Are air defence systems like S400 Patriot etc worthless against a modern military?

[hussain0216]

Are air defence systems like S400 Patriot etc worthless against a modern military

It's a simple question

Any views?


Personally it seems to me that the usefulness of these systems seems to be overestimated
Possibly against a technologically limited enemy they could be of some use Israel v Palestinians comes to mind
However against modern well equipped militaries they just seem to be inadequate and countries are simply utilising new tricks to take them out


Are modern air defence systems just a placebo to make countries feel safer and little else?


Follow up question, considering Pakistan and India are both modern militaries is it worth Pakistan in wasting money on buying these things and is India's coming s400 just waiting to be taken out by us?

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Are air defence systems like S400 Patriot etc worthless against a modern military

It's a simple question

Any views?


Personally it seems to me that the usefulness of these systems seems to be overestimated
Possibly against a technologically limited enemy they could be of some use Israel v Palestinians comes to mind
However against modern well equipped militaries they just seem to be inadequate and countries are simply utilising new tricks to take them out


Are modern air defence systems just a placebo to make countries feel safer and little else?


Follow up question, considering Pakistan and India are both modern militaries is it worth Pakistan in wasting money on buying these things and is India's coming s400 just waiting to be taken out by us?

The AD systems of countries like Libya, Iraq, Syria etc are not suitable barometer. They have either old only some odd standalone units. Whereas countries like Pakistan and India will have multilayered systems.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Are air defence systems like S400 Patriot etc worthless against a modern military

It's a simple question

Any views?


Personally it seems to me that the usefulness of these systems seems to be overestimated
Possibly against a technologically limited enemy they could be of some use Israel v Palestinians comes to mind
However against modern well equipped militaries they just seem to be inadequate and countries are simply utilising new tricks to take them out


Are modern air defence systems just a placebo to make countries feel safer and little else?


Follow up question, considering Pakistan and India are both modern militaries is it worth Pakistan in wasting money on buying these things and is India's coming s400 just waiting to be taken out by us?

There is always a sword and a shield in battle.
We imploy means to defeat the weapon and do maximum damage to other side.

Like any other weapon s400 can be defeated with an effective strategy. There are limitless possibilities when you think oitside the box and pakistaniz are masters at that we dont even know a box exists lol.

Just study nato and israeli tactics to defeat russian and chinese s400 and HQ-9B . That is one effective way to swarm and overwhelm the system with cost effective multiple drone decoy targets when system is over loaded strike with a cruise missile.
Or a MIRV.

In India's case ground based disabling attacks or interuptions confusions for the launchers is also possible.

If the batteries are near to the border the easier it is to take them out.

They will ofcourse have a secondary and tertiary protective sam network as well.

Any and all weapon systems can he defeated with situational awareness , planning and better tactics. No weapon is invincible or truely divine reaper. There are always rules and limitation which one party can exploit.

Its just a matter of how badly you want it. You sacrifice something and deal a huge blow to enemy thats how wars work

 

[Old School]

War can never be won with hardwares alone. A war requires well defined strategic, tactical and operational plans. Those of PDF hardwarephiles must be disappointed.

 

[500]

Pretty much useless against strong air force. The main problem of SAMs is they are limited by LOS, i.e. even long range SAM can hit low flying target only at 30 km. So modern jets equipped with stand off missiles can attack them safely.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Defeating S400 is piece of cake in today's technology.
You can make it redundant by lots of means. for example;

1- By sabotage.
This is the best old style method to make any system ineffective by destroying it through sabotage. Remember what happened to our Orion. So the planning of how to sabotage should be on the list. Keeping the intel on enemies sites location is the start.
2- Swarm of Drones.
We should be looking to develop smart bomblets carrying and launching small drones like British coming project "Tempest". Pakistan should be seriously considering such technologies in their coming project "Azm".
3- More conventional matters of "Jamming" and "confusing" etc.
There should be at least one or if possible more than one method should be develop in this regard. We should have different aces up our sleeves.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Defeating S400 is piece of cake in today's technology.
You can make it redundant by lots of means. for example;

1- By sabotage.
This is the best old style method to make any system ineffective by destroying it through sabotage. Remember what happened to our Orion. So the planning of how to sabotage should be on the list. Keeping the intel on enemies sites location is the start.
2- Swarm of Drones.
We should be looking to develop smart bomblets carrying and launching small drones like British coming project "Tempest". Pakistan should be seriously considering such technologies in their coming project "Azm".
3- More conventional matters of "Jamming" and "confusing" etc.
There should be at least one or if possible more than one method should be develop in this regard. We should have different aces up our sleeves.

dude just because Pakistan does not have S-400 does not mean it sucks! S-400 is a game changer! Look at Turkey, they gave up F-35 program over S-400! thats how important it is for a modern military!
India has one of the most advance AD system in the world! Short range- medium range -long range they have got it all!
You have to pull a miracle to go through so many layers of defence system before you can get to S-400 which could be 50 -100 km deep inside.

 

[crankthatskunk]

dude just because Pakistan does not have S-400 does not mean it sucks! S-400 is a game changer! Look at Turkey, they gave up F-35 program over S-400! thats how important it is for a modern military!
India has one of the most advance AD system in the world! Short range- medium range -long range they have got it all!
You have to pull a miracle to go through so many layers of defence system before you can get to S-400 which could be 50 -100 km deep inside.

Dude, S 400 didn't arrive as yet. So we leave that on one side for now.
All other system you mentioned were easily surpassed, suppressed on 27th Feb 19.
When times comes S 400 would be suppressed too, i have absolutely no problem with that.

 

[Tumba]

Indian Air Defense has an integrated command this means multiple radar systems provide full picture of aerial situation at once from all over India.
This means S-400 will boost this network and will work in conjunction with multiple Indian and Foreign advance systems.
S-400 radars will be well inside Indian territory and still covering most of Pakistani airspace the launchers are another story they will be dispersed as per the strategy they might be deployed 20 kms or 200 kms from border same is true for

PAD
AAD
Aakash
Barak
Spyder
NASAAM

All above systems provide robust defense against non stealthy targets and can handle sub-sonic cruise missile and UCAVs.

Also all of these are passive air defense... active air defense is always BVR trucks like MKI and Mig29.
Rafales will also come in numbers to add to it.

 

[Wood]

The AD systems of countries like Libya, Iraq, Syria etc are not suitable barometer. They have either old only some odd standalone units. Whereas countries like Pakistan and India will have multilayered systems.

Does Pakistan have BMD? I thought that Pakistan had a doctrinal bias against BMDs as they can never guarantee absolute protection. Perhaps directed energy defensive weapons of the future could change that.

Indian Air Defense has an integrated command this means multiple radar systems provide full picture of aerial situation at once from all over India.
This means S-400 will boost this network and will work in conjunction with multiple Indian and Foreign advance systems.
S-400 radars will be well inside Indian territory and still covering most of Pakistani airspace the launchers are another story they will be dispersed as per the strategy they might be deployed 20 kms or 200 kms from border same is true for

PAD
AAD
Aakash
Barak
Spyder
NASAAM

All above systems provide robust defense against non stealthy targets and can handle sub-sonic cruise missile and UCAVs.

Also all of these are passive air defense... active air defense is always BVR trucks like MKI and Mig29.
Rafales will also come in numbers to add to it.

The true integration of these disparate systems will be a real challenge (if such a thing is possible in the first place). Especially getting the American and Russian systems to play along. Wonder if India did some feasibility studies around this before the purchase decisions were made. Perhaps the systems will be setup in non overlapping layers such that integration needs are minimal.

 

[Tumba]

Does Pakistan have BMD? I thought that Pakistan had a doctrinal bias against BMDs as they can never guarantee absolute protection. Perhaps directed energy defensive weapons of the future could change that.

100% protection can not be guaranteed by any SAM system also.
BMD are absolutely necessary as Ballistic missiles can rain devastation if armed with nukes.
Technically if you have good ballistic missiles and sensors BMD can be developed.

Suppose Pakistan launches 200 nuke missiles of India even if 50 of them are taken out by
Indian BMD... AAD or PAD that saved millions of lives in long run.

 

[sohail.ishaque]

There were some rumors that S300 was also defeated by Turkey in Syria while taking down 2 Su24 jets. Can anyone confirm it ?

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Does Pakistan have BMD? I thought that Pakistan had a doctrinal bias against BMDs as they can never guarantee absolute protection. Perhaps directed energy defensive weapons of the future could change that.

We don't even have a decent SAM structure. Only in recent years we have started thinking about it. We have Spada 2000 as SHORAD and a member here claimed that we are buying Pantsir. In medium range we have LY-80. And nothing in long range.

 

[Tumba]

The true integration of these disparate systems will be a real challenge (if such a thing is possible in the first place). Especially getting the American and Russian systems to play along. Wonder if India did some feasibility studies around this before the purchase decisions were made. Perhaps the systems will be setup in non overlapping layers such that integration needs are minimal.

I am talking about radar feeds only... S-400 radar wont be able to guide a Spyder missile.
Situation awareness is one of the key area to develop counter strategy for which India has progressed a lot bith Indian and Foreign radars are networked and integrated now in
Indian Air defense.
But launchers will remain specific to its base radars.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

100% protection can not be guaranteed by any SAM system also.
BMD are absolutely necessary as Ballistic missiles can rain devastation if armed with nukes.
Technically if you have good ballistic missiles and sensors BMD can be developed.

Suppose Pakistan launches 200 nuke missiles of India even if 50 of them are taken out by
Indian BMD... AAD or PAD that saved millions of lives in long run.

do you even know what even 10 nuclear missiles are capable of destroying? pretty much entire south asia could be in stone age due to nuclear fallout!

 

[Tumba]

do you even know what even 10 nuclear missiles are capable of destroying? pretty much entire south asia could be in stone age due to nuclear fallout!

10 nukes wont be able to take out Delhi fully. Even if they are 100-150 kt.