Are they serious? Is Pakistan really blaming India for Peshawar massacre

[AnnoyingOrange]

Maybe if you started seeing more than just India TV, you might be more alive to the fact that it was hardly an issue of global importance and you are severely overestimating its impact. Secondly, even the Harpy shot down back in early 2000s was not an Indian made bird.
I could see why India would choose a commercially available. inexpensive drone as a dispensable means of carrying out recon. Its cheap and comes with total deniability.

I like the way there is always a justification to every stupid claim made by Pakistani Civil-Military Establishment... and how gullible Pakistanis hog on the kind of "Sazishi Mafruse" floated by rabid Pakistani anchors... hell some even see a conspiracy in watching latest Bollywood movie..

 

[randaam janmam]

Don't want to start a debate.
Keep believing what you believe......

There is nothing to debate. Any monkey with firearms can attack a school full of unarmed kids, without any need for "foreign support". The finest orator cannot debate that.

Nothing beats the pigeon though !

It's not like we officially summoned the Pak ambassador to discuss the pigeon - it was just a local story, involving a district police. But your ISPR officially released pictures of the cheap Chinese drone, and then lodged an official protest to India. Meanwhile, some traffic policemen in Pakistan were wondering why their drone didn't return. You can't beat that.

 

[HariPrasad]

Actually blaming India can help pakistanis to keep its country united. One thing is common in pakistan which is hatred for India. They simply play India card to keep their folk united. If the say that the attackers were of particular area or tribe than the conflict shall break out in between. It is always better to blame India for domestic reason. Even they blame India for flood in Pakistan and death in Karachi from heat. By blaming India, real culprit and those responsible for the security of the affairs can wash away their hands. Pakistan's India card is very old yet very effective. If some time India card is not that much effective than there is a provision of MOSAD, CIA also. Afghan Intelligence agency is a recent addition to the list.

 

[randaam janmam]

g meri jaan

re India my position was clear since the day of the 16 Dec attack. even if the Indian involvement is confirmed at all levels. I wont wish anything similar or close to happen to Indian children. the way they prayed and paid respect for the victims shall never be forgotten and we pray for their safety

Even the Indians who hate Pakistan to the core of their hearts, will not want to see what happened in APS. Not even our worst enemies should have to bear that. From parliament to schools, we were horrified.

I don't think anybody on this forum is saying that India was behind the massacre of APS,...

Actually quite a few people have said it on this forum, and on this very thread.

... and i am not even talking about the massacre of people migrating to Pakistan during Partition and how their bodies were mutilated without any distinction of age or gender.

You know that worked both ways, right? That people migrating from Pakistan were also massacred?

 

[third eye]

Indeed and it is the PA and ISI serving as the nucleus of an otherwise fractured nation that has been able to slow and then stop the plunge of this nation towards absolute chaos. However, it has also created an atmosphere where the Pakistani public is becoming increasingly skeptical of the outside world and that is not helping the cause at all. It is increasingly difficult to justify any sort of help or interaction with foreign states without facing the ire of the people who now think of much of the world's most notable nations as facilitators of chaos for their role in Pakistan and the broader region.

Ironically , its the ISI & PA which has put Pakistan in the spot it finds itself in.

Zia's decade plus did the most damage to Pakistan. The ISI / PA short sightedly carried on the ' good work'.

Most Pak posters here feel otherwise but I think the line taken by NS is the right one - to move on with / without resolution of old issues. But the timings of flare ups that are created before/ during / after meetings does not go unnoticed. Neither does the fact that counter statements come almost immediately after your PM makes one relating to India.

Obviously and that has been the very case. I am going to be very candid, in the 1990s and early 2000s you could donate to the Kashmir Jihad at every mosque. Eid prayers would be followed by massive donations to 'Mujahideen' but that has become like some sort of ancient history owing to the rapid transformation Pakistan has undergone which has seen the abandonment of such elements by establishment and a public rejection of financially sustaining militancy, where ever it may be.

I have no reason to disbelieve this coming from you. However when we see Hafiz Saeed and Pak's inability to reign in Lakhvi etc it seems to jarr against what you have written.

The funds now come from Govt sources.. maybe .

 

[PLANZubr]

India is caught red-handed with a smoking gun. No limit to how low the Indians will go.

 

[Icarus]

I like the way there is always a justification to every stupid claim made by Pakistani Civil-Military Establishment... and how gullible Pakistanis hog on the kind of "Sazishi Mafruse" floated by rabid Pakistani anchors... hell some even see a conspiracy in watching latest Bollywood movie..

There is no conspiracy theory, its a sound military tactic.

The difference being that in India's case, our neighbors actually have supported militants Even if you deny that, you cannot pretend that many Pakistanis have infiltrated into India for militancy. You cannot deny that there are training camps for militants in Pakistan. Ajmal Kasab was not Amar Singh in disguise, Syed Salahudin and Omar Sheikh are in Pakistan, etc etc.

