What's new

Are we counting out the Gripen?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I would stay all Russian cause you have seen often how US treats you if you do not follow their path. Indonesia openly moved away. Jut like Pakistan is saying it from the highest level. And Venezuelan don't like their f16's that much anymore.

No its no longer about Russian or American or European. Its about getting the best avaiable at the best avaiable rates.
Plus India is different from the above said nations. Cuz the US has different need for India in the future. The US is clear on its national policy. They support a country till they have need. Neither India nor US is delusional about this. Everything is based on need and economy. Therefore, it appears like India and US are in for a very long haul.

Buying expensive airframe that is not the best of the best and makes India more depending on the US policies... Besides that F18 does not fit into the Idian maintenance system... There are no cheap spare parts or alternative producers... And I doubt they will give latest weapons and radar...

I would say that is true but to a certain extent. F-18 SH airframe is proven to be a very very good one. And this plane is to be operated by USN for another 2 decades, its a sign of their faith in the machine.

I cannot comment on the weapons or radar, as i dont know the specs, however US has given S.Arabia F-16's better in capacity than their own.
India is not using F-18's are its mainstay aircraft. Its an arcraft meant to fill a certain position. Plus seeing as the US wants to cultivate India into an ally for the future against China, they would not sanction us as long as we dont test nukes.
 
.
I cannot comment on the weapons or radar, as i dont know the specs, however US has given S.Arabia F-16's better in capacity than their own.
India is not using F-18's are its mainstay aircraft. Its an arcraft meant to fill a certain position. Plus seeing as the US wants to cultivate India into an ally for the future against China, they would not sanction us as long as we dont test nukes.

I think you meant UAE and not Saudi Arabia.

Wrt to F/A-18 not being the mainstay, I think once you acquire it, it will be the top-end of the IAF (in other words its most valued asset). In terms of avionics and weapons etc., it will be more advanced and flexible than anything else in the IAF.

Sanctions is a tricky word....US can do a lot more before it slaps the sanctions on...delays, crapy service due to FMS deals, restrictions on capability usage, etc. etc. can all be used to extract concessions to whittle away capabilities.
 
.
I think you meant UAE and not Saudi Arabia.
Lol, my bad :D
typed in a hurry.

Wrt to F/A-18 not being the mainstay, I think once you acquire it, it will be the top-end of the IAF (in other words its most valued asset). In terms of avionics and weapons etc., it will be more advanced and flexible than anything else in the IAF.
No mate, it wont be top of the line in IAF, the MiG 35 would also be fitted with AESA from Israel, the EW suite jointly developed with Israel (Mayawi) which Israel plans to put on its F-35 and India the LCA. The other avionics, etc from be from Europe.
Apart from that the Su-30MKI's would also get AESA in due time.

The only significant advantage it will give is that it is an xcellent a2g plane. It would be the main a2g plane in IAF, which currently relies on the Jaguars mainly for this, though Su-30MKI's being mullti-role are also used extensively. For a2a, there would be the Superb MiG 35MKI and Su-3MKI, both much better air superiority fighters.

Oh yeah, the F/A-18E/F would also give India access to US munitions. Nothing other than that in terms of technology.

Apart from that, India is also going with Russia for the 5th gen aircraft. The F/A-18's will in no way be the top end of our airforce.

Sanctions is a tricky word....US can do a lot more before it slaps the sanctions on...delays, crapy service due to FMS deals, restrictions on capability usage, etc. etc. can all be used to extract concessions to whittle away capabilities.
They cannot put capability usage limitations on this plane mate. You forget, India is not bound to buy this plane nor are we dependent on US for our military needs. If there are any kind of limitations on the plane GoI will simply say no, you dont know the politics that goes on here. The govt will never accept anything that comes within a 1 mile radius of the word limitations in its military acquisitions. India is in for the long haul, if it gets a good experience with the F-18's, it will buy its future planes from US, if US plays tricky with India, there simply will not be any future deals, it would hurt US more thn anything else. India's defense expenditure is HUGE.
We will simply buy from Russia/Europe/Israel, such games will have no effect on India. Both Russia and Europe have separate technologies that can be bought if the US plays hokey.

India has explicitly said complete ToT. Everything is manufactured here in India itself. The companies are falling over another to manufacture the planes in India itself. We will not buy the planes without ToT apart from the offset.

There is NO WAY in hell any US personnel will EVER be allowed in India to monitor the planes. India is very politically sensitive mate, if even a whiff reaches the media about this, all hell would break lose, oppn would say govt is a sell out, has sold the country, etc, etc.
 
.
I thought the LCA was in principle light and cheap replacement for Mig21... Adding lots of high tech (like AESA) adds lots of rupees for importing goodies. 5 mil a radar and then 125 pieces? And why adding high tech to a plane without Indian engine or missiles? I would rather go for MKI2... Even the Chinese cannot stop going for MKK2 and J11... Then it must be a cool plane.
 
.
I thought the LCA was in principle light and cheap replacement for Mig21... Adding lots of high tech (like AESA) adds lots of rupees for importing goodies. 5 mil a radar and then 125 pieces? And why adding high tech to a plane without Indian engine or missiles? I would rather go for MKI2... Even the Chinese cannot stop going for MKK2 and J11... Then it must be a cool plane.

LCA is indeed that, but its meant to last in the future. It already has quadriplex FBW, etc. Now the focus is that the N-LCA FBO. AESA. Not all squadrons of LCA will be fitted with AESA ofcourse when it is inducted. A couple of planes per squadron and the rest connected with data links would be the best.

I cannot say for the MRCA, as the wishes of MoD of IAF are not known to us. What is for CERTAIN is that AESA WILL be included. In one or on all is not known. Su-30 will have an MLU, either Irbis or 2052, will be put. Depends on the factors at that time. It is indeed a cool plane, both IAF and PLAAF rely on Su-30 as their main air superiority plane.
 
.
They cannot put capability usage limitations on this plane mate. You forget, India is not bound to buy this plane nor are we dependent on US for our military needs. If there are any kind of limitations on the plane GoI will simply say no, you dont know the politics that goes on here. The govt will never accept anything that comes within a 1 mile radius of the word limitations in its military acquisitions. India is in for the long haul, if it gets a good experience with the F-18's, it will buy its future planes from US, if US plays tricky with India, there simply will not be any future deals, it would hurt US more thn anything else. India's defense expenditure is HUGE.
We will simply buy from Russia/Europe/Israel, such games will have no effect on India. Both Russia and Europe have separate technologies that can be bought if the US plays hokey.

India has explicitly said complete ToT. Everything is manufactured here in India itself. The companies are falling over another to manufacture the planes in India itself. We will not buy the planes without ToT apart from the offset.

There is NO WAY in hell any US personnel will EVER be allowed in India to monitor the planes. India is very politically sensitive mate, if even a whiff reaches the media about this, all hell would break lose, oppn would say govt is a sell out, has sold the country, etc, etc.

Malay,

Your points about ToT and limitations are actually quite out of synch with reality.

US will place restrictions as it likes....US will reserve the right to impose sanctions as it deems necessary...India can't do anything about it...Israelis have been subjected to US pressures and regardless of your overly optimistic picture of India's assertion of Independence, I see nothing extra-ordinary or different in US-India relations to suggest that India would be sanctions-proof.

US does NOT have to sell anything to the Indians...its up to the Indians to decide what they are willing to accept and what not. US military hardware will come with its set of conditions and that includes F/A-18s.

US does not care to lose a multi-billion dollar deal if it precludes the leverage desired by the US. India's defence expenditure may be huge but Indian market alone does not make or break US defence industry...even without Indian sales, the US defence industry by a wide, wide margin leads the military exporters.


India has explicitly said complete ToT. Everything is manufactured here in India itself. The companies are falling over another to manufacture the planes in India itself. We will not buy the planes without ToT apart from the offset.

Before you go off about this whole ToT business, please understand the implications. India is not capable of absorbing complete ToT that comes with weapon systems like F/A-18 and neither would all of the integrators agree to full ToT of technology that bears fruition after spending billions and billions of dollars to simply be given away in a $10 billion dollar sale.

