Arab descriptions of early medieval South Asia

[FaujHistorian]

I don't wanna go there,Just expressing my opinion.Other trigger might be the decline of Mughal empire.All these big names from Lahore came only in 19th and 20th century.After the fall of Mughal Empire patronage given to Education in central India significantly declined on the other hand at the similar period Lahore has seen the establishment of some prestigious educational institutions.There were a few other institutions like this in central India Aligarh Muslim University and Allahabad University both in UP.Later on Jamia Milia came along.But I reckon oldest and most prestigious of them all was the University of Punjab and unlike erstwhile United Provinces Punjab provided more conducive environment for academics.

Urdu was encouraged by Brits from day 1.

Our sarkari baboo Akbar Alahbadi's discussion with his gora boss is on record.


The reason why Brits were encouraging Urdu was simple.

It was the language of pro-British troops from Punjab and Hindko speaking Pashtuns (although "being a Pashtun" may get tied only to Pashto speakers. but that's a separate discussion).

Without the contribution of these troops, it is likely that Brits would have suffered much bigger losses to their tiny numbers in 1857. And brits wanted to use Urdu language to setup cohesiveness of all the troops, even those who were not Panjabi or Pashtuns.

Urdu is lashkari or military language from many many centuries. And most of the troops even before Brits came from northren Punajb and settled area of KP (former Frontier).

This is why Urdu is so close in pretty much every way to its mother tongue of Punjabi.

Just compare telagu with Punjabi and Urdu and you will figure this out.


I realize that I am delving into some emotional period of 1850s. But then which period is NOT emotional.

This is why my analysis tends to focus on events and not some religious or nationalist mumbo jumbo.

 

[INDIC]

Urdu is lashkari or military language from many many centuries. And most of the troops even before Brits came from northren Punajb and settled area of KP (former Frontier).

Urdu as a Laskhari Zabaan is a myth. I read that in your Dawn newspaper. It was named Zaban e Urdu e Mualla at the time of Mughals during Shah Jahan's time.

Just compare telagu with Punjabi and Urdu and you will figure this out.

I realize that I am delving into some emotional period of 1850s.

Telugu belongs to Dravidian language. Punjabi and Urdu belongs to same language family but Punjabi is from Punjab and Urdu is from Uttar Pradesh.

 

[funtoosh]

urdu is alien to pak. punjabi sindhi and pashto are the 3 main languages of pak.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....

Telugu belongs to Dravidian language. Punjabi and Urdu belongs to same language family but Punjabi is from Punjab and Urdu is from Uttar Pradesh.

Agreed.

However keep in mind that army of any country is a great equalizer over long time. This is perhaps the largest institution in any country that slowly brings diverse groups, tribes, and regional languages together.

Countries with very large armies tend to have martial culture and common language.

Regions that contribute most during formative years of that army tend to dominate the language of that army.

Urdu as a Laskhari Zabaan is a myth. I
.

We can argue back and forth all night while sipping tea virtually. That's all about intellectual discussion.


Please take a sip and realize something.

Even today you can go to Turkey and find "urdu academy". Oh and remember they don't teach "Urdu-e-Mualla" there. Hint hint.


Not only that the word Sipahi and Sipah comes from Turkic language. It means a lancer who is given a piece of agricultural land to till during peace time.

large parts of the Punjab even from Mughal era, were given to "Sipahis".

British kept that tradition. I was fascinated when I learned about "Ghori paal Murabba"


And that centuries old tradition still continues in Pakistan.
-- Many of my Bihari family members in Karachi do not understand why Pak army officers get piece of land when they retire.


So here you have it.

A very high level view of why Punjabi culture dominated urdu language.


peace

 

[INDIC]

We can argue back and forth all night while sipping tea virtually. That's all about intellectual discussion.


Please take a sip and realize something.

Even today you can go to Turkey and find "urdu academy". Oh and remember they don't teach "Urdu-e-Mualla" there. Hint hint.


Not only that the word Sipahi and Sipah comes from Turkic language. It means a lancer who is given a piece of agricultural land to till during peace time.

large parts of the Punjab even from Mughal era, were given to "Sipahis".

British kept that tradition. I was fascinated when I learned about "Ghori paal Murabba"


And that centuries old tradition still continues in Pakistan.
-- Many of my Bihari family members in Karachi do not understand why Pak army officers get piece of land when they retire.


So here you have it.

A very high level view of why Punjabi culture dominated urdu language.


peace

Please read this since you once claimed Urdu is the dialect of Punjabi. Our Hindi school textbook teaches us poems in Khariboli, Brajbhasha, Awadhi dialects.

