You write very well. This piece of propaganda is extremely well done.
It is regrettable that you start with the proposition that it is impossible to have a debate with "bharati" people (incidentally, the use of that term is considered as derogatory as the use of the term P***, so please desist from using it in future), without considering that in a debate, while two opposite opinions may be held initially, the premise of the debate must be that facts and their rational analysis will finally prevail, not a dogged insistence on having one's own opinion upheld. Unless you free yourselves to consider the facts, you will find yourselves continuing to discuss this issue till infinity.
I had no desire to inflame Indians by calling them bhartis. Bharat is an official name of your country, In Urdu we refer to India as Bharat. I have serious reservation over Bharat naming itself India. The name India was shared between both Pakistan and Bharat. Originally it was applied only to Indus valley which Alexander invaded but later it was applied to whole south Asia. When Pakistan gained its independence from Britons it might have been logical for the new state in the Indus valley to take the name India or even Industan as the valley was called by English sailors but our founder rejected this name given by invaders. We have our history to be proud of and do not need to take the name/identity from invaders. Since you Indians had no history Nehru was right to steal the name India from Indus valley Pakistanis to claim as theirs. You people have nothing to be proud of, it is Pakistanis who should be that Indian ocean is named after their river Indus. You people are known throughout the world due to the achievements of Pakistani ancestors. Jinnah was furious when Bharat chose the name India and felt bharat had hijacked Pakistan’s millennia of civilization.
Pakistani press in its early years used to call India "Bharat" and referred to Indians as "Bharatis.", obviously Pakistani civilian leadership of that time were against this bharati fraud. Even president Eisenhower once referred to Nehru as the "Prime Minister of 'Bharat. It was only after military coup when the loser general Ayub Khan came to power that attitude of the Pakistani press changed bharat became India. Some self defeatist Pakistanis didn’t care about losing their identity to Bhartis but many did care. Pakistan is a child of Indus and I always try my best to not call Bharat as India, since this our heritage and you people have no history this is why you are trying to rob us of our history. I am not the only person who calls Indian bharti there are thousands out there. Why not call yourself bhartis what wrong with this name Bharata was a legendary Hindu hero. You people are obviously suffering from identity crises.
First, Indus Valley Civilisation remains and settlements have been found as far north as Shortugai, on the banks of the Oxus. Try to remember that the term Indus Valley Civilisation was given to the culture in question due to the major settlements initially discovered on the banks of the Indus, and due to no other reason. It is surprising to see a label being used to justify a cultural coherence with present-day inhabitants, when there is no linkage between that culture and any that occurred ever since.
Yes I know Indus valley civilization extended into Iran and Afghanistan. The Indus Valley Civilization existed on the banks of the Indus same as Pakistan today, Egyptian Civilization existed on the banks of the Nile, Chinese civilization existed Huang He (Yellow River) valley and Mesopotamia grew on Tigris-Euphrates River Valley. The first great civilizations grew up along rivers. Bharat had many rivers but it didn’t grow any civilization, why? Because your ancestors were still in hunter gathering stage, Most of Bharat was a jungle at that time.
It is surprising to see some wallowing in emotion about these sites when neither they nor their ancestors remember having built them, or live in memory of having them in the vicinity, or re-discovered the sites for present-day posterity. Does proximity mean possession? It does. Does proximity mean affiliation, or cultural descent? It does not. Your logic is faulty there; just because Pakistanis live there now, and these sites largely fall into the territory of Pakistan does not mean that the present-day people of present-day Pakistan have anything to do with them, besides having pointed them out to engineers who made railway ballast of them.
Your statement that Pakistanis are the latest avatars of the Indus Valley Civilisation is regrettably untrue; there was no inheritance of this unique culture that can be detected in subsequent years. If they were the latest avatars, Pakistanis would know the language that was spoken there, the script that was used there, and would have had a continuous record of living in those urbanisations from then till now. That is not the case. At best, some of the people of those cities remain in the population around the cities, but have completely forgotten everything to do with those cities.
So according to you Pakistanis are not following the culture of Indus valley people so they should be stripped of their heritage. If that is the case the three oldest civilizations Mesopotamian, Egyptians and the Chinese can also not be claimed by their present day descendent since their civilizations haven't continued as such til present day.
Let me enlighten you a bit more the earliest civilizations used picture-writing- representing both sounds and objects to the reader. And no country today is using pictographic script to communicate and according to you all modern day Chinese, Egyptians, Iraqis and Pakistanis are not the inheritors of their past civilization.
