ARMY-2015 starts in Moscow. Gen Raheel Sharif present with a strong delegation

[Desert Fox]

The same way China lets us purhcase billions, the same way we purchased the Erieyes, the same way we purchase the Cobras.. Funds from the countries themselves.

The Erieye purchase was financed by a Swedish bank.. in essence the money never left Sweden.. but it still helped keep the jobs running whilst brining in the interest as the income.

The JF-17(and a host of other projects).. financed by China.. the Money then keeps a program with Chinese stake running whilst literally paying for itself(in more ways than one).

The AH-1Zs.. when and if bought.. the amounts from the CSF and elsewhere.. the money comes back to the US.

That is how it is done...and will be done to a large extend in Russia.. a LC will be issued and a partial loan taken.. work will ensure Russian mouths are fed.. and economy pushed around its wheel.. and money made from the interest. TADA!!!

Well if that's how it works then i hope we do get some Terminator BMPT's. These would be a nice addition to our armored forces as they would increase our anti-infantry capabilities:

 

[ito]

The same way China lets us purhcase billions, the same way we purchased the Erieyes, the same way we purchase the Cobras.. Funds from the countries themselves.

The Erieye purchase was financed by a Swedish bank.. in essence the money never left Sweden.. but it still helped keep the jobs running whilst brining in the interest as the income.

The JF-17(and a host of other projects).. financed by China.. the Money then keeps a program with Chinese stake running whilst literally paying for itself(in more ways than one).

The AH-1Zs.. when and if bought.. the amounts from the CSF and elsewhere.. the money comes back to the US.

That is how it is done...and will be done to a large extend in Russia.. a LC will be issued and a partial loan taken.. work will ensure Russian mouths are fed.. and economy pushed around its wheel.. and money made from the interest. TADA!!!

I guess he is asking something different. If India buys say $5 billion worth of weapons from Russia every years. Would Russia ignore India to sell $1 billion weapons to Pakistan? If lets say Russia ignores India, who would fill the remaining $4 billion gap. Am I right? @Desert Fox

 

[Spectre]

No, the Russians dont love India as much as the Indians like to think. They love what India offers them; access to the Indian ocean and a constant source of income from weapons sales. Now if there is a direct threat to those sales from the United States(nothing cheeses off Russia more)... then there is a need to compensate for it. This isnt Russia just trying to make up for lost sales in India, it is also telling India that if you go to our chief rival.. we will go to yours; and that Pakistan has no problem with exploiting nor the Russians in giving.

Respectfully I disagree.

This is not a zero sum game where Russians give us a with us or against us ultimatum.

Russians still have billions of $$ worth contracts outstanding with us. Sukhois, FGFA, Brahmos, etc in addition to spare parts and service requirements. They won't jeopardize that for a couple of hundred million worth sales to Pakistan. Pakistan cannot be a replacement for India as it does not have economic heft to counter Indian buying power.

Strategically speaking Russia needs India to counter its growing dependency on China. Also Indians have never gone again Russia in UN and other forums despite of tremendous american pressure.

India was one of the few countries which supported Russian actions in Crimea even China was ambiguous about it. Crimean leader visited India with Putin in what was his only trip abroad till now. In short the Russians need the huge Indian market and legitimacy the support of democratic regime of India brings them in international forums, NO other country can offer them this combination

India knows it too that's why this game of courting Pakistan is useless.

The Russian relationship with Pakistan would purely be tactical one with an Indian veto over sales of weapons which can seriously undercut Indian security concerns in foreseeable future.

@nair, @Nicky G

 

[kaonalpha]

Well if that's how it works then i hope we do get some Terminator BMPT's. These would be a nice addition to our armored forces as they would increase our anti-infantry capabilities:

View attachment 230244​

The Terminator series was discontinued

 

[SQ8]

I guess he is asking something different. If India buys say $5 billion worth of weapons from Russia every years. Would Russia ignore India to sell $1 billion weapons to Pakistan? If lets say Russia ignores India, who would fill the remaining $4 billion gap. Am I right? @Desert Fox

Yes they would. Besides the childish tone in your post regarding weapons procurement and basic economics, the Russians are bleeding economically due to the sanctions and wish to start expanding their influence back into central Asia and the deep sea. They see the Chinese Silk Road as a benefit, and (contrary to your juvenile idea that somehow if Russia does get a billion in orders from Moscow.. India will behave like a 16 year old girl and end its $4 billion payment).. the Russians are forcing India's hand to return some of that lost $1 billion back into Indian payments whilst making up the rest selling to Pakistan.. albeit with systems that wont effect the balance as such but will still make India want to ensure that Pakistan gets nothing more than it would need to spend beyond what it has planned to cope for it.