Khariboli dialect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Khariboli also known as Dehlavi, Kauravi, and Vernacular Hindustani, is a Western Hindi dialect spoken mainly in the rural surroundings of Delhi, the areas of Western Uttar Pradesh and the southern areas of Uttarakhand in India.

It is also known as Khari Boli, Khadiboli, Khadi Boli, or simply Khari. Khariboli is the prestige dialect of Hindustani, of which Standard Hindi and Standard Urdu are standard registers and literary styles.

the Dawn article which clarifies Urdu was never a Laskhari Zabaan.

Urdu’s origin: it’s not a ‘camp language’

It was Mir Amman (1750-1837) who first presumed Urdu was born that way. In his preface to ‘Bagh-o-Bahar’ (1802), he wrote that Mughal emperor Shah Jahan (who reigned between 1628 and 1658) made Delhi his capital and named its bazaar ‘Urdu-e-moalla

But when Grierson carried out massive research on the dialects and languages of India he admitted his mistake. After writing in the ninth volume of his famous ‘Linguistic survey of India’ (1916) that “Literary Hindustani [Urdu] is based on the vernacular Hindustani spoken in the Upper Doab and in the Western Rohilkhand”, Grierson adds in the footnotes that “it will be noticed that this account of Hindustani and its origin differs widely from that which has been given hitherto by most authors (including the present writer), which was based on Mir Amman’s preface to the ‘Bagh-o-Bahar’. According to him Urdu was a mongrel mixture of the languages of the various tribes who flocked to the Delhi bazar”.

Urdu nouns and adjective can have a variety of origins, such as Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Pushtu and even Portuguese, but ninety-nine per cent of Urdu verbs have their roots in Sanskrit/Prakrit.

 

[INDIC]

So here you have it.

A very high level view of why Punjabi culture dominated urdu language.


peace

Punjabi may be influencing Urdu in Pakistan but there is no such case in India. There is no Punjabi influence on the tradition of Urdu in Lucknow or Hyderabad or Bhopal etc. I have noticed Pakistanis are extremely used to bookish form of Urdu instead of regional vernacular common in India.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Punjabi may be influencing Urdu in Pakistan but there is no such case in India. There is no Punjabi influence on the tradition of Urdu in Lucknow or Hyderabad or Bhopal etc. I have noticed Pakistanis are extremely used to bookish form of Urdu instead of regional vernacular common in India.

In post-1947 era, what you say is true.

But that will make the "Indian Urdu" only 60+ years old. Obviously you don't want to say it. Right?

 

[INDIC]

In post-1947 era, what you say is true.

But that will make the "Indian Urdu" only 60+ years old. Obviously you don't want to say it. Right?

When Urdu is native to India, how your comments seems valid. Hyderabadi Urdu, Lucknavi Urdu or Bhopali Urdu are existing before Independence. In Lahore kids learn Urdu in school while speaking Punjabi as a first language, in Indian cities kids learn Urdu as a first language from their parents. In Karachi you may speak Urdu as first language but that evolve as mixture of various regional forms from India brought by migrants after independence.

 

[FaujHistorian]

When Urdu is native to India, how your comments seems valid. Hyderabadi Urdu, Lucknavi Urdu or Bhopali Urdu are existing before Independence..

you notice that all the Indian cities you mention in your post were dominated (centuries ago) by Muslim (read Punjabi) armies?

Take the case of Hyderabad. That is Daccan (and not Sindh ).

This city/region is a tiny island of Urdu in the sea of Telgu speakers?

Do you ever ponder on that?

While freeing yourself from the Hindustani nationalistic biases?

 

[INDIC]

you notice that all the Indian cities you mention in your post were dominated (centuries ago) by Muslim (read Punjabi) armies?

Punjabi armies?? But Punjabis were never the part of the Muslims armies.

Take the case of Hyderabad. That is Daccan (and not Sindh ).

This city/region is a tiny island of Urdu in the sea of Telgu speakers?

Do you ever ponder on that?

While freeing yourself from the Hindustani nationalistic biases?

If Hyderabadi Urdu exists in a small region in Andhra Pradesh are you inferring its insignificant. Please don't dare to relate Punjabis with Hyderabadi Urdu.

 

[Azazel]

Urdu was encouraged by Brits from day 1.

Our sarkari baboo Akbar Alahbadi's discussion with his gora boss is on record.


The reason why Brits were encouraging Urdu was simple.

It was the language of pro-British troops from Punjab and Hindko speaking Pashtuns (although "being a Pashtun" may get tied only to Pashto speakers. but that's a separate discussion).

Without the contribution of these troops, it is likely that Brits would have suffered much bigger losses to their tiny numbers in 1857. And brits wanted to use Urdu language to setup cohesiveness of all the troops, even those who were not Panjabi or Pashtuns.

Urdu is lashkari or military language from many many centuries. And most of the troops even before Brits came from northren Punajb and settled area of KP (former Frontier).

This is why Urdu is so close in pretty much every way to its mother tongue of Punjabi.

Just compare telagu with Punjabi and Urdu and you will figure this out.


I realize that I am delving into some emotional period of 1850s. But then which period is NOT emotional.

This is why my analysis tends to focus on events and not some religious or nationalist mumbo jumbo.

I think a more reasonable explanation of British encouragement of Urdu is Divide and rule policy.The whole Hindi–Urdu controversy in 19th century is purely a British creation.Or why would they replace Persian with Urdu written in Urdu script as the official standard of Hindi-speaking Northern provinces.They knew it will create friction between Hindus and Muslims and will eventually lead to communal division and sectarianism.Logically British should've re-merge the standards,using either Devanagari or Urdu script or at least should've given an equal status as both were just two diverging dialects of the same Hindustani language.

I realize that I am delving into some emotional period of 1850s. But then which period is NOT emotional.

I think you are right.When people attach subjective significance to their languages they get too emotional.We all have such problems.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I think a more reasonable explanation of British encouragement of Urdu is Divide and rule policy.The whole Hindi–Urdu controversy in 19th century is purely a British creation..

I beg to differ.

Brits were encouraging Urdu at the expense of Farsi (the Mughal court language) and not Hindi.

This was there way to separate the Punjabi dominated troops (Hindus + Sikhs + mostly Muslims) from the Mughal court and not to split them along religious lines.

Religious split between Hindus and Muslims had different roots. Mainly

1. Introduction of new banking laws in Punjab in 1860s
2. Formation of Congress of INdia in 1890s by a British dude.


peace

 

[FaujHistorian]

Punjabi armies?? But Punjabis were never the part of the Muslims armies.
:

Your views are exact same as my Bihari cousins. Read military history without "Bihar" tinted glass please.

you will know that most of the troops in Nawabs and emperors came from the areas along GT Road spanning from Charsadda in KP and Pothohar in Punjab.

Maharaja Ranjeet Singh used the same area for his military recruitment and so did the British.


So please learn a bit.


thank you

 

[Azazel]

I beg to differ.

Brits were encouraging Urdu at the expense of Farsi (the Mughal court language) and not Hindi.

This was there way to separate the Punjabi dominated troops (Hindus + Sikhs + mostly Muslims) from the Mughal court and not to split them along religious lines.

Religious split between Hindus and Muslims had different roots. Mainly

1. Introduction of new banking laws in Punjab in 1860s
2. Formation of Congress of INdia in 1890s by a British dude.


peace

I don't agree.Even though Urdu was replacing Farsi.Hindi written in Devanagari script(and the Hindus who used it) would have suffered heavily from the British language policy in 1860s.While the then British government encouraged both Hindi and Urdu as a medium of education in school, it discouraged Hindi or Nagari script for official purposes. This policy gave rise to a conflict between students educated in Hindi or Urdu for the competition of government jobs, which eventually took on a communal form.This mutually contradictory was deliberately done to create friction among communities and this what we know today as Divide and rule policy.And yes there were many other policies like this.But no one can over the significance of this one.

 

[FaujHistorian]

.... This policy gave rise to a conflict between students educated in Hindi or Urdu for the competition of government jobs, ....

You are one of the nicest posters here. So please do not take this as disrespect.


I disagree that Urdu or Hindi counted for "government jobs". Those jobs were mostly based on English language and Hindus did really really well. As they picked up English much more quickly during 1800s as opposed to many Muslims around Delhi.

While for Hindus English was just another language imposed by "foreign rulers", so they quickly switched out of FArsi

While many Muslims were hung up on Farsi based on their loyalties to old kingdom.


Sir Syed Ahmad Khan's whole thesis was based on emulating Hindus and thus learning English as quickly as possible.

Thus the "government job" aspect is much more complicated than what you wrote in your post.



urdu on the hand was mainly for the troops from northwest who were mostly Muslims, but most of the Sikhs and Hindus troops from Northwest were not hung up on devanagri.



They were all just troops.

peace