that the international community gave such little attention to the suffering of the Kashmiri people. (with inputs from other agencies)

Lastupdate on : Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:30:00 Mecca time
Lastupdate on : Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:30:00 GMT
Lastupdate on : Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:00:00 IST

Revoke AFSPA demilitarise JK Arundhati Lastupdate:- Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

This article is from Kashmiri's media in IOK. This is not Indian biased media.
 
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So according to your logic as Indian Army has more personnel than Pakistan Army - Baluchistan, KP and FATA is justified but Kashmir is not.

Kid, the Pakistan Army is not involved in Balochistan. How many times have I told you :hitwall:

I never said anything like that. You are free to have your troops there. Just try to learn the difference between regular security personnel & military personnel before you start to talk about secessionist movements.
 
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66% of the people of valley. My question is then, what about people of Jammu, People of Ladakh. Doesn't their opinion count as well? Or Pakistani members will want to ignore those regions simply because they are non Muslim majority areas? What about Kargil, Drass and Batalik?

Also didn't the UN resolution include that Kashmir areas that are under Pakistani control now? And what about the UN resolution condition that Pakistani forces have to fall back to their Sep 1947 position for the referendum to take place?
 
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Again Mr.Shah according to your ThinkTank , if a set of people unilaterally declare secession and if the Army is sent to crush that then automatically the territory becomes "occupied and disputed" and Balochistan satisfies both the criteria.

The Army hasn't been sent to Balochistan, the Frontier Corp is. Big difference. The Frontier Corp falls under the jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry, not the Pakistan military/armed forces. It's similar to the CRPFs in your Naxal areas.
 
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Kid, the Pakistan Army is not involved in Balochistan. How many times have I told you :hitwall:

I never said anything like that. You are free to have your troops there. Just try to learn the difference between regular security personnel & military personnel before you start to talk about secessionist movements.

You should go back and read all the posts again, this time slowly.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

The Army hasn't been sent to Balochistan, the Frontier Corp is. Big difference. The Frontier Corp falls under the jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry, not the Pakistan military/armed forces.

So does the Rashtriya Rifles.
 
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