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And Now, The Charter of Demands—The Comedy Continues!

One should believe in action and not words!

True..that's what I'm basing it on..Who else gave good BVR, project help to build modern fighter aircraft, ballistic missile help, support when other countries were threatening sanctions? I'm very pragmatic myself!
 
To stand on ones own two feet is important. But Pakistan needs the help of a major power or superpower for this. It needs to catch up on lost time basically. There's no use reinventing the wheel like Bharat wants to with things like the LCA (which they've now seeked outside help for). Better to used the tested stuff, and build from there. Only China would be prepared to let Pakistan have this stuff. This immediately gives Pakistan a technological catch up card. Once it has caught up, Pakistan can then think about standing on its own two feet. I wouldnt say it will take long, depending on the progress of China, and on Pakistan itself of course..Remember China was the one to suggest to Pakistan to "stand on your own two feet", and suggested they become joint partners in the manufacture of the JF-17. The Sino-Pak relationship is deeper than just a symbiotic one.
This is the exactly line of reasoning used in the 50s when Pakistan joined CENTO and SEATO. Even the catch phrases used are the same... but that "immediate catch up card" never really gets cashed in does it?
The truth of the matter is that for developing nations who truly hope to stand on their own two feet, a harsh period of re-inventing your own wheel is required, at least for core technologies. What you are suggesting here (and by no means would it be a new idea) is essentially an easy way out for a short term benefit. After all, Pakistan was in a very good position in the early 60s on account of their reliance upon their superpower benefactors... but then what happened?

You keep mentioning China, but you fail to see that the only reason they are in a good position today is because of the decades of reverse engineering and other such initiatives in core capabilities. For this they sacrificed by having a low standard of living for a long time. They too sought help from outside for their initial endeavors, but as time goes by they have become more and more autonomous. Your tongue and cheek reference to Bharat is actually an important one to learn from. The only reason India has a chance to propel itself on the global scale is because of their lessons learnt from developing their own core requirements, and of course paying the same price as the Chinese. India may over a decade behind China, but they are getting there, and unless there is a major calamity like a war, they too will become a global power like China in the next 2 decades.

What everyone has to realize is that no party ever "lets" another have anything without a price. China may have promised the moon to Pakistan when they were in the process of becoming a superpower, but do you honestly think they are somehow under any pressure to keep their word once they actually gain that status? And with all fairness... should anyone be held to such a promise? For now there may be a common interest to negate India's growth. But what happens when India opens it's market floodgates to China? Do you expect China not to pick up their trillions and go there for the sake of their economy? Isn't this exactly what the Americans did 15 years ago?

What you are suggesting here is that Pakistan merely change one renter for another because the second one seems nicer for now. But history clearly indicates that in the end, each benefactor uses Pakistan as a playground to further their own geostrategic interests for a limited time and then moves on to greener pastures. Why perpetuate this cycle?
 
True..that's what I'm basing it on..Who else gave good BVR, project help to build modern fighter aircraft, ballistic missile help, support when other countries were threatening sanctions? I'm very pragmatic myself!
Actually it seems that the Chinese are far more pragmatic. They have used Pakistan to militarily challenge their regional adversary.

A truly pragmatic person would realize that Pakistan's true salvation lies not in fighter jets and missiles but in basic infrastructure, secular education, academic institutions and general stability.

Even with JF-17s it is highly unlikely that the Pakistani armed forces could withstand their Indian counterparts in an open conflict. The only thing that Pakistan has is nuclear deterrence and the fact that India will never start a war given that such an endeavor would be antithetical to their primary goal of Economic development. The JF-17s and the missiles are essentially a waste of priceless and highly limited resources
 
Actually it seems that the Chinese are far more pragmatic. They have used Pakistan to militarily challenge their regional adversary.

A truly pragmatic person would realize that Pakistan's true salvation lies not in fighter jets and missiles but in basic infrastructure, secular education, academic institutions and general stability.

Even with JF-17s it is highly unlikely that the Pakistani armed forces could withstand their Indian counterparts in an open conflict. The only thing that Pakistan has is nuclear deterrence and the fact that India will never start a war given that such an endeavor would be antithetical to their primary goal of Economic development. The JF-17s and the missiles are essentially a waste of priceless and highly limited resources

Given the history between the two countries it would be foolish to ignore the potential military threat from India. What your analysis does, IMO, is reduce this to a black and white, good and evil issue - The Indians want nothing but economic development, while the Pakistanis are forever chasing shadows- that is blinded one sidedness. No doubt that India has been an economic miracle of sorts recently, but it is impossible to calculate the effects that a militarily strong (relatively of course) Pakistan has had in terms of deterring military adventures by India, and therefore it would be fallacious to conclude that Pakistan's investment in its military has been for naught.