India cannot produce the jet engines and nor will a company like GE (powering F/A-18) offer complete ToT for its engines just because a country has shown interest in purchasing aircraft that use the engines.....I mean there are a million issues with this ToT issue and simply using it is misleading.
There is NO WAY in hell any US personnel will EVER be allowed in India to monitor the planes. India is very politically sensitive mate, if even a whiff reaches the media about this, all hell would break lose, oppn would say govt is a sell out, has sold the country, etc, etc.

Nice jab at Pakistan. But just to clear it up, nobody is coming to Pakistan to monitor the aircraft. This is something that has been blown all out of proportion. As in the case of 1967 Mirage deal, the 1981 F-16 deal and then subsequent F-7 deals by the PAF, we have had French, American, and Chinese personnel placed on PAF bases to support the program. This is the extent of the current F-16 deal. No USAF personnel will be deputed to the PAF bases to babysit Pakistani F-16s. The only thing is the inventory issue which to be fair to US, would be allowed by the PAF to ascertain that none of the F-16s have travelled to China.

Aside from that, US personnel would come to Pakistan and manage the program along with PAF personnel...once the induction is complete, they will go back home. The same would apply to India if it went with a US weapon system.
 
.
I am sure the Mig-35 will be a nice aircraft, however lets see what the final capabilities of the aircraft are when its primed for IAF.

With US, just like us, you will also be subjected to vulnerabilities in terms of pressures, cut-offs etc....this is the reason I say that the majority of the order would be Mig-35. In any case, both aircraft in IAF service would give it a very potent capability.

Do you think IAF would be happy getting its hand on to F-18 hornetts in small numbers,say like 30-35?

I think it doesnt serve the purpose. One more different plane might make IAF the diverse Airfirce in the fleet operating American,British,French and Russian jets.I just dont think its going to be feasible.
 
.
Buying expensive airframe that is not the best of the best and makes India more depending on the US policies... Besides that F18 does not fit into the Idian maintenance system... There are no cheap spare parts or alternative producers... And I doubt they will give latest weapons and radar...

You are right.
US can never be trusted, its better to deal with them for one off deals like trenton on C130Js, rather than doing something which makes us dependant on them for ever.
 
.
Though most posters think that LCA failed it is certainly a good move to fill in very impressive radar (and weapons)... Not bad. Here you are with very small fighter and very powerful radar... Even if it is not Indian parts the Indians surely will get technology... Impressive to turn a terrible program into dangerous plane...
 
.
Malay,

Your points about ToT and limitations are actually quite out of synch with reality.
They maybe, they maynot be, lets discuss ;)

US will place restrictions as it likes....US will reserve the right to impose sanctions as it deems necessary...India can't do anything about it...Israelis have been subjected to US pressures and regardless of your overly optimistic picture of India's assertion of Independence, I see nothing extra-ordinary or different in US-India relations to suggest that India would be sanctions-proof.
Sanctions are useful when the components are not manufactured in the country. In India's case every company has said that it would manufacture the planes in India. Just like US has a policy that anything that the US buys has to be manufactured there itself.

US does NOT have to sell anything to the Indians...its up to the Indians to decide what they are willing to accept and what not. US military hardware will come with its set of conditions and that includes F/A-18s.
Its not India that went to the US for the planes mate. Trust me, the arms companies have every powerful lobies, they practically made the India-US honeymoon possible. They donot want to lose out the estimated 35Billion$ worth of arms to be imported by India in the near future.

US does not care to lose a multi-billion dollar deal if it precludes the leverage desired by the US. India's defence expenditure may be huge but Indian market alone does not make or break US defence industry...even without Indian sales, the US defence industry by a wide, wide margin leads the military exporters.
By all means, that is true, however the US companies want to come to India to sell the wares, we have their ambassador saying that the companies want to come to India , to sell their planes and to open RnD and their centres and stuff. US wants its companies to prosper. They are in the end private companies. Its the US that came to India with its offer mate, India did not goto US, we can buy our defense equipment from countries that we have always bought from, there is suddenly no urgency to buy from the Americans.

Before you go off about this whole ToT business, please understand the implications. India is not capable of absorbing complete ToT that comes with weapon systems like F/A-18 and neither would all of the integrators agree to full ToT of technology that bears fruition after spending billions and billions of dollars to simply be given away in a $10 billion dollar sale.
They dont give it away mate. Its license manufactued. India cant sell it or use it anywhere else. And i beg to differ, India does have the capacity to absorb weapon systems like F/A-18, its private sector is huge.

