Are we counting out the Gripen?

[EagleEyes]

Webby, you have to look at the larger picture. LCA has given this country the experience, the industrial capacity , the brainpower and the technology to realise planes indegenously. It cannot be looked at alone. It was because we did not have thees things when we undertook the ambitious pogramme, that there were so many delays etc. The next plane that India develops will be much better because of this. India now has the capacity which it did not have earlier.

Same goes for Arjun,though its gonna be inducted soon.

Agreed.

 

[blain2]

Blain2,

I dont understand why India would be able to absorb it? Is it because of the LCA programme that they have worked on over the years which gives them sufficient experience or Indian aeronautical industry is better than Pakistans?

Do you think Pakistan will be able to handle transfer of technology for the aircrafts like Super J-10, and Super Hornet in the future once the aviation industry have enough experience with the JF-17 aircraft?

I dont think we should underestimate our people. I believe in those people, and the future out look for our aviation industry seems real bright as many grad students from the United States are going back to work in Pakistan for our own aviation industry and other related projects. (On the other note related to this, some fear of prejudice due to Punjabi and Mahajir related crises.)

No I am not discounting that Pakistan has a lot of engineering talent...its a matter of how mature a certain segment of your industry is...in Pakistan, the aviation, aeronautical industry is just starting off. While we can do many things, they are not sufficient to absorb all of what's needed to build a plane....here I make a distinction between assembly and building from scratch. The benefit of real absorption is that you can take that ToT and then evolve from it and build out something different, more suitable for your needs than buying a solution off the shelf (BTW both JF-17 and LCA are not an off the shelf solution).

India has had an aeronautical industry that has been primarily built around the assembly and its been around for a long time (hope you remember HF-24 Marut)...they have undertaken quite a bit of assembly and are starting to venture into own design and refinement (LCA).....they are still very far from being in the catagory of a nation like Sweden or even China (both of these countries still have not mastered the most crucial aspect of propulsion but are very self sufficient in building out sub-systems, aerodynamics and pretty much the rest of the aircraft). So you can see that each country is in a different phase.

 

[blain2]

Mate, the F-16NG is not an entirely new machine. It will incorporate the best elements already made and integrated by LM from the blk 50 to blk-60. For the blk 60 for UAE, LM had to make new things and get them integrated like AESA radars, and much else for the first time.

The F-16NG will simply assemble whatever is best in the F-16 along with some spin off technologies from the F-22 and F-35. All the things have already been done for UAE. I HIGHLY doubt if the integration or rnd for this would exceed 1Bill USD at the very very highest end.

LM knows that if it turns out to be very expensive India will not consider it. Thus if they are putting this up, that emans the planeLM has already said that they will make everything here, it would be full ToT. Apart from that they will invest in India.

F-16NG will not take time to develop as like i said, its only assembly that is required. F-35 is going to be inducted not before 2015. There is a long time till then.

And its not because of the things mentioned by you that IAF will not go for F-16. Its cuz Pakistan has F-16's, so India will never buy them, no matter that LM has said the plane they sell to India will be completely different from the one that Pakistan has.

And yes, the F/A-18E/F will be too expensive for India in 126 numbers. That is why i think that the order will be split b/w MiG 35 and F-18. This will not only double the rate at which the planes are acquired but also keep both Russia and US happy. Aside from giving two very very capable planes to the IAF. The MiG 35 required no change in infrastructure. The only new plane in terms of types that would be gotten, would be the F-18.
---------------------------------

Malay,

You are stirring in the nest of F-16 hornets (fans) here ....believe me on this....F-16 NG is nothing but an offering along the lines of what was proposed to UAE for F-16 E/Fs. You have to fund it, pay for weapons integration etc. etc. LM will not raise a hand to put anything infront of the IAF until and unless they have funds made available to them by IAF. Such is the story behind the F-16 program now. Pakistan was asked to fund the research that would have gone into the integration of AESA on the blk 52. It was deemed not possible by PAF due to technical and financial reasons based on what I know. Any aircraft that is not to be inducted by USAF, USN would require the interested party to fund its development...the biggest strike against the F-16 is that IAF get nothing that is leaps ahead of the F-16 blk 52 that PAF will have (even if they get blk 60).

I agree on the Hornet/Mig-35 split. The numbers will come from the Russian hardware and technology from the US for the IAF in terms of the MRCA buy at least.

 

[Contrarian]

Malay,

You are stirring in the nest of F-16 hornets (fans) here ....believe me on this....F-16 NG is nothing but an offering along the lines of what was proposed to UAE for F-16 E/Fs. You have to fund it, pay for weapons integration etc. etc. LM will not raise a hand to put anything infront of the IAF until and unless they have funds made available to them by IAF. Such is the story behind the F-16 program now. Pakistan was asked to fund the research that would have gone into the integration of AESA on the blk 52. It was deemed not possible by PAF due to technical and financial reasons based on what I know. Any aircraft that is not to be inducted by USAF, USN would require the interested party to fund its development...

Lol ok i agree, though i still have suspicion that as LM has already integrated for the blk 60, 80% of the job is already done! as most of the componenets will be similar to the blk 60.

the biggest strike against the F-16 is that IAF get nothing that is leaps ahead of the F-16 blk 52 that PAF will have (even if they get blk 60).

AESA, 40% more range etc,etc. LM has assured GoI that it will be significantly different and improved from the PAF F-16's if India choses F-16's.