If the amount of trust that would be required for Pakistan to follow the path you outlined actually existed between India and Pakistan, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, and Kashmir would be a footnote in history. That trust deficit does exist, and it is the primary driver for military expenditure, by both countries.

Of course in India's case that trust deficit exists between her and China as well - and it would be just as fallacious to argue that India should spend her resources on social sectors, rather than Nuclear submarines, since China is concerned with her "primary goal of economic development".

It is extremely premature to be considering any sort of slowdown in military investment, though I agree with you a hundred and ten percent that Pakistan is only going to achieve its potential with massive investments in its human resources and social sectors.
 
Given the history between the two countries it would be foolish to ignore the potential military threat from India. What your analysis does, IMO, is reduce this to a black and white, good and evil issue - The Indians want nothing but economic development, while the Pakistanis are forever chasing shadows- that is blinded one sidedness. No doubt that India has been an economic miracle of sorts recently, but it is impossible to calculate the effects that a militarily strong (relatively of course) Pakistan has had in terms of deterring military adventures by India, and therefore it would be fallacious to conclude that Pakistan's investment in its military has been for naught.

If the amount of trust that would be required for Pakistan to follow the path you outlined actually existed between India and Pakistan, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, and Kashmir would be a footnote in history. That trust deficit does exist, and it is the primary driver for military expenditure, by both countries.
I don't think it's a good vs evil issue. It is however a good decision vs bad decision issue. The problem is that the Pakistani leadership has consistently made poor decisions which have resulted not only in the instability of Pakistan itself but also put the region and the rest of the world at risk. I can't possibly look beyond the mistake of nurturing radical Islamism as a potential weapon and the resultant chaotic metastasis; not to mention initiating the Kargil conflict. Both of these moves are damn near suicidal in nature and completely illogical (as is the apparent "doctrine" to launch nuclear weapons upon India if US were to try and confiscate Pakistan's nuclear arsenal).

The animosity is equally prevalent in India I'm sure who are also aware that Pakistan finance and support a full fledged insurgency in Kashmir (greatly reduced since 2002). However, India in both 1999 and 2002 has shown through it's restraint that it is far more concerned about it's economic welfare than engaging Pakistan in combat which would actually get a lot of public support. As I have mentioned previously, Tom Friedman has done a really good job writing about it in his book "The World is Flat." Also, (and this will probably open a can of worms) but how many military adventures has India actually initiated against Pakistan?

From a purely strategic point of view, the only thing that is keeping deterrence is the nuclear arsenal. But other than that, the military hardware spending is really of no consequence because in an open conflict, it really wouldn't matter.
Also, in regards to your comment about India being an economic miracle of sorts recently, I have to disagree. It may have gained prominence recently, but the factors responsible for this upswing were certain decisions made a very long time ago. Now I'm not saying that India hasn't made wrong decisions... they certainly have, but in their case the net positives outweigh the negatives.

AgnosticMuslim said:
Of course in India's case that trust deficit exists between her and China as well - and it would be just as fallacious to argue that India should spend her resources on social sectors, rather than Nuclear submarines, since China is concerned with her "primary goal of economic development".

It is extremely premature to be considering any sort of slowdown in military investment, though I agree with you a hundred and ten percent that Pakistan is only going to achieve its potential with massive investments in its human resources and social sectors.
India hasn't had to financially support a mass insurgency in China for decades. So that certainly frees more funds up for military installations and hardware thereby creating a genuine deterrent. Also their military purchases since 1990 have been reflective of the economic upswing.
 
^^ I'm actually falling into the parity trap myself.

One of other problems when it comes to Pakistan is the incessant comparisons to India (which I am myself guilty of in the post above).

Overspending on military hardware that wouldn't really change the outcome of a conventional war has more to do with it being a bad decision for Pakistan than anything for India. Not all plans have to be made with India in mind, this is what drove Zia to endorse the radicals in the first place.
 
Energon,

I disagree with a lot of your assumptions, but there lies the fun in exchanging views!

Did we make bad decisions in supporting the Taliban and the Mujahideen? I would respectfully suggest that the answer is not easy at all in the case of the former. We talked a bit about that on another thread, and I would suggest that geopolitical circumstances essentially tied Pakistan's hands as to what course it would follow. If there is a villain in this story, I would consider him to be Zia-ul-Haq. Not for supporting the Afghan Jihad, which any leader may have done considering the threat, but because of his domestic policies that changed the face of Pakistani society.

As far as the Kashmir Jihad is concerned, I think you are mistaken as to the amount it "cost" the GoP. This was pretty much a war fought dirt cheap. Resources for the Mujahideen were available from donations from Pakistanis, charities etc. - similar to what the Taliban are trying to do. It could also be argued that a lack of flexibility from India's side in discussing options other than the LOC have contributed to the lack of normalcy between the two nations.

The JF17 program is extremely reasonable as far as costs go - in fact the whole idea was because of the need of an "affordable" fighter. I don't see the 250 million spent over ten or so years as making or breaking Pakistan. What did harm us was the insidious corruption and lack of institutional development all those years that retarded our progress. I would also like to point out that Pakistan was not making any major military purchases during the time its economy was stagnant, arms purchases have only recently picked up, and though some articles have suggested that Pakistan was the largest arms purchaser (5 billion or so) I haven't been able to determine how much of that is covered by US funds for the WoT. The only major contract I can think of, that Pakistan is paying out of its own pocket, is the Saab Erieye system (about a billion). So Pakistan has been quite conservative with its military expenditure.

I have commented on the doctrine issue on another thread so I'll refrain from saying to much here, but if you cannot use your nukes to prevent an invasion/attack by a superpower, then what is the point of having a nuclear deterrent?

I'll leave the who initiated which war issue aside, since it will go nowhere. Friedman is entitled to his view as are you and as are most Pakistanis. Finger pointing about who did what first leads no where, as is amply evident from the circus of analysts and intellectuals in the Mid East conflict. What is fact is that there has been violence and war between the two sides from the moment they both gained independence, and there is a lingering, internationally recognized territorial dispute between them. In such a situation it is hard to argue against Pakistan's policy to maintain a credible defensive military, and to supplement its shortfalls in numbers and technology with a lower nuclear threshold. At the end of the day, it is about ensuring the stability and survival of a nation in the face of a "hostile" and numerically and technologically larger enemy.

A strong conventional military does have its advantages, because what if India were to call the nuclear bluff? That essentially puts all your eggs in one very hard to reach basket. A country needs the ability to defend itself by conventional means as well.

Here is a quote from a paper Bushroda provided a link to, that paints a different picture of the events in 2002 - not one of "overwhelming economic concerns" and "responsibility" but of being deterred by the possibility of a protracted conventional conflict, thereby justifying the investment in conventional forces:

Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are considered to be absolutely essential to deter India from undertaking a wide range of coercive political-military behavior that could undermine Pakistan’s territorial integrity and political sovereignty. However, it is important to recognize that Pakistani defense planners still consider their conventional armed forces to be the first line of defense against Indian conventional military attack and the backbone of the country’s overall deterrence posture. It could be said that 95 percent of Pakistan’s strategic deterrent relies on a robust conventional military capability and deliberate and repeated demonstrations of the Pakistan leadership’s readiness to employ it decisively if attacked—or even seriously threatened with military attack.

Pakistan’s military conduct during the 2001-2002 crisis with India revealed this orientation. When India mobilized its armed forces for attack shortly after the 13 December 2001 terrorist strike against the Indian Parliament, Pakistan responded by immediately putting its own armed forces on a war footing. Pakistani military leaders were very satisfied that their ground forces were able to reach their designated strike positions more quickly than their opposite numbers, thus eliminating the element of surprise and nullifying any advantage that India might have by striking across the border first. It is widely speculated that Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee decided against a military attack when his troops had moved into their strike positions by the middle of January because Pakistani troop deployments indicated that Islamabad was well prepared to counter-strike at locations of its choosing, thus eliminating any advantage India would have gained by attacking first.
Nonproliferation Policy Education Center

It would be ideal if we didn't have to maintain a relatively large conventional military, but history cannot be unwritten, and trust will take a long time to build.
 
Energon and Agnostic Muslim,

It is a pleasure to read your posts and also be educated on the PsOV.
 
I'd disagree. US-Pakistan is more of a symbiotic relationship. When US needs Pakistan, it becomes its ally. When there's nothing Pakistan can do for it, then there's no relationship. China has been there throughout. China doesnt have much to gain and probably more to lose by supporting the emergency when other allies? are supporting corrupt politicians and throwing it out of their instituions. Ally-wise, easily the strongest. There's something more fundamental within the Sino-Pak relationship. Though China does have interests in Pakistan. It also knows the value of Pakistan geostrategically for it.

Forget about India. China could crush India militarily and is years ahead of India technologically and economically. It's not an obvious ally, but perhaps similar sets of circumstances came about in both countries that set them on a path to becoming allies.

Road runner,
I apologize for the late reponse and notice that things have moved on a bit since your post which I allude to. Unfortunately too many work commitments!!!
A symbiotic relationship is one , in my view where 2 beings depend on each other for survivaland sustenance and gain from one another. While Pak China relationship qualifies in this regards, I would disagree that Pak American relationship could be called that. Americans have always been fair weather friends and their deed done depart with no compulsion to help Pakistan, and even hinder it in many ways as you all know. I would also disagree with your notion that Pakistan has not done anything for china. In fact Pakistans role in bringing China to the international fore front has been a monumentous one. I allude to the establishment of relations between China and the Americans which has propelled Chinese economy into its present state. The other role that Pakistan has played is keeping pressure up on India. This serves China in many diverse ways, which i do not want to go into. Gwadar is another point of help for China. There are other ways in which Pakistan provides input which is of help in key areas which are generally kept under wraps. so in short to say that Pakistan does nothing for China is unfair to Pakistan.
Unfortunately, it is a common error, and I say this with the utmost of respect to your intelligence, to diregard India and its power projection in the region. It would be a grievious error to disregard it both on the part of Pakistan and China. I disagree that in todays world one country can wipe out or crush another one as easily as you have alluded to. Infact, I say this today to all of you, do not be surprised if 10 yrs from now, India Pakistan and China would be mounting a joint defence against foreign interests.
What Iwanted to reiterate is that we have a national tendency to rely on this or that power to help us out in tough times. This is wrong and it is imperative that Pakistan looks after its strategic interests itself rather than rely on others.
i have also heard talk onthis forum about the Former East PAkistan, and How China did or did not help us. Brothers, I say this with utter sadness, that it was the stupidity of our own people and not India or even Mukti Bahini, or MUjeeb, that resulted in Bangladesh.If Political will is not there and the perception is to separate the two parts why in the name of hell do we want outside forces to help us! If we wanted help all that was needed was to accept the polish resolution in UN and accept ceasefire, rather than the stupid act of tearing a resolution and the theatrics that were exhibited at that time! However this is another debate.
in short the policy of self reliance with help available from whatever source should be our mandate and not rely on any alliance.
WaSalam
:pakistan:
Araz
 
Hi,

The relationship that america has with pakistan is similiar to an american boyfirend girlfriend relationship---no more no less. The problem with pakistan is that it didnot know how to get a " PRE-NEPTUAL AGREEMENT " signed up front. Actually our leaders were too shy to ask for it---they firmly believed in the ideology of " jo aap ki marzi, dey dain " ( you may give what you want to ).

The word Kargil has come up again---please don't start on it again---if it wassn't for kargil---india would not be sitting down with Musharraf.

Henry Kissinger would fly to pakistan and then pakistan would arrange for him to meet the chinese or fly to china. Pakistan is the architect behind china's representation into the world body.

Pakistan and china already know that india will have to join hands with them in the future to be an asian power house--only thing holding things back is india which has just started to enjoy its world known recognition of being somebody. As this thing is so very new, india does not know how to give it up, its unique position of strength and form a tri-fecta where he may have to deal with pakistan on equal basis. It is a tought and a bitter pill to swallow. Sooner the better.
 
Hi,

The relationship that america has with pakistan is similiar to an american boyfirend girlfriend relationship---no more no less. The problem with pakistan is that it didnot know how to get a " PRE-NEPTUAL AGREEMENT " signed up front. Actually our leaders were too shy to ask for it---they firmly believed in the ideology of " jo aap ki marzi, dey dain " ( you may give what you want to ).

The word Kargil has come up again---please don't start on it again---if it wassn't for kargil---india would not be sitting down with Musharraf.

Henry Kissinger would fly to pakistan and then pakistan would arrange for him to meet the chinese or fly to china. Pakistan is the architect behind china's representation into the world body.

Pakistan and china already know that india will have to join hands with them in the future to be an asian power house--only thing holding things back is india which has just started to enjoy its world known recognition of being somebody. As this thing is so very new, india does not know how to give it up, its unique position of strength and form a tri-fecta where he may have to deal with pakistan on equal basis. It is a tought and a bitter pill to swallow. Sooner the better.

Dear mastan Khan.
I fully agree with your post. India is a regional power whether we like it or not. Similarly, India needs to mature with that concept to responsibly take up its role. It will take time, but it will come about. You know the strategic and world economic focus is shifting towards Asia again. China and India will be the leaders and Pakistan will develop as a consequence of being in the viscinity.Money will bring its own problems like unwarranted interest from the powers that be to derail this process and consequently the joint defence concept. Believe me it has been discussed at the highest possible level. All that we need is peace and calm in our society and a little respect for the law and we will be fine.
Regards
Araz
 
Turkey and China are Pakistan's best friends. Its a pity that Gul had to meet Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif. Imran Khan at least some decency and doesn't just embarass himself. And he at least accepts a few of Musharraf's improvements, something the other two have failed to do. Turkey and Pakistan are brothers and they will always stand by Pakistan as Pakistan will stand by them.
 
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