In even simpler terms for you.. it is not your street cricket match where a player picked off the street to bowl a single over will cause the star bowler to leave the game entirely.. but it will cause him to throw a tantrum and bowl even better to make the new entrant look like a pansy.
They know how Indians think the Russians and the psyche to shoot themselves in the foot if it comes to making Pakistan suffer.

Respectfully I disagree.

This is not a zero sum game where Russians give us a with us or against us ultimatum.

Russians still have billions of $$ worth contracts outstanding with us. Sukhois, FGFA, Brahmos, etc in addition to spare parts and service requirements. They won't jeopardize that for a couple of hundred million worth sales to Pakistan. Pakistan cannot be a replacement for India as it does not have economic heft to counter Indian buying power.

Strategically speaking Russia needs India to counter its growing dependency on China. Also Indians have never gone again Russia in UN and other forums despite of tremendous american pressure.

India was one of the few countries which supported Russian actions in Crimea even China was ambiguous about it. Crimean leader visited India with Putin in what was his only trip abroad till now. In short the Russians need the huge Indian market and legitimacy the support of democratic regime of India brings them in international forums, NO other country can offer them this combination

India knows it too that's why this game of courting Pakistan is useless.

The Russian relationship with Pakistan would purely be tactical one with an Indian veto over sales of weapons which can seriously undercut Indian security concerns in foreseeable future.

@nair, @Nicky G

Read below before coming to the usual desi jingoistic conclusion that is expected of all south asians who use about three brain cells and the remaining amount is compensated by adrenaline. Only the last line is actually of any use in the narrative, the rest is just you being exactly what the Indian government is regarding this move; a tantrum throwing child.

 

[Zarvan]

Well if that's how it works then i hope we do get some Terminator BMPT's. These would be a nice addition to our armored forces as they would increase our anti-infantry capabilities:

View attachment 230244​

Yes we have bad economy but slowly we should increase size of Armed Forces and Para Military.Para Military also should be equipped with Anti Tank Vehicles and MLRs along with IFV you mentioned

@Horus @RescueRanger and others

 

[janu.bravo]

strange comment.


Please remember history.

Exactly...but there is a difference between history and past mistakes.

 

[ito]

Yes they would. Besides the childish tone in your post regarding weapons procurement and basic economics, the Russians are bleeding economically due to the sanctions and wish to start expanding their influence back into central Asia and the deep sea. They see the Chinese Silk Road as a benefit, and (contrary to your juvenile idea that somehow if Russia does get a billion in orders from Moscow.. India will behave like a 16 year old girl and end its $4 billion payment).. the Russians are forcing India's hand to return some of that lost $1 billion back into Indian payments whilst making up the rest selling to Pakistan.. albeit with systems that wont effect the balance as such but will still make India want to ensure that Pakistan gets nothing more than it would need to spend beyond what it has planned to cope for it.

In even simpler terms for you.. it is not your street cricket match where a player picked off the street to bowl a single over will cause the star bowler to leave the game entirely.. but it will cause him to throw a tantrum and bowl even better to make the new entrant look like a pansy.
They know how Indians think the Russians and the psyche to shoot themselves in the foot if it comes to making Pakistan suffer.

Calm down, having worked as buy side analyst, I can assure you that I am very good at dissecting complex businesses to its minute details to understand what creates value in that company before going in for negotiations to decide to purchase the company. In finance, we are taught cash flows are king. Any business decisions that reduces cash flow to a company is value destruction. Companies that indulge in value destruction go out of the business Nobody is saying Russian love Indians, but all love money. That is where India is much more valuable to Russia than Pakistan can ever be.

 

[Spectre]

Read below before coming to the usual desi jingoistic conclusion that is expected of all south asians who use about three brain cells and the remaining amount is compensated by adrenaline. Only the last line is actually of any use in the narrative, the rest is just you being exactly what the Indian government is regarding this move; a tantrum throwing child.