I agree on the Hornet/Mig-35 split. The numbers will come from the Russian hardware and technology from the US for the IAF in terms of the MRCA buy at least.

Its not a question of numbers and technology blain. Its a question of politics.
There is a need to give US some orders cuz of the nuke deal.

MiG 35 will have AESA (Elta 2052), it will have Python 5, 3D TVC!! etc, a lot.
This is not the classic MiG 29. MiG 35 is totally different like the difference b/w F-18 Hornet and F-18E/F SHornet. Same name, diff planes.

And you know the avionics we put in the MiG 35 will be wayy different from the Russian one's. India would combine the best avionics available in Europe and Israel and put it in.

Plus MiG 35 has a very very low RCS, its not like the big Su-30MKI.

And the Elta AESA wil be superior to teh AESA offered with the SH.
MiG 35 when MKI'zed will be a beast!!

The thing is what F/A-18 gives us is stealth(its RCS is the same as that of Rafale, possibly lower) and opens the doors for US munitions, apart from that it can be put on our Aircraft Carrier. So it gives added mobility. Not that this plane will be for the IN, but it gives a boost to its abilities. That is all. Plus its an excellent a2g plane. So a mixture of MiG 35MKI with F/A-18E/F would be a very very deadly mixture.

I think both are required in their own roles. F-18 gives no added technology that is not avaiable or what would not be put in the MiG 35.

 

[blain2]

I am sure the Mig-35 will be a nice aircraft, however lets see what the final capabilities of the aircraft are when its primed for IAF.

With US, just like us, you will also be subjected to vulnerabilities in terms of pressures, cut-offs etc....this is the reason I say that the majority of the order would be Mig-35. In any case, both aircraft in IAF service would give it a very potent capability.

 

[Contrarian]

I am sure the Mig-35 will be a nice aircraft, however lets see what the final capabilities of the aircraft are when its primed for IAF.

The final capabilities decided when the a/c is bought does not decide what its going to become. We bought the Su-30K in the begnining, but slowly the next batches became MK, and then MKI. Now all have been converted to MKI and 18 K's were sold to Belgium or some country. I am forgetting the name.

With US, just like us, you will also be subjected to vulnerabilities in terms of pressures, cut-offs etc....this is the reason I say that the majority of the order would be Mig-35. In any case, both aircraft in IAF service would give it a very potent capability.

True, MiG 35 would be the bulk and the F-18 in smaller numbers, for fear of sanctions as well as economics. But both together would indeed be a very good combination

 

[Munir]

Belarus... Not Belgium...

If I was India I would go for Su32... No to FA18E/F...

 

[melb4aust]

apart from that it can be put on our Aircraft Carrier. So it gives added mobility. Not that this plane will be for the IN, but it gives a boost to its abilities.

I am highly doubtful that F-18 can be able to put on Indian aircraft carrier, (verat) british origin probably, straight away.

 

[Neo]

I am highly doubtful that F-18 can be able to put on Indian aircraft carrier, (verat) british origin probably, straight away.

F-18E/F uses catapult launch and therefor will not operate from AC their due sky-jump deck.

 

[Keysersoze]

F-18E/F uses catapult launch and therefor will not operate from AC their due sky-jump deck.

I have forgotten which aircraft IN is looking to procure for their carrier and whether it is a STOL aircraft.....

I thought it was a navalised version of the TEJAS

 

[Contrarian]

I have forgotten which aircraft IN is looking to procure for their carrier and whether it is a STOL aircraft.....

I thought it was a navalised version of the TEJAS

IN has already acquired MiG 29K's for its Gorshkov. Its greater than a quantum leap for the IN pilots who were till now flying Sea Harriers.

For the third IN aircraft carrier(or the second, depending on whether Virat is retired by then), that is the IAC, N-LCA is planned. Hopefully by the time the IAC comes out, N-LCA will be ready. So that would mean an Indian Aircraft Carrier with an Indian plane on it


I think F/A-18's may not be capable of landing on an aircraft carrier without catapults, but they are still one heck of an a2g war machines along with excellent a2a. I'd say go with them. They would be able to replace the ageing Jaguars and give a much greater lethality to the IAF.

 

[Contrarian]

Belarus... Not Belgium...

If I was India I would go for Su32... No to FA18E/F...

why would you go for Su32??

 

[Munir]

why would you go for Su32??

I would stay all Russian cause you have seen often how US treats you if you do not follow their path. Indonesia openly moved away. Jut like Pakistan is saying it from the highest level. And Venezuelan don't like their f16's that much anymore.

Buying expensive airframe that is not the best of the best and makes India more depending on the US policies... Besides that F18 does not fit into the Idian maintenance system... There are no cheap spare parts or alternative producers... And I doubt they will give latest weapons and radar...

 

[vnomad]

For the third IN aircraft carrier(or the second, depending on whether Virat is retired by then), that is the IAC, N-LCA is planned. Hopefully by the time the IAC comes out, N-LCA will be ready. So that would mean an Indian Aircraft Carrier with an Indian plane on it

For the third AC the F-35B(USMC and RN) is a very open option. We'll have to see what the entry from the Russian stables is. NLCA or MiG-29K is definitely out. Even the first ADS may be equipped with the F-35 if its production is delayed(F-35B is expected to enter service 2015 onwards).

 

[Munir]

Any idea what the status is og PAK-FA? China did not join. Why? What exactly will India add?