India cannot produce the jet engines and nor will a company like GE (powering F/A-18) offer complete ToT for its engines just because a country has shown interest in purchasing aircraft that use the engines.....I mean there are a million issues with this ToT issue and simply using it is misleading.
Again, license manufacturing, The engines will be manufactured here. Its not GE that deals with these issues, India deals with Boeing, and Boeing will decide what comes and goes.

Nice jab at Pakistan. But just to clear it up, nobody is coming to Pakistan to monitor the aircraft. This is something that has been blown all out of proportion. As in the case of 1967 Mirage deal, the 1981 F-16 deal and then subsequent F-7 deals by the PAF, we have had French, American, and Chinese personnel placed on PAF bases to support the program. This is the extent of the current F-16 deal. No USAF personnel will be deputed to the PAF bases to babysit Pakistani F-16s. The only thing is the inventory issue which to be fair to US, would be allowed by the PAF to ascertain that none of the F-16s have travelled to China.
Yes, but there are also restrictions on the usage of F-16's. They cannot go into heavily defended airspace, etc, etc. They can only be used in the defence of their own country(which is obviously what was planned for them ofcourse) but nevertheless, they cannot be used to go deep in India.

Aside from that, US personnel would come to Pakistan and manage the program along with PAF personnel...once the induction is complete, they will go back home. The same would apply to India if it went with a US weapon system.
Yes it would. But like i said, politics in India donot make that possible. If there are restrictions of any sort on the planes on offer to India, no govt can ever dream of getting them, it will haunt them at night. India does not depend on the US for arms, they will get it from somewhere else, as they always have. The US companies want in, not the other way round.
 
.
They maybe, they maynot be, lets discuss ;)


Sanctions are useful when the components are not manufactured in the country. In India's case every company has said that it would manufacture the planes in India. Just like US has a policy that anything that the US buys has to be manufactured there itself.

Ok so there is a nick in the engine blade, who do you think is going to send you a spare for it if you have sanctions. There are many millions of LRUs and FRUs involved here and its not possible for India to manufacture these...a majority of them require facilities and machinery which India will not posses. You need to understand the difference between assembly and manufacturing....the two are quite different and leave a gaping hole to be exploited by sanctions.

Its not India that went to the US for the planes mate. Trust me, the arms companies have every powerful lobies, they practically made the India-US honeymoon possible. They donot want to lose out the estimated 35Billion$ worth of arms to be imported by India in the near future.

Once again, military lobbies are sub-servient to US interests.....otherwise US military sales to China would be the highlight of the defence industry....not comparing China with India, simply pointing out that there are many ways of skinning the cat when it comes to sanctions.
By all means, that is true, however the US companies want to come to India to sell the wares, we have their ambassador saying that the companies want to come to India , to sell their planes and to open RnD and their centres and stuff. US wants its companies to prosper. They are in the end private companies. Its the US that came to India with its offer mate, India did not goto US, we can buy our defense equipment from countries that we have always bought from, there is suddenly no urgency to buy from the Americans.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. When you have fool-proof guarantees against sanctions on the sale of aircraft like the Hornet, then we can believe all of the diplomatic niceties like the ambassador saying this or that. While there is scope for setting up R&D for non-military stuff, the US military complex still views India's close collaboration with the Russians with some degree of caution. US companies will sell anything to anyone if they have the clearance....after all its a business that generates money, however its tempered by US foreign policy...reserving the right to apply sanctions, pressures is something that is an inherent part of the US foreign policy. Its been applied to others (Example is the tussel between UK MOD and the US companies working on the JSF who said no way we would give all of the source codes to the Brits....they worked it out however India and US are not at the same level as the UK-US relations so to assume that US will give everything to India without any preconditions is a bit naive.


They dont give it away mate. Its license manufactued. India cant sell it or use it anywhere else. And i beg to differ, India does have the capacity to absorb weapon systems like F/A-18, its private sector is huge.

