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STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE

(FOURTEENTH LOK SABHA)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
DEMANDS FOR GRANTS
(2007-2008)
SIXTEENTH REPORT​

New issues?
3.42 During oral evidence, on the problems faced by MBT Arjun during trials, the representative of the Ministry apprised the Committee :-

“……… I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do
it ?”


RECOMMENDATION SL. NO. 15
3.45 The Committee are perturbed to note that the Government of India accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974. Even after the lapse of more than 34 years, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks by the users, only 15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi. Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should think seriously as to how to comply Arjun’s requirement in a time bound manner.
 
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STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE

(FOURTEENTH LOK SABHA)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
DEMANDS FOR GRANTS
(2007-2008)
SIXTEENTH REPORT​

New issues?
3.42 During oral evidence, on the problems faced by MBT Arjun during trials, the representative of the Ministry apprised the Committee :-

“……… I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do
it ?”


RECOMMENDATION SL. NO. 15
3.45 The Committee are perturbed to note that the Government of India accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974. Even after the lapse of more than 34 years, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks by the users, only 15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi. Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should think seriously as to how to comply Arjun’s requirement in a time bound manner.

Link please!
 
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watched the first of the videos, it didn't really show much but here is what I was able to see.

1- digital touch screen computers for the driver. Big plus for the individual tank in combat. But full color throught the tank including the fire control system would allow the integration of a superior battlefield management system.

2- Hull storage of extra rounds. the 120mm rifled uses the bagged charge system so I am assuming the combustibles are kept in the turret bustle. while the penetrators, HEAT, and HESH rounds are kept in both the turret and hull (in armored boxes) but I could be wrong.
 
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watched the first of the videos, it didn't really show much but here is what I was able to see.

1- digital touch screen computers for the driver. Big plus for the individual tank in combat. But full color throught the tank including the fire control system would allow the integration of a superior battlefield management system.

2- Hull storage of extra rounds. the 120mm rifled uses the bagged charge system so I am assuming the combustibles are kept in the turret bustle. while the penetrators, HEAT, and HESH rounds are kept in both the turret and hull (in armored boxes) but I could be wrong.

Whats your view on Arjun after the latest round of testing. Will it nd up with IA?
 
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I thik India needs this tank even though it is technologically obsolete as far as electronics go, the T-90 and T-72 Ajeya are too closely matched by the Al Khalid and T-80UD. But will the Russian money win out? I am convinced base don some of the idiotic nonsensical claims and buercratic manuvering that the Russians are tryign to kill the project.
 
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I thik India needs this tank even though it is technologically obsolete as far as electronics go, the T-90 and T-72 Ajeya are too closely matched by the Al Khalid and T-80UD. But will the Russian money win out? I am convinced base don some of the idiotic nonsensical claims and buercratic manuvering that the Russians are tryign to kill the project.

Pls tell me on what grounds you are claiming MBT Arjun inferiority with all otherMBT you have mentioned above. On what sorts of technical specification you have arrive at this conclusion. It is wide known fact that MBT Arjun has suffered delay and cost overrrun, but on what basis all this shortfall makes MBT Arjun obsolete. Since its inception, Indian have come across all sorts of technical glitches, but all they have been ractified on rountine basis. Just because T-90,T-72,T-80ud and MBT-2000 are operationalized, is that mean they are superior to MBT Arjun in all its aspects?. There are several articales recently published about MBT Arjuns performance parameteres, it has screaming that MBT Arjun has succeded in meeting all its performance parameters as specify by IA. Now IA is also quite relucant to place their top of front line tank against MBT Arjun. IA relucantance does't imply MBT Arjun is obsoleate. IA seems to have quite irritated with ever increasing technical glitches that came across during previous user trial. DRDO has recently shown kind of confidence like never before in respect of Arjun capability.

As far as Russian behaviour is concerned in respect MBT Arjun, it is not uncommon. Since on previous occassion as well during HF-24 Marut project they declined to provide powerful engine to increase it engine thrust, becuase russian know very well that with the HF-24 Marut is direct competitor to MIG-21.
 
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Pls tell me on what grounds you are claiming MBT Arjun inferiority with all otherMBT you have mentioned above. On what sorts of technical specification you have arrive at this conclusion.

Before you open your big mouth read what he wrote exactly and read his other posts to understand his credentials.
 
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I thik India needs this tank even though it is technologically obsolete as far as electronics go, the T-90 and T-72 Ajeya are too closely matched by the Al Khalid and T-80UD. But will the Russian money win out? I am convinced base don some of the idiotic nonsensical claims and buercratic manuvering that the Russians are tryign to kill the project.

Electronics. Well wouldnt it be easier to change the electronics part than making structural changes. Most of the negative remarks have come for its weight, size/dimension/suspension. Like whatw e do for planes cant we/India induct it and wait for the mark2 to be developed and then return the mark 1 to be upgraded?
 
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Bull, rather than getting excited, accept the fact that the quality issues are what preventing the Arjun in IA. The trails were conducted over a period of no less than 15 years.

The problem with DRDO is the lack of visionary people like of Sarabhai, Homi Bhaba, Abdul kalam, who laid solid foundation for Space, atomic power and Missile Systems.

Unfortunately the people who lead(if you call that) LCA and Arjun are midgets, in front of the towering personalities mentioned above. Moreover they lack the conviction and Political backing the trioka had.

So stop blaming army and IAF for the lack of enthusiasm. No one(including me) cast aspiration on the capability on Indian scientific potential. IT is just that wrong people are heading those projects.
 
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Bull, rather than getting excited, accept the fact that the quality issues are what preventing the Arjun in IA. The trails were conducted over a period of no less than 15 years.

The problem with DRDO is the lack of visionary people like of Sarabhai, Homi Bhaba, Abdul kalam, who laid solid foundation for Space, atomic power and Missile Systems.

Unfortunately the people who lead(if you call that) LCA and Arjun are midgets, in front of the towering personalities mentioned above. Moreover they lack the conviction and Political backing the trioka had.

So stop blaming army and IAF for the lack of enthusiasm. No one(including me) cast aspiration on the capability on Indian scientific potential. IT is just that wrong people are heading those projects.

Where did i get excited? Where did i blame the army and IAF?
 
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As per the 14th parliamentary report of 2006 - 2007, Arjun Tank Mark - II production will be taken up after the successful completion of the first order of 124 Arjun tanks order.

The ministry of defence informed the parliamentary committee that ” I want to tell you the roadmap of MBT Arjun as an hon/ Member had asked about this issue. I want to assure you that after these 15 tanks are tried by the Army, the DRDO will be involved only for 15 more tanks. As soon as the Ordnance Factory produces these 30 tanks, the DGQA will take over the responsibility for giving technical clearance – which DRDO is doing today – and the links will be broken. Thereafter, it will be entirely the Ordnance Factory production, and the DGQA will be responsible for its certification. Hopefully, this situation will remain till DRDO does some more research and makes a Mark II of Arjun Tank. If they decide to do that, then, again, the Government will start, but that will be only after producing 124 Tanks and not before that. We will produce 124 Tanks, as the Army has accepted and told us to produce these Tanks”.

The representative of the Ministry expressed ” “Whether it is MBT Arjun, whether it is going to be Akash missile or whether is LCA, for everyone of these projects, I am prepared to take the blame organizationally for the delay due to certain inability to assess in entirety all the technological complexities involved. But I also wish to assure this Committee that at the point of introduction it has a useful life appropriate to the product of this kind and the Services have appreciated this”.

The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank. The Ministry replied ” “MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank. A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised. MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. .MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs”

The Ministry was asked to provide the latest status and import content in MBT Arjun. The Ministry supplied the information ” “Main Battle Tank Arjun is currently under production at Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi under the aegis of Ordnance Factory Board,Users have placed an indent for 124 tanks, out of which the production for the year 2005-06 is expected to be 15 Nos. The entire quantity of 124 Nos. is planned to be produced by March 2008. Power pack, Gunner’s Main Sight and Track are imported items, which work out to 58% of the cost per tank. The import content can be progressively reduced with increased production orders”.

The Ministry was again asked when the import content of the tank is 58%, how increased indigenous production can reduce import contents. The Ministry was also asked to give price comparison of Arjun Tank with T-90 Tank. The ministry replied “Indigenous Gunner’s Main Sight (IGMS) is an integrated gyrostabilized sight consisting of thermal imager, laser range finder, and day sight with inbuilt fire control computer for ballistic computation. This system enables the crew of the tank to engage targets under static and dynamic conditions by day and night with enhanced hit probability. Suitable indigenous power Packs are not available for application in MBT. Indigenous production of power pack through license production is feasible with enhanced production order for MBT Arjun considering the economy of scale. A project for development of indigenous power pack is planned in XI Five Year Plan. There are few vendors in the world who can manufacture gunner’s main sight. DRDO is developing indigenous gunner’s main sight. It is likely to mature and be available beyond 124 tanks. Indigenous track is in advanced stage of development. It will be available for Arjun production tanks beyond 124 Nos. Licensed production of the above items may be feasible with enhanced order quality for Arjun tanks and may result in reduction in import contents. T-90 is a forty-ton class tank. It cannot be compared with MBT Arjun in terms of lethality power and protection. The present cost of MBT Arjun is 16.80 crore. The production cost of T-90 is being ascertained from Ordnance Factory Board.”

On the certification of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee “…….. Arjun is certified by DGQA. The responsibility of Arjun certification is not with DGQA and still it is with DRDO themselves”.

“These 124 tanks which have been ordered for production by the Army, are produced in the Ordnance Factory. We have given clearance for the Ordnance Factory to do internal QC. This is only quality control. Then, the overall AHSP, that is, Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars continues to be with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production. Now, DGQA is participating throughout in the inspection. They are not AHSP. They will become AHSP only after DRDO gives the documents to them. Then, the become the ultimate authority for the sealed particulars. Today, sealed particulars are held by DRDO. DGQA is fully involved in inspection”.

On the production of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee ““After we took over the production from the DRDO first year we decided to deliver five tanks. These tanks were delivered last year. This year we are delivering 15 tanks more. Now 14 tanks which we had promised are ready. But while the tanks were handed over to the Army, they went for an extensive user trial. Now in the user trial some minor defects were noticed and these defects are being rectified one-by-one. Now the corrective actions which are required are expected to be completed by January this (2007) year.After this corrective action, further trials will take place. Now these are very small defects”.

On the status of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee “………….The MBT Arjun started off with a 110 mm gun but at the point of delivery it is already featuring 120 mm gun the state of-art. We started off a rifled gun for which there was no missile which could be pushed through that. But we have now identified that missile which can be fired through that. Similarly, we have built in certain electronic package as part of our processing, computing power within the tank which will allow us to network into the future.”

On the requirement of Tanks by the Army and the present position of orders received from the Army for Arjun Tank and also time schedule to deliver the same, the Ministry replied “Total requirements of Army is about 3500 tanks. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 MBT Arjun. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) Avadi, a constituent unit of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), has set up exclusively for Main Battle Tank (MBT), Arjun an assembly bay that has just started functioning. Once the activity picks up speed in this facility, HVF is confident to produce 50 Arjun tanks per year from the year 2009 onwards subject to continuous requirement by the user. T-90 tank is also being produced in the same factory under a separate production line.”
 
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Let the first 124 to be built with Quality in mind, acceptable to army, then you can dream about Mk II or Mr 2
 
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New Adventures of DRDO:

Indian defence research and development establishments are looking for joint venture partners, domestic and foreign, to co-develop and co-produce engines for the indigenously designed and built Arjun main battle tank, now entering serial production at a state-owned ordnance factory.

The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) floated a domestic and global expression of interest on October 31 for the co-development of the 1,500-horsepower Compact High Specific Power Output Diesel Engine. The CVRDE is a tank development laboratory operating under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The new engine is expected to replace the current German-built MTU engine. Currently, an order for 124 Arjun tanks has been given to the Heavy Vehicles Ordnance Factory at Avadi in Chennai, with the expectation of additional orders being placed over the next two years.:cheesy:

The newly developed engine is also expected to power the Russian T-90S tanks to be licence built in India as well as an Arjun derivative, the Tank X.:chilli:

The newly floated contract, according to DRDO officials, would look at developing an engine that will be fuel efficient, with a state-of-the-art fuel injection system, electronic controls, turbo charging, charge air cooling, safety controls and a pressurized multistage air cleaning system.:yahoo:
 
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New Adventures of DRDO:

Indian defence research and development establishments are looking for joint venture partners, domestic and foreign, to co-develop and co-produce engines for the indigenously designed and built Arjun main battle tank, now entering serial production at a state-owned ordnance factory.

The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) floated a domestic and global expression of interest on October 31 for the co-development of the 1,500-horsepower Compact High Specific Power Output Diesel Engine. The CVRDE is a tank development laboratory operating under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The new engine is expected to replace the current German-built MTU engine. Currently, an order for 124 Arjun tanks has been given to the Heavy Vehicles Ordnance Factory at Avadi in Chennai, with the expectation of additional orders being placed over the next two years.:cheesy:

The newly developed engine is also expected to power the Russian T-90S tanks to be licence built in India as well as an Arjun derivative, the Tank X.:chilli:

The newly floated contract, according to DRDO officials, would look at developing an engine that will be fuel efficient, with a state-of-the-art fuel injection system, electronic controls, turbo charging, charge air cooling, safety controls and a pressurized multistage air cleaning system.:yahoo:

Old news...
 
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