UnitedPak,
It is useless to have a debate with bharti people, The IVC only existed on the banks of the Indus. The Meherghar Civilization only existed in Pakistan. Therefore they are Pakistani Civilizations. neither the IVC nor the Meherharh people were Hindu. Bharat was jungle then–still in the “hunter-gatherer” stage of evolution.
1) Pakistanis don’t need to claim ancestry/heritage from Persians or afghans because Pakistani Civilization is 5000 years old, Pakistan is the latest avatar of Indus valley civilization, While bhartis at that time were hunter gatherers the Indus valley Pakistanis were among the first to develop a system of uniform weights and measures, World's first sewage and water systems were created in Harappa Pakistan.
2) Bharat has no civilization to proud of except stealing the heritage from its neighbors.
Bharat have no history that is why they try to rob Pakistan of its history
The Melhulans were the Indus people who lived on the River Indus. They were the early ancestors of the present day Pakistanis. The DNA results from the remains of the people in the graves show 98% congruence with the Baluch, Punjabis, Pakhtuns and Sindhis of the current era. The facts remain that the people of the Indus were completely different from the people of the Ganges.
It is regrettable that you start with the proposition that it is impossible to have a debate with "bharati" people (incidentally, the use of that term is considered as derogatory as the use of the term P***, so please desist from using it in future), without considering that in a debate, while two opposite opinions may be held initially, the premise of the debate must be that facts and their rational analysis will finally prevail, not a dogged insistence on having one's own opinion upheld. Unless you free yourselves to consider the facts, you will find yourselves continuing to discuss this issue till infinity.
First, Indus Valley Civilisation remains and settlements have been found as far north as Shortugai, on the banks of the Oxus. Try to remember that the term Indus Valley Civilisaton was given to the culture in question due to the major settlements initially discovered on the banks of the Indus, and due to no other reason. It is surprising to see a label being used to justify a cultural coherence with present-day inhabitants, when there is no linkage between that culture and any that occurred ever since. Something, perhaps, like present-day Turks claiming the credit for the founding and administration of Troy.
Once again, at slower speed: at that time, there was no Pakistan, which is a modern concept. There could not have been a coherent culture shared by the present geographical extent of Pakistan, and the IVC was not such a culture; it extended well beyond the boundaries of present-day Pakistan, for starters, so the opening premise is false.
There is no question of this, or that, or the culture being Hindu. Hindu was a religious label, not a cultural one. The term Hindu covered a multitude of people, from nine river valleys:
- the Gangetic Valley;
- the Brahmaputra valley;
- the Mahanadi valley;
- the Krishna valley;
- the Godavari valley;
- the Kaveri valley;
- the Tungabhadra basin;
- the Narmada valley;
- the Indus valley.
Each had its own distinct culture, each shared traits of the culture of the others. Religion, language and literature were unifying factors.
Your statement that Pakistanis are the latest avatars of the Indus Valley Civilisation is regrettably untrue; there was no inheritance of this unique culture that can be detected in subsequent years. If they were the latest avatars, Pakistanis would know the language that was spoken there, the script that was used there, and would have had a continuous record of living in those urbanisations from then till now. That is not the case. At best, some of the people of those cities remain in the population around the cities, but have completely forgotten everything to do with those cities.
They even had to be discovered by aliens. If you are not aware, two railway engineers, the Brunton brothers, stripped the Mohenjodaro site of bricks for ballast; the ballasted tracks are still there for proud Pakistanis to see on the track running from Karachi to Lahore. So much for your being the avatar of the original inhabitants of those cities. Formal investigations started with Cunningham's publication of the details of a seal; this was followed by Marshall's explorations. Sir John Marshall, Rai Bahadur Daya Ram Sahni, and Madho Swarup Vats were the main investigators of Harappa; at Mohenjodaro, it was three more proud Pakistanis, Rakhal Das Banerjea, McCay and Marshall again.
It is surprising to see some wallowing in emotion about these sites when neither they nor their ancestors remember having built them, or live in memory of having them in the vicinity, or re-discovered the sites for present-day posterity. Does proximity mean possession? It does. Does proximity mean affiliation, or cultural descent? It does not. Your logic is faulty there; just because Pakistanis live there now, and these sites largely fall into the territory of Pakistan does not mean that the present-day people of present-day Pakistan have anything to do with them, besides having pointed them out to engineers who made railway ballast of them.
As far as Indian civilisation is concerned, I suggest you invest in a cheap,elementary history text, or as an alternative, buy Basham's the Wonder that was India, and read it through. Your ideas of Indian civilisation will be sharply corrected. There is no lack of history or culture that drives Indians to discuss this and other topics; while you have this one achievement located in your lands with no other connection to you, Indians have the results of the culture in 8 other river valleys to explore and to ponder over, including cultures which date back continuously to periods long before present-day Pakistan made any effort at developing either urban or rural culture. A preliminary study of the Kaveri delta settlements and the Sangam period in Tamil, or the Brahmaputra valley and its adjoining Gangetic portions will illuminate this statement for you.
You mention that the 'Melhulans' (sic - at least try to copy and paste, instead of typing these strange names in and making silly mistakes) were the Indus people who lived on the River Indus, and that they were the early ancestors of todays' Pakistanis, with 98% congruence with the DNA of present-day residents of Pakistan. This is indeed surprising to read: all studies on DNA have indicated that the Punjabi, Sindhi population have 98% congruence among themselves and with the rest of south Asians, including inhabitants of Bangladesh, but that Pakhtuns have little or no congruence at all. You might like to ponder over the legal maxim that there are two kinds of lies, suppressio veri and suggestio falsi. The people of the Indus, according to the findings of the team led by Cavalli-Sforza, are identical with the people of the Ganges.
This desperation can only be attributed to the failure in sequence of the Two Nation Theory, which was blown up by the secession of Bangladesh, and of the secular democracy for Muslims Theory, Jinnah's ideal, which was sabotaged and systematically dismantled by the Objectives Resolution, then by the declaration of the Islamic Republic and finally by the adoption of Sharia courts. It was only after these tragic occurrences that Aitzaz Ahsan and his followers have started this farcical business of the Pakistani heritage of 5,000 years, the exact Pakistani counterpart of the BJP and Sangh Parivar's insistence that all human growth started from within India. You are to be congratulated in finding good company to keep.
As far as liberal Indians are concerned, have no fears; our attitude towards these melodramatic recreations of history is one of amused disdain.
Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner
it is stupid to say that history of Pakistan started with IVC...it may not seem stupid to your but yes it is...