There is a wide world of difference in credibility when Pak is accused of fomenting terror, and India being accused of it - that too, ironically, by Pak - the very country who's citizens have exploded in so many places across the world.

The same has been the case with India so please do not exonerate yourself from your crimes just yet. Your support to Mukti Bahini and the LTTE are well documented. The only difference remains that one man's terrorist just happens to be another's freedom fighter.

Ironically , its the ISI & PA which has put Pakistan in the spot it finds itself in.

Zia's decade plus did the most damage to Pakistan. The ISI / PA short sightedly carried on the ' good work'.

It seemed like a good idea then but there is no contention in the fact that Pakistan has not suffered such damage at India's hands as it has from these proxies. the ISI/PA could not have accounted for the Pressler Amendment and the rapid US withdrawal which left Pakistan trapped with 6 million Afghans and a very limited space to maneuver in. The 90s policy framework is a fair indicator of the civil-military establishment's myopic vision for the time.

Most Pak posters here feel otherwise but I think the line taken by NS is the right one - to move on with / without resolution of old issues. But the timings of flare ups that are created before/ during / after meetings does not go unnoticed. Neither does the fact that counter statements come almost immediately after your PM makes one relating to India.

People are upset that he engaged with India from a position of weakness, Kashmir and water issues were not given any space on the agenda and it was soon followed by aggression at the borders. Personally I can live with NS conceding a point or two to make a breakthrough that might finally bring some peace to this region but the ensuing violence, has left a bitter taste in my mouth and that of anyone else in the security structure who thought that we can actually rely on India to cease hostilities on the Eastern front to commit more troops to the west.

I have no reason to disbelieve this coming from you. However when we see Hafiz Saeed and Pak's inability to reign in Lakhvi etc it seems to jarr against what you have written.

Hafiz Saeed and Lakhvi have been tried and exonerated by the courts, I cannot comment on the moral or ethical standing of these decisions but considering that they have yet to hang a single terrorist we have produced in court, it was no surprise that Lakhvi was going to walk free.

The funds now come from Govt sources.. maybe .

JuD has a massive support base as a social welfare organization. They can generate significant funds on their own and get some through their salafi connections.

 

[randaam janmam]

The same has been the case with India so please do not exonerate yourself from your crimes just yet. Your support to Mukti Bahini and the LTTE are well documented. The only difference remains that one man's terrorist just happens to be another's freedom fighter.

How many countries consider Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization? Can you name a single one, barring Pakistan? So it's a case of one country's terrorist being 150 other countries' freedom fighters. Food for thought.

On the other hand, how many of Pakistan's "freedom fighters" top the banned lists of any major country or the UN?

Don't try to pretend equivalence, with that tired and inapplicable cliche of "one man's..."

While India sponsored the LTTE, they were a legitimate force against a genocidal regime. The anti-Tamil riots in the 80s made it morally right to support Tamil resistance. Later when they ceased to be a resistance and became terrorists, India fought them with our blood and treasure. We captured Jaffna, Vahni and one third of the island from the LTTE, which the Sri Lankan forces could not.

 

[Icarus]

How many countries consider Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization? Can you name a single one, barring Pakistan? So it's a case of one country's terrorist being 150 other countries' freedom fighters. Food for thought.

On the other hand, how many of Pakistan's "freedom fighters" top the banned lists of any major country or the UN?

Don't try to pretend equivalence, with that tired and inapplicable cliche of "one man's..."

While India sponsored the LTTE, they were a legitimate force against a genocidal regime. The anti-Tamil riots in the 80s made it morally right to support Tamil resistance. Later when they ceased to be a resistance and became terrorists, India fought them with our blood and treasure. We captured Jaffna, Vahni and one third of the island from the LTTE, which the Sri Lankan forces could not.

Circumstantial excuses to legitimize your own country's follies while attacking mine for the same. That is a very fine example of having one yard stick for yourself and a completely different one for your neighbours. I could argue by the same extension that Pakistan's support to Kashmiri and Sikh Militants was based on helping a "Legitimate force against a genocidal regime". The Afghan Taliban can be justified as having been supported for stabilizing Afghanistan.
Its one thing to act holier than thou but when you try to justify it through sheer hypocrisy, I'm afraid it no longer stands.

 

[third eye]

People are upset that he engaged with India from a position of weakness, Kashmir and water issues were not given any space on the agenda and it was soon followed by aggression at the borders. Personally I can live with NS conceding a point or two to make a breakthrough that might finally bring some peace to this region but the ensuing violence, has left a bitter taste in my mouth and that of anyone else in the security structure who thought that we can actually rely on India to cease hostilities on the Eastern front to commit more troops to the west.

Weakness ?

Aggression on the borders began even while NS was there. Its a given in an Indo- Pak context. We have more than sufficient reason to believe the ISI/ PA does not want things to settle down or move forward hence such moves.

How would the people of Pakistan describe themselves not being is a position of weakness , on equal terms and with a upper hand , and how do they feel it can be achieved ?

When has Pakistan ever ceased sending people across that it expects India to cease hostilities ? Now, with a popular Govt in New Delhi which has a majority in the lower house the dynamics have changed, No more is it a MMS.

Indians realise that they can do better and resent the millstone of Pakistan around their neck. We do not covet an inch of what you have & can live with a Pakistan that does not like us but cannot take a Pakistan that does a Mumbai, gloats over it and expects friendship .

 

[Icarus]

Aggression on the borders began even while NS was there. Its a given in an Indo- Pak context. We have more than sufficient reason to believe the ISI/ PA does not want things to settle down or move forward hence such moves.

I could reiterate the same for the Indian forces, the day those five civilians were killed, India was firing intermittently from seven company sized posts onto two Pakistani coys and yet ALL the mortars landed three kilometres inland, in civilian territory. Once again, its the mutual distrust that is to blame. Firing on the border is no big deal, you and I know it can be triggered by something as trivial as a no ball being passed off as legitimate in a Pak-India match but when civilians are deliberately targeted then it is a completely different story.

How would the people of Pakistan describe themselves not being is a position of weakness , on equal terms and with a upper hand , and how do they feel it can be achieved ?

The people of Pakistan want to solve the matter between the two states in a manner where the nations embark on their journey into the future as equals who are at peace with themselves.

When has Pakistan ever ceased sending people across that it expects India to cease hostilities ? Now, with a popular Govt in New Delhi which has a majority in the lower house the dynamics have changed, No more is it a MMS.

Well since the agreement in 2003, neither party has been sending people over the border. The popular government is doing more harm than good to regional stability as has been highlighted by a number of policy institutes and the exact dividends of this 'talk less, hit more' policy will become apparent when its right about election time and the situation will be worse off than before.

Indians realise that they can do better and resent the millstone of Pakistan around their neck. We do not covet an inch of what you have & can live with a Pakistan that does not like us but cannot take a Pakistan that does a Mumbai, gloats over it and expects friendship .

Lets be very clear here, this animosity is very mutual, Indians would like to think that they are the better people here but the fact of the matter remains that Indian medical camps on the Afghan border have been treating all the wrong people and I doubt its by mistake. Both nations have maintained a terrible policy with regards to the other and as long as we don't take giant strides to bridge this gap, I fear the region will never quite reach its true potential and people like me and you will have to live with justifying violence and hatred.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

There is no conspiracy theory, its a sound military tactic.

.

and one that is working fine for them too while the social media creates a cloud of doubt.
just like the Indian webforce day and night taunts us for our dependence on USA despite the fact that their own country is the biggest recipient.
this is the divergence tactic that do something yourself and bitch and moan about others so much and so consistently that people never see any evil in you

 

[coffee_cup]

There is nothing wrong in Accusing India for every attack in Pakistan.......... It can serve the following purpose....

1) The actual culprits can keep planning attacks in Pakistan without fear of getting caught
2) The in-capabilities of security agencies can be masked by blaming India

Not every attack, but Indian support for cross-border terrorism in the neighborhood is more than half a century old.

Most, if not all, large scale terrorist attacks in Sri Lanka and Pakistan were carried by Indian proxies.

I hope saner people in India somehow manage to convince the extremist hindus sitting in the echelons of power that this strategy is bound to fail. Peace in the region will benefit every one.

For that to happen, Indian support for cross-border terrorism must end!

 

[third eye]

The people of Pakistan want to solve the matter between the two states in a manner where the nations embark on their journey into the future as equals who are at peace with themselves.

Thats just the point, what is it that will solve the problem ? Having ceded disputed areas to China Pak has made things worse. There is no way the clock will turn back now.

Lets be very clear here, this animosity is very mutual, Indians would like to think that they are the better people here but the fact of the matter remains that Indian medical camps on the Afghan border have been treating all the wrong people and I doubt its by mistake. Both nations have maintained a terrible policy with regards to the other and as long as we don't take giant strides to bridge this gap, I fear the region will never quite reach its true potential and people like me and you will have to live with justifying violence and hatred.

Of course the animosity is mutual .

The only step that can solve things is conversion of the LC into an IB. This too would be huge comedown for India as it would be for Pak. The IWT has held and has been fair hence Pak need not fear on that account.

Other than this , it shall remain business as usual.

The popular government is doing more harm than good to regional stability as has been highlighted by a number of policy institutes and the exact dividends of this 'talk less, hit more' policy will become apparent when its right about election time and the situation will be worse off than before.

The popular Govt is reflecting the exasperation the nation has begun to feel post Mumbai.

Things could hardly be called stable even before this Govt came in.

 

[nForce]

How many countries consider Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization? Can you name a single one, barring Pakistan? So it's a case of one country's terrorist being 150 other countries' freedom fighters. Food for thought.

Not even Pakistani govt. considers Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization.