Ancient Pakistan - Kharosthi Script

[Indus Pakistan]

You read the actual history not your 'pakistan studies'.

Do you read any books or just snort gulps of Ganga water and then run around naked like a aborginal high priest?

I notice I asked you to provide primary source for your claim but as expected it did not come. No surprises there.

 

[xairhossi]

OP failed to mention one time that gandhara was the name of Peshawar, and was one of the largest cities at the time... yet he mentions Taxila as a part of gandhara.

It appears the attempts at stealing heritage isn't limited to indians.

LOL "centered around Taxila". K buddy... rrrrright.

Gandhara's major centres were in Northern Punjab (Potohar + Hazara), with Taxila in NW Punjab being the most advanced centre. Remember, even the Peshawer and Swat Valleys are (or until recently were) mostly Hindkowan (Punjabi dialect) speaking.

Also, Gandharan language was a Northwestern Indo-Aryan language, related to Potohari/Northern Punjabi dialects unlike Pashto which is East Iranic and has it's origins somewhere in the Suleiman Mountains area near Zhob-Quetta.

 

[Mian Babban]

Remember, even the Peshawer and Swat Valleys are (or until recently were) mostly Hindkowan (Punjabi dialect) speaking.

Says who?. There is not a single Hindko speaking village in Peshawar. The ones in old walled city of Peshawar, known as Pishoris, are not the ancient inhabitants of the region. The Peshawar city was actually a fort, Bagram, held by Mughals and it was peopled with groups tied to them. The ancient people of entire Peshawar valley, the Gandharians, have become completely Pashtunized and have nothing to do with the city-dwellers called Pishoris. Peshawar fort was built by Babur, was destroyed by Dilazak Pashtuns in 1530s and was again rebuilt by Humayun. It was in the Akbar times that rule over Peshawar was consolidated and the fort was strongly garrisoned with troops and families. These Pishoris are not homogeneous. You will also find people among them who are of Turani (Turkestani) descent and even those who claim that they are of Afghan descent, and also a whole lot of Kashmiris who also settled in Durrani period.

The owners of Peshawar have been Pashtuns, and they were confirmed as 'Arbabs' of Peshawar by Mughals. Mughals, garrisoned in Peshawar fort (and the small city attached to it) needed the cooperation of Khalil, Mohmand and Daudzais around them.

Also how you reached to a conclusion that Hindko was spoken in SWat valley?. Akhund Darweza informs us that at the time of Yousafzai conquest of Swat (around 1515 AD) , Farsi and Gabari (a dialect of Farsi) was spoken there.

And lets check Britannica what it says about Gandhara ;

"Gandhara, historical region in what is now northwestern Pakistan, corresponding to the Vale of Peshawar and having extensions into the lower valleys of the Kābul and Swāt rivers. https://www.britannica.com/place/Gandhara

 

[Narcissist]

Gandhara's major centres were in Northern Punjab (Potohar + Hazara), with Taxila in NW Punjab being the most advanced centre.

Gandhara's centers were first Charssadda, then Peshawar, then a place called Hund (not in Punjab). There was also Taxila, but Taxila also at one point was under Mauryans.

Any literature you read of the region that refers to Gandhara is almost exclusively using it as a synonym for Peshawar.

Remember, even the Peshawer and Swat Valleys are (or until recently were) mostly Hindkowan (Punjabi dialect) speaking.

lol... no they weren't. This is just anti-Pak internet propaganda. They try to make people believe that the true motherland of Pashtuns is elsewhere, and the Pakistani regional Pashtuns are displaced natives.

Interesting how neatly this narrative fits with modern day borders (only 70 years old... as opposed to 1000s of years of history).

The reality is there was no real defined borders, and the origins are probably between both sides of what is today the Durand line.

Also, Gandharan language was a Northwestern Indo-Aryan language, related to Potohari/Northern Punjabi dialects unlike Pashto which is East Iranic and has it's origins somewhere in the Suleiman Mountains area near Zhob-Quetta.

lol... again, the source of the Pashto language is also a mystery, and it's certainly not assumed to be from Zhob-Quetta.

 

[UnitedPak]

I am only pointing to the history. Talking of pakistan , there is a term called 'east of Indus and west of indus'. East of Indus is always under influence of Bharat, where as west of Indus is under the influence of Bharat and Persia.

So essentially, Karachi and Mohenjo daro are Persian?

No, because yours is a simplistic and quite frankly idiotic explanation of a complex region. Not to mention completely wrong too.
Indus river was never a border. It was and has always been the center of major kingdoms and powers, considering that it feeds the most fertile lands in the subcontinent. Mountain ranges like the Himalayas and deserts like Thar desert can be considered natural borders, but not rivers.

Is Ganges a border too?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

So essentially, Karachi and Mohenjo daro are Persian?

Nice one. That deflated the ...... ! I have read your earlier threads from 2007 which are inspiring. Would be nice if you were 'active' again?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Is Ganges a border too?

Yeh I have noticed. Gandoo's delude themselves that River Indus is a border which runs against facts. Generally in human geograpaphy you learn that river basins act as human cultivars. In other words the river joins rather than divides as humans settle on both banks. This can be seen in Nile or Euphrates. Both acted as fulcrums or foci and not dividers. As you note Mohenjo Daro is on the west bank, so is Mehr Garh, Rehman Dehri. Indeed all the pre-IVc sites are on the western highlands of Indus.

As regards boundary. The Indus basin is well defined. The salt marshes of Rann of Kutch and Thar desert effectively divide most of Indus basin from Ganga India. Only in the north tip of Punjab is there a more "fuzzy" boundary. Indian Punjab does indeed fall in the Indus basin as rainfall from there moves west. However Harayan is in Ganga because it's streams drain east. All this is very evident on a satelitte image. In stark contrast Indus flows south into the Arabian Sea. Ganga flows in opposite direction toward east into Bay of Bengal.

 

[Srinivas]

So essentially, Karachi and Mohenjo daro are Persian?

No, because yours is a simplistic and quite frankly idiotic explanation of a complex region. Not to mention completely wrong too.
Indus river was never a border. It was and has always been the center of major kingdoms and powers, considering that it feeds the most fertile lands in the subcontinent. Mountain ranges like the Himalayas and deserts like Thar desert can be considered natural borders, but not rivers.

Is Ganges a border too?

Indus River basin is never a major power center, rather a ruled by small kingdoms under the influence of Bharat , Persia or Central Asia.


There are no significant kingdoms from Indus which spread their influence but surrounded by great kingdoms of the past.

The region has rich history because it is situated at the cross roads and trade routes passed through it.

 

[UnitedPak]

Indus River basin is never a major power center, rather a ruled by small kingdoms under the influence of Bharat , Persia or Central Asia.


There are no significant kingdoms from Indus which spread their influence but surrounded by great kingdoms of the past.

What a ridiculous and desperate assertion.

Indus region gave name to the entire subcontinent. The region represents the majority of Punjabis, Sindhis and Pashtuns than anywhere else and was the power center behind 1000 years of Muslim rule in the subcontinent.

I cannot think of any significant Bharati influence on the Indus region. Its pretty much been one way traffic.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Fundamental idea needs revisiting.

Unless and untill Paks stops seeing Indus just as a river... the very Civilisation Ethos will remains confused. Hence the total owership thereof.

Every river separates land in two.. and every river brings life to both equally.

Indus is neither just a river passing through the Land nor it is just a Nile bringing feritlity to the lands...

Looking at Indus through a broader, say sub-material and meta-material perspective, can and shall advance the Civilisational Dialectis of Pak, both Ancient and Present.

So, the question that arise is What is Indus? Same as What is Pak?

 

[wiseone2]

What a ridiculous and desperate assertion.

Indus region gave name to the entire subcontinent. The region represents the majority of Punjabis, Sindhis and Pashtuns than anywhere else and was the power center behind 1000 years of Muslim rule in the subcontinent.

I cannot think of any significant Bharati influence on the Indus region. Its pretty much been one way traffic.

Which dynasty that ruled India was based in Pakistan proper ? Mughals ruled from Delhi. Their allies Rajputs were based in Rajasthan

 

[Chhatrapati]

What a ridiculous and desperate assertion.

Indus region gave name to the entire subcontinent. The region represents the majority of Punjabis, Sindhis and Pashtuns than anywhere else and was the power center behind 1000 years of Muslim rule in the subcontinent.

I cannot think of any significant Bharati influence on the Indus region. Its pretty much been one way traffic.

Keeping that aside, Indus river basin rarely had a stable power.

Most of the powerful kingdoms throughout Indian history were in the east coast, west coast or based in Delhi.

While western sector was essentially a punching bag for invaders.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

After the Indus Script which was native to the Indus River region Northern Pakistan (centred around Taxila near Islamabad/Rawalpindi) the Kharosthi script took root. This script was derived from Middle Eastern script similar to Aramaic (spoken by Jesus) from Judea/Palestine/Phonecian (modern Lebanon) and arrived through Iran via the Persian Empire under whose influence most of ancient Pakistan had fallen. The Kharosthi script dominated all the region around Taxila (Gandhara) about 2,400 years ago and was used to write the local language of ancient Northern Pakistan - Gandhari. It spread over the Indus region including penetrating into Kabul region of Afghanistan. It also spread via the route of Karakorum Highway north into China. Buddhism was passed to China via Kharosthi script and traces of it have been found in Hotan in Chinese Sinkiang Uighur province. The modern China-Pakistan compact has historical precedent to this period where Buddhism from Taxila in Pakistan passed up north along the Karakorum to China thus pointing to a ancient connection between these the land of the Indus and the land of the Yellow River. How apt it is that today the capital of Pakistan is next to Taxila and the KKH begins adjacent to Taxila on it's way to Kashgar in China.

I was messing around earlier on and this is how I wrote Pakstan in Kharosthi Script which was written right to left in congruence to it's Middle Eastern roots.

And here is the script. It is important to note that Kharosthi Script was based on and very similar to Aramaic Script as usedin Palestine/Judea region of Middle East. It moved to Pakistan via the influence of Persian Empire.

Aramaic Inscription, Sirkap, Pakistan

From Shanshan, China.

Greek style pedestel, Gandhara, Pakistan with Kharosthi Script.

Kharosthi weiting, Tarim Basin, Uighur province, China.


This all points to how Pakistan has always been a midpoint between the Western Asia and China. The Kharosthi Script derived from Aramaic was transferred to China from Taxila, in Pakistan. In that sense CPEC and Karakorum Highway are just natural continuity between two ancient civilizations. The Yellow and Indus Rivers. Today China and Pakistan join together on a ancient tradition between the two. Who said history repeats itself?

Gandhara Civilization.

*Ps. For those wondering what were Ganga's doing, well besides peeling bananas they evolved another script that dominated the Ganga Indian region. It was called the Brahmi Script.

@Chinese Bamboo @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Sinopakfriend @SinoSoldier @PAKISTANFOREVER @Zibago @maximuswarrior @AndrewJin @beijingwalker @TaiShang @ahojunk

Made a keyboard for this language, while a team of us are working on reviving this script. We have found that it pairs much more naturally with the native languages of Pakistan than Nastaliq and is much easier to learn.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Made a keyboard for this language, while a team of us are working on reviving this script. We have found that it pairs much more naturally with the native languages of Pakistan than Nastaliq and is much easier to learn.

Let us know more about this please. I am so pleased that many Pakistani's are begining to take interest and pride in their past. For too long our heritage has been plundered by others. The number of times I have clashed in Western forums with people from Odisha, Assam, Tamil Nadu, Telangana bragging about our heritage I can't count.

Certainly there is awakening going on.

 

[Republic]

I am not disputing that chart but dravidian languages use the same grammar as Sanskrit. Only the script is different.

Dravidian languages don't use grammar of Sanskrit, Sanskrit use mix grammar of Zorashtrian and Dravidian.

Sanskrit is a pidgin language like Urdu and is evolved between first Bc to Fourth BC.
It is a mix of earlier Zorashtrian and Prakrit.
You can clearly see the evolution of Sanskrit if you read stone inscriptions found in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, in chronological order from old to new.

This myth has been deliberately spread to prove the antiquity of Vedas.

The Indus civilization is a continuous civilization. People of this area used to follow Dhyan, a kind of Buddhism. Actually Buddhism was not invented by Gautama Buddha, he was merely another Budha ( awakened soul). in the line of many other earlier Budhas.

There was a stupa found in Mohenzodaro beside that great bath.

Earlier historians were calling it a Kushan era stupa but now an Italian archeologist has proved that it was made same time as the great bath. There were quite a few broken figurine unerthed which are kept in Pakistani museum. These are never studied properly, but one cursory look can tell that these are figure of a person siting in Dhyan, like Gautama Buddha. See the similarity between Budha heads in second pic, the top left was found in Mohenzodaro, and rest are of Gautama Buddha from letter period.