I think that I have clearly stated that neither Russia or India are going to replace each other as its not zero sum game.

Mature countries don't throw a hissy fit everytime their allies transact with their opponents. I am yet to see any tantrums from Indian Govt regarding your dealings with Russian nor do i expect to see one.

India should be ok as long as economical and defense ties don't negatively effect India's conventional and non-conventional capabilities to deal with Pakistan. Anything Russians sell to Pakistan to help them better deal with terrorists and other malcontents operating within are in-fact most welcome.

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

Pakistani delegation in Russia is good for both countries. It will end up as a win win situation in future for both countries. With the second cold war creeping along in very low gear, Pakistan should make decisions in its best national interest. So far I think we are doing fine.

 

[Arsalan]

"Pakistan shall only develop(by hook or by crook) equipment that it cannot procure reliably(by hook or by crook) and only so if the development is more cost effective than procuring the item".

Now this seems to be a VERY SENSIBLE policy to me!! isn't it?
We Pakistani are generally a bit too obsessed with RnD and ToT that often overlook that fact that getting ToT for an attack helicopter that we will procure only in limited numbers is NOT FEASIBLE specially when we can get it from a reliable source at attractive prices. Same goes for LOTS of other stuff.
Quite Sensible!!

Correction......because we fell in the lap of the west, we ourselves shortsightedly torpedoed our chances of a patch up with the Soviets. Commies is the wrong group to blame here, we developed our relationship with the Commie China and totalitarian North Korea, didn't we?
Soviets really wanted Pakistan for their geo-strategic gains...imagine Afghanistan in their lap and Pakistan offering access to them right at the mouth of the Persian Gulf....in the face of USA. Bhutto did make some gains on the Soviet front, but thanks to Zia ul haq, that all went in vain.

Actually we cannot overlook the fact that at THAT time the west came to us first and offered much more then the Ruskies did and thus we developed an alliance with them, alliance with he west meant we are enemies of Russian and there goes all the geo strategic gains that the Russians were planning. Cannot term that shortsighted on our side, however you can term it as long term planning on part of west who approached us first and offered support in VARIOUS fields.

 

[Sage]

Here is .. for once and for all.. the Pakistani policy on R&D.. THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM THE INDIAN POLICY ON R&D and will remain so for good reasons so lets memorize it and understand it for all other questions that pop into our mind of that sort.


"Pakistan shall only develop(by hook or by crook) equipment that it cannot procure reliably(by hook or by crook) and only so if the development is more cost effective than procuring the item".

Pehli daffa koi dangg ki baat ke hay ....

 

[Donatello]

Actually we cannot overlook the fact that at THAT time the west came to us first and offered much more then the Ruskies did and thus we developed an alliance with them, alliance with he west meant we are enemies of Russian and there goes all the geo strategic gains that the Russians were planning. Cannot term that shortsighted on our side, however you can term it as long term planning on part of west who approached us first and offered support in VARIOUS fields.

If our policy makers (read Generals) would've been smart, we would have been able to flirt with both the West and the Eastern bloc.......we made our relationship with China, didn't we? Mao Zedong was actually a bigger opponent to re-rapprochement with the west under Communist ideals, than his Soviet counter part, Khrushchev. Egypt managed that, so stopped us?

And we are doing that now........China, Russia, USA.

 

[Arsalan]

If our policy makers (read Generals) would've been smart, we would have been able to flirt with both the West and the Eastern bloc.......we made our relationship with China, didn't we? Mao Zedong was actually a bigger opponent to re-rapprochement with the west under Communist ideals, than his Soviet counter part, Khrushchev. Egypt managed that, so stopped us?

And we are doing that now........China, Russia, USA.

Well that was possible if we were extra smart,,, but at that time, Pakistan was a new state, the leadership was lacking and perhaps we thought the the world will be a fair place so didn't tried to play over smart
Anyway, I do agree that Pakistan alliance with Russia makes much more sense and believe me or not, the world map would have been different if that was the case, at least the world geo political situation would have been totally different.
Anyway, better late than never, still it is high time that we improve our trade and strategic relations with Russia, i am not asking to cut off ties with the west but lets play smart now and have good relations with both blocks. I hope this can be done and will be done in years to come (sooner now)

 

[Zarvan]

MI-35 and MI-28 and new MI-38 will give us a massive boost