You can beg to differ however the reality is otherwise. I could point out about hundred and one things as to why India would not be able to absorb the ToT and secondly the US would not want to part with many of the sensitive technologies that go into advanced aircraft manufacture...but I leave you to your own understanding.

Again, license manufacturing, The engines will be manufactured here. Its not GE that deals with these issues, India deals with Boeing, and Boeing will decide what comes and goes.

Boeing offers the aircraft...the deal on sub-systems (like engines etc) is made with the specific producers as they decide what they can offer in terms of ToT and what does not make sense for them to do. If ToT was such an easily passable thing then you would have seen more than 3 or so countries with the know-how of high performance propulsion technologies.

Yes, but there are also restrictions on the usage of F-16's. They cannot go into heavily defended airspace, etc, etc. They can only be used in the defence of their own country(which is obviously what was planned for them ofcourse) but nevertheless, they cannot be used to go deep in India.

That is all trash! The only mention about "heavily defended airspace" was for the politicians and specifically wrt a component called DRFM. PAF will have DRFM in the near future. If there is a war, PAF F-16s would be spearheading operations inside of India. There is no technical inhibition or a realistic way of stopping Pakistan from using the F-16s in any manner she deems suitable.


Yes it would. But like i said, politics in India donot make that possible. If there are restrictions of any sort on the planes on offer to India, no govt can ever dream of getting them, it will haunt them at night. India does not depend on the US for arms, they will get it from somewhere else, as they always have. The US companies want in, not the other way round.

Yep sure I buy that :disagree: The nuclear deal with its many stipulations and constraints is an example of getting around the Indian politics. I am not sure if I would be wowed by the domestic concern in the minds of the Indian governments.
 
.
Yep sure I buy that :disagree: The nuclear deal with its many stipulations and constraints is an example of getting around the Indian politics. I am not sure if I would be wowed by the domestic concern in the minds of the Indian governments.

All your above points are duly noted. I cannot comment further till i have more info. I will bring more info on F-18's TOT and whats on offer when i come back from Aero India '07.

But the last statement. There are very very wide ranging issues regarding nuke deal. Some say there is no restriction at all, some say it will stop indegenous RnD. Some say that nuke deal would increase Indian Nukes, other say it would stop their production. So one cant really be sure on that. There have beeb contradicting media reports. Condi sez in US that nuke deal would not stop Indian nuke production, and some media anslysts say that is not true, the ayatollahs of proliferation say since it wont stop india nuke production, stop nuke deal.
So its very very very complicated. AFAIK or have read the deal and its clauses highlited by the media, i can say that there is no production cap on bombs or or indegenous RnD. Infact no interference in any of the 'military' reactors.
 
.
Saab pitches Gripen for IAF mega-order
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 2007 12:01:49 AM]

MUMBAI: Swedish aerospace major Saab is gearing up to push its multi-role combat aircraft Gripen for the Indian Air Force order for 126 aircraft. The Gripen is pitted against the Rafale, Mig-35, EADS Typhoon and F-18.

Saab plans to have its largest-ever presence in India at the Aero India airshow at Bangalore. “This is our one chance to show the aircraft’s capabilities to the Indian defence brass,” says Tony Ogilvy, India director. Three Gripen JAS 39 aircraft will be on flying display, besides a simulator at the show. The Gripen is in service with the Swedish and Czech air forces and has been ordered by South Africa and Hungary.

Mr Ogilvy said that capability and cost will be key to selection of the aircraft. Security concerns, he said, override any realpolitik in selecting fighter aircraft. He said the Gripen’s competitive advantage vis-à-vis US firms is that it can carry a range of weapons, while US aircraft can only use American arms.

Saab has promised the Indian government that the fighters will be built by HAL in India under licence. The company also says it is willing to part with all the technology including the source code for the avionics and systems. This is besides the standard government of India offset clause that requires defence contractors to invest up to 30% of the value of the deal in Indian ventures.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1386834.cms
 
.
So US engined plane to already US engined LCA... The advantage will be that it is the both can share the engine cause it is alomst identical!

I doubt India going for a plane which is being dumped by Sweden. Just look how fast they are selling their own reserves. And it is depending a lot on US parts...
 
.
Yep, LCA uses GE-404 whatever till the time Kaveri is fitted in.
 
.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom