Architecture of Zia's Islamization

[Sugarcane]

stay the same maybe? just improve law and order.
everything you stated above is complete bs btw

Jinny of radicalization is out of bottle and radical steps are needed to put it back.
If someone would have predicted current situation of Pakistan in 80s than people would also have called it bs. Sooner we wake up better it will be.

 

[Vinod2070]

Pakistan needs another Zia.

Yes, first one could not finish the job.

 

[jamal18]

I liked Zia,he changed the leadership from what the British describe as a bunch of 'kiss my arse black men' to people who had at least a little solidarity with the culture and values of their own people.

Nobody seems to recognize the economic improvement in his days; I believe Pakistan had one of the highest growth rates in the world at the time.

Also he sanctioned the Afghan war, many in Pakistan had no desire to oppose the Russians in Afghanistan.

 

[qamar1990]

Jinny of radicalization is out of bottle and radical steps are needed to put it back.
If someone would have predicted current situation of Pakistan in 80s than people would also have called it bs. Sooner we wake up better it will be.

we don't need a ataturk to **** up our culture.
all we need is educated well rounded prime minister.

the biggest threat to us is fundamentalism and thats what we need to target, all sorts of fundamentalists not just the talibans but the fascists and secularists as well.
we don't need to have separate state and mosque type of deal.
what we should do is that take the verse that says there is no compulsion in religion and use that to judge everything else.
so anything like killing apostates creates compulsion ect so that would be against the law.

what I'm saying is that ataturk sold out his country and we don't need to we can fix ours in another way perhaps.
we should keep our own culture, i know i want to keep mines after all our punjabi hospitality is the best in the world.

we can start this step by helping educate our youth asap, automatically 99 percent of these fundamentalists will be gone in one generation. for now we have to fight them to keep them at bay.

 

[Sugarcane]

What current Pakistan is doing to undo the effect of Zia's wrong policies and misdeed? Is any conscious effort going on in Pakistan?

Blaming everything on Zia is hypocrisy in my opinion - Foundation of Islamisation was laid in 1973 when we on pressure of Mullah brigade, state legalized that people have right to decide the faith of people. No doubt in Zia's era it took pace but still he had control over it, actual problem started after his death as subsequent governments was corrupt and incompetent to handle this. Infect they gave free hands to extremists. Nobody question that what the governments of last 3 decades did, why nobody tried to reverse/abandon Zia's policies?

 

[Sugarcane]

1) Why not, it's always very hard to understand Quran while reading.. Unless you don't read is different thing

a) Is claim of God in Quran that we made it easy & complete is false? no IFs & BUTs - simple answer Yes or No
b) Why Arab speaking countries also have problems if knowing Arabic was all it needed?

2) Sure, if you believe Mullah's give one.. But for us, it's "Aqeedah" which implies you are muslim or something else

If highlighted part was true than there wouldn't have been any problem about who is Muslim or Not - be sincere about it.

3) Sure, its better then putting naked women on the posters, at the beach, or in text books.

Everybody who don't wear ninja turtle dress don't walk naked in streets.

4) Why not, beard is sunnah and Our prophet had one. Whats wrong with beard?

Show me any verse of Quran making it Mandatory and to be enforced?

5) yeah, sure religious education is necessary and can live without writing some dumb thesis, around 99.9% people in the world are not scientists anyways (Ps I belong to .01% people ).

Knowledge of 5 pillars of Islam and ethics and rights of people and society and following them is enough to become good Muslim, instead of reading literature to find excuses for implementing personal wishes over others and giving barbaric punishments to ones who don't agree.

6) no, without schools how point number 5 will be possible?

Madrassa's are there for religious education.

Idea here is just, to show you there are two extremes, following Islam doesn't always implies TTP extreme. And Zia didn't gave birth to them.

Lastly Islam is complete social system, which include social laws as well as personal laws And no, lash people for not having beard or not covering up or blowing up the school are not belong of these laws.

Quran is book of guidance not laws or science - Muslims needs to fix their mindset, only few laws are mentioned in Quran for rest their is guidance and as per those guidelines you can make your laws to suite your society & timeline - You can't implement all laws which Caliphs made for their society & environment in 6th century in 21st century.

 

[W.11]

A blind man is no judge of colour

General Zia accomplished a lot; and for someone who does not understand that, it is all futile.

Can we name a few leaders after his death who could do as much as Gen Zia did ?

he lost us siachen, and what he gained was because of US, period

 

[Fracker]

a) Is claim of God in Quran that we made it easy & complete is false? no IFs & BUTs - simple answer Yes or No

I didn't get it. elaborate

b) Why Arab speaking countries also have problems if knowing Arabic was all it needed?

Understanding what you are reading, this is what I mean.

If highlighted part was true than there wouldn't have been any problem about who is Muslim or Not - be sincere about it.

And which scholar go against this line? I am sincere, but I can't accept medical concept coming from a barber (unfortunately this do happens, where common people start giving recommendation for the things which don't belong to their field and people accept even. But that will not change the fact which I mentioned, & why bring Islam into it? it society flaw not zia or anyone else)

Everybody who don't wear ninja turtle dress don't walk naked in streets.

That's why I didn't said "Street" but posters and beaches. also becoming ninja (not ninja turtle) is compulsory

Show me any verse of Quran making it Mandatory and to be enforced?

Isn't it's mentioned in Quran to follow Prophet Muhammad (SAWW)? It's not farz, but sunnah which is accepted as close to farz even in any moderate fiqah you follow. But not enforced by the state. Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) never did it, nor any calipha.

Knowledge of 5 pillars of Islam and ethics and rights of people and society and following them is enough to become good Muslim, instead of reading literature to find excuses for implementing personal wishes over others and giving barbaric punishments to ones who don't agree.

For becoming good muslim, is much more then 5 pillars of Islam. It's also be good with your neighbors, kind to your daughters and wife, giving them good education, be fair in business, etc...

Also, Quran do consists upon some personal Laws, some Social Laws, as well as punishments. (what ever you wanna call it)

Madrassa's are there for religious education.



Quran is book of guidance not laws or science - Muslims needs to fix their mindset, only few laws are mentioned in Quran for rest their is guidance and as per those guidelines you can make your laws to suite your society & timeline - You can't implement all laws which Caliphs made for their society & environment in 6th century in 21st century.

will reply later..

 

[Black Mamba1]

Its unfortunate that Pakistan course in History can be determined by a single person's whims. A single person can ruin long your term prospect. In this thread also many Pakistanis are longing for a charismatic leader who will save them from this inferno.

If we compare this situation with India, a single leader how much charismatic he/she may be cannot change the course of the country radically in good or bad direction. System will prevent him to do so. Highly charismatic and radical leader like Modi ,even if elected cannot change the basic fabric of the country to a significant level for good or for bad. The course of India as a country is decided by resultant direction of a lot of conflicting interests. It makes progress of India slow ( unlike China) but definitely steady. System has developed built in checks and balances. This is bad for people who expect dramatic improvement in India but good for people who fear disaster due to a very bad leader.

So what enables India to embed this feature (good or bad) in Indian system unlike Pakistan-
Less feudalist society and Representative democracy is the biggest difference between India & Pakistan. In Indian democracy, there is significant participation of counter balancing forces like Hindu centric rightist BJP to moderate Congress to Leftist communists. Backward class representation by Samajwadi pary, JDU , RJD etc, Dalit representation by BSP. There are political parties to ensure interests of Southern sates , in central govt. So there is a game of conflicting interests in India. You have to satisfy majority of these conflicting stakeholders before getting approval for a policy in parliament. Just imagine the complexity!!! In other word diversity and conflicting intterests are weaknesses of India and at the same time biggest strength too. Further the four pillars of democracy are also a part of the system and integrated fully which provides further checks and balances. and stability

I believe Pakistan cannot get full benefit of democracy until feudalism is abolished but can definitely get the negatives of democracy without hindrance. Democracy/Industrialisation and feudalism have inherent conflicts and cannot flourish together. If you see in India feudalism still exists mostly in few north Indian states and they are not progressed as much compared to southern states. Democracy and Industrialisation are actually post feudal phenomenon in whole world with some exceptions.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not telling India’s system is better than what exists in Pakistan. I am just highlighting the differences. Pakistan may get an extraordinary leader by chance and can do miracles with him. But you have to wait for that, do not know how long.

To me the safest bet is to strengthen your state systems and reduce dependency on your leaders and off course increase effective participation of conflicting interests in the running of state machineries. It may not be the best bet but to me it is a safest bet.

When I look at China , it appears that democracy is holding us back but when I look at Pakistan I think we are fortunate

 

[t_for_talli]

1) Why not, it's always very hard to understand Quran while reading.. Unless you don't read is different thing
2) Sure, if you believe Mullah's give one.. But for us, it's "Aqeedah" which implies you are muslim or something else
3) Sure, its better then putting naked women on the posters, at the beach, or in text books.
4) Why not, beard is sunnah and Our prophet had one. Whats wrong with beard?
5) yeah, sure religious education is necessary and can live without writing some dumb thesis, around 99.9% people in the world are not scientists anyways (Ps I belong to .01% people ).
6) no, without schools how point number 5 will be possible?

Idea here is just, to show you there are two extremes, following Islam doesn't always implies TTP extreme. And Zia didn't gave birth to them.

Lastly Islam is complete social system, which include social laws as well as personal laws And no, lash people for not having beard or not covering up or blowing up the school are not belong of these laws.

There is nothing wrong as long as these are ones self beliefs but it is wrong to enforce your views on others. Allow women what she wants to wear(bikni or burka its her choice), similarly allow man to have facial hairs as he like (and no a foot long beard), who are you to decide weather Ahemadi is a Muslim or not

 

[Sugarcane]

I didn't get it. elaborate

You said that we can't understand Quran unless we read different things

Understanding what you are reading, this is what I mean.

If you can't understand it in your native language than what's the grantee that you will understand it by enforcing foreign language? Heck majority of people can't even understand Iqbal's poetry properly even though Urdu is our national.

And which scholar go against this line? I am sincere, but I can't accept medical concept coming from a barber (unfortunately this do happens, where common people start giving recommendation for the things which don't belong to their field and people accept even. But that will not change the fact which I mentioned, & why bring Islam into it? it society flaw not zia or anyone else)

What is the criteria of being scholar these days? Every mullah think that whatever religion he is propagating is true rest are not.

That's why I didn't said "Street" but posters and beaches. also becoming ninja (not ninja turtle) is compulsory

Show me where in Quran it's said that make your women Ninja and state should enforced it? Where God has given guidelines to women to safeguard their sanctity, before that there is also guidelines for men and one of those is lower your gaze. If someone is Muslim he/she should follow without any danda.

Isn't it's mentioned in Quran to follow Prophet Muhammad (SAWW)? It's not farz, but sunnah which is accepted as close to farz even in any moderate fiqah you follow. But not enforced by the state. Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) never did it, nor any calipha.

In your earlier post you said "Why not" for enforcing beard, now you are taking U-Turn.

For becoming good muslim, is much more then 5 pillars of Islam. It's also be good with your neighbors, kind to your daughters and wife, giving them good education, be fair in business, etc...

I already stated those things, and you have guidance for these aspect in Quran

Knowledge of 5 pillars of Islam and ethics and rights of people and society and following them is enough to become good Muslim, instead of reading literature to find excuses for implementing personal wishes over others and giving barbaric punishments to ones who don't agree.

Also, Quran do consists upon some personal Laws, some Social Laws, as well as punishments. (what ever you wanna call it)

Only few important ones are there i.e. Murder, Inheritance, Adulatory etc. - and non of those are barbaric like our scholars have made. for rest you can make laws which suites as per your society & time, only thing you have to care is that you don't go against laid principle (which is not be just, don't go to extreme and kind) and you don't need to become Arab to follow this.

 

[Black Mamba1]

Isn't it's mentioned in Quran to follow Prophet Muhammad (SAWW)? It's not farz, but sunnah which is accepted as close to farz .

If you keep beard just to follow the Great Prophet then few questions will arise-

- The Great Prophet used to wear a specific type of dress as he used to be in extremely Hot Arab. Should a Canadian Muslim in Vancouver have to follow the same dress in -20 deg temp.?
- The great Prophet never used plane, train, car as those were not invented that time. Should an ideal Muslim follow the same conveyance in present days just to follow the great Prophet?
- The Great Prophet used to eat a specific type of food suitable for desert areas. Should an Ideal Muslim follow the same food habit sitting in highly fertile Punjab where verities of crops are cultivated?

 

[Jf Thunder]

We need Kamal Ataturk

Hajaj Bin Yusuf

 

[Sugarcane]

Hajaj Bin Yusuf

Hajaj bin Yousuf will send his army sitting in Arabia and will wait for Maal-e-Ghanimat....

 

[Jf Thunder]

So, What should be done?

Arabic to replace Urdu?
Everybody should go to mullahs to get certificate of being Muslim and annually renew it?
Force women to become ninga turtle and confined to homes, lash in public if they don't conform?
Men to wear robes and 1 foot beard and lash if they don't conform?
Force people to go for religious education than scientific education?
Ban female education and blow up their schools?

Idea here is to eliminate radicals & extremists and their literature and make religion the personal matter and sane laws for social administration.

Islam does not require you to speak, even learn Arabic
where does Islam force you to make certificates
Islam doesn't force women to become ninja turtles, they should just cover their heads so the look decent, same goes for men they should look decent and both should guard their modesty
Men wear what they want as long as its decent
no one is forcing you for religious education, just read and understand Quran at home and that's ok.
having education is made obligatory upon every male and FEMALE Muslim, so please speak when you know what Islamic Laws are and it is these very laws which become the basis of the Sharia provided that some idiotic extremist mullah doesn't bend the rules to his extremist ideas, i don't know how everyone has made Islam look like an oppressive religion?

Hajaj bin Yousuf will send his army sitting in Arabia and will wait for Maal-e-Ghanimat....

no Hijjaj Bin Yusuf will send his army even against a stronger opponent, at the call of a captured Muslim female