Something, perhaps, like present-day Turks claiming the credit for the founding and administration of Troy.
Now why can’t the Turks claim the credit for the founding and administration of Troy? The people of troy that were the Trojans didn’t just evaporate in the air their descended must still be living over there and can rightly claim it as their own.
Once again, at slower speed: at that time, there was no Pakistan, which is a modern concept. There could not have been a coherent culture shared by the present geographical extent of Pakistan, and the IVC was not such a culture; it extended well beyond the boundaries of present-day Pakistan, for starters, so the opening premise is false.
Bharat is a modern day concept, some say it was an accident, others say it was a gift given to their Brahmin bootlickers who served Sahib very well for 200 years, So the brits rewarded them with this artificial created country called Bharat, for starters, just remember bharat is not a nation state it is a subcontinent waiting to explode.
Pakistan is a reality for thousands of years, there is nothing that connects the 1.2 billion Indians except that they were the former slaves of Sahib (Brits).
On the other hand, Pakistanis have much more commonality with each other. All Pakistanis (Pashtuns, Punjabis, Baluchis, Kashmiris, Seraikis, and Sindhis) are:
1. Geographically based around Indus River and its tributaries
2. Linguistically Indo-Iranian
3. Common Indus valley/Mehrgarh/Vedic heritage
4. Mostly racially Caucasoid mixed with others
5. Culturally a blend of Muslim and Indo-Iranian roots
6. Followers of the religion of Islam
There is no question of this, or that, or the culture being Hindu. Hindu was a religious label, not a cultural one. The term Hindu covered a multitude of people, from nine river valleys:
The Gangetic Valley;
The Brahmaputra valley;
The Mahanadi valley;
The Krishna valley;
The Godavari valley;
the Kaveri valley;
the Tungabhadra basin;
the Narmada valley;
the Indus valley.
Each had its own distinct culture, each shared traits of the culture of the others. Religion, language and literature were unifying factors.
I was waiting for this, Now Indus valley has nothing to do with Hinduism, Hinduism is largely a fiction”, an 18th and 19th century creation of the colonial Europeans and their Sanskrit learned Brahmin intermediaries in India. “Together, the British scholars and the Brahmin interpreters came up with a canon of sorts, mostly Brahmanical literature and ideology, which they began to identify with a single Hindu religion”.
Hinduism is not the only religion which Britons created, they also created a religion called Ahmadiyya. Before I am called a bigot or whatever I want to make it clear I respect every religion of the world but I am just not going to sit back and let you distort history. Hinduism became a world religion in 19th century before it was a collection of thousands different cults which brits grouped them together. Again Hinduism is a term created in 1830’s and Santana dharma was a term created by Brahmins in a desperate attempt to replace the word Hindu given by Muslim invaders. No foreign text mentions anything about Santana dharma (at least I didn’t find one if you have some please provide the sources).
Bharati people shared nothing before Muslims came to subcontinent; There was no shared religion, culture or whatever you want to prove.
They even had to be discovered by aliens. If you are not aware, two railway engineers, the Brunton brothers, stripped the Mohenjodaro site of bricks for ballast; the ballasted tracks are still there for proud Pakistanis to see on the track running from Karachi to Lahore. So much for your being the avatar of the original inhabitants of those cities. Formal investigations started with Cunningham's publication of the details of a seal; this was followed by Marshall's explorations. Sir John Marshall, Rai Bahadur Daya Ram Sahni, and Madho Swarup Vats were the main investigators of Harappa; at Mohenjodaro, it was three more proud Pakistanis, Rakhal Das Banerjea, McCay and Marshall again.
Pakistanis are still the avatar of the original inhabitants of those cities, so what if we don’t speak their language or follow their culture but we still follow many of their works. Indus valley people were farmers, many Pakistanis are farmers
They grew crops such as wheat, barley and dates Pakistanis still do that.
They were merchants many Pakistanis are merchants and traders
They used to trade cotton, grain, metal Pakistanis still do that
They domesticated cattles and buffaloes we still do that
Pakistan is a rebirth of Indus valley civilization
As far as Indian civilisation is concerned, I suggest you invest in a cheap,elementary history text, or as an alternative, buy Basham's the Wonder that was India, and read it through. Your ideas of Indian civilisation will be sharply corrected. There is no lack of history or culture that drives Indians to discuss this and other topics; while you have this one achievement located in your lands with no other connection to you, Indians have the results of the culture in 8 other river valleys to explore and to ponder over, including cultures which date back continuously to periods long before present-day Pakistan made any effort at developing either urban or rural culture. A preliminary study of the Kaveri delta settlements and the Sangam period in Tamil, or the Brahmaputra valley and its adjoining Gangetic portions will illuminate this statement for you.
No interest in history of bharat since they have nothing of their own to proud of all they can do can do is pilfer Pakistani and Muslim achievements like taj mahal, red fort, shalwar kamiz, palau, kebabs, Sherwani. Why don’t you take pride in claiming your own so-called Hindu civilization rather than stealing the history of your neighbouring countries?
You mention that the 'Melhulans' (sic - at least try to copy and paste, instead of typing these strange names in and making silly mistakes) were
I don’t need to learn history of my country from internet historians, I have my sources which is way better than yours, Melluha was an ancient name of Pakistan given by Mesopotamians.
the Indus people who lived on the River Indus, and that they were the early ancestors of today’s' Pakistanis, with 98% congruence with the DNA of present-day residents of Pakistan. This is indeed surprising to read: all studies on DNA have indicated that the Punjabi, Sindhi population have 98% congruence among themselves and with the rest of south Asians, including inhabitants of Bangladesh, but that Pakhtuns have little or no congruence at all. You might like to ponder over the legal maxim that there are two kinds of lies, suppressio veri and suggestio falsi. The people of the Indus, according to the findings of the team led by Cavalli-Sforza, are identical with the people of the Ganges.
Oh yes, we Punjabis sindis all are Indian and Bengali looking and this is the reason the Punjabi army of Pakistan annihilated 3 million inferior dark Bengalis. I am really not sure what makes you Indian feel that Pakistan look at you Indians as somewhat superior to Bengalis, Pakistani army do not distinguish anything between bharti and Bengali people, you are all the same people and when the time comes history shall be repeated again but this times there will be more than 3 million people.
You (bhartis & Bengalis) all belong to the same stock, by lumping sindis and pak Punjabis and Indians togethers you are making fun of yourself. Half of pak Punjabi population claim ancestry from central Asia such as arrain, mughals, syeds, qureshis, gakkhars, awans and qutb shais and many more. Only jats and rajputs can be related to Indians but this again is disputed. Rajputs are said to be descendent of white huns from central asia, Bhartis rajputs look like African black and are most likely wannabe rajputs. Sindhis are mixed with balochis except the interior sindhis
I really don’t understand why you bharti people can’t accept that you are Dravidians what’s wrong with it, I am not saying pak Punjabis are not Dravidians they are but not all of them claim south Asian ancestry. And if you can share us the link which says Punjabis and sindis are closer to India that would be nice.
There are more than 2 lies and I can also debate on that but since you are trying to show off I would stop right there. If the Indus people and Ganga people are same then Nigerians and Algerians are also same
By Indus people I mean, pushtun, baloch, Punjabi, wakhi, Kashmiri, Sindhi
This desperation can only be attributed to the failure in sequence of the Two Nation Theory, which was blown up by the secession of Bangladesh, and of the secular democracy for Muslims Theory, Jinnah's ideal, which was sabotaged and systematically dismantled by the Objectives Resolution, then by the declaration of the Islamic Republic and finally by the adoption of Sharia courts. It was only after these tragic occurrences that Aitzaz Ahsan and his followers have started this farcical business of the Pakistani heritage of 5,000 years, the exact Pakistani counterpart of the BJP and Sangh Parivar's insistence that all human growth started from within India. You are to be congratulated in finding good company to keep.
Again wrong, Pakistan was not created, Pakistan just got its independence on nationalism, you can call it Muslim nationalism but we Pakistanis call it ethno-cultural nationalism. Muhammad Iqbal and Rehmat Ali proposed creation of Pakistan as only a federation of Punjab, NWFP, Sindh, Baluchistan, and Kashmir... based on their common history, geography, culture, language, race, defence, religion, and economics.
Pakistan was created to preserve its unique culture so not to be polluted by Hindus
Bharat was created when the British Parliament passed the Indian Independence Act on July 18, 1947. The Act created one dominion, Indian Union and Pakistan returned back to its natural state.
As far as liberal Indians are concerned, have no fears; our attitude towards these melodramatic recreations of history is one of amused disdain. Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner
Ok, No one has anything to fear from Indians since it is an artificial country with no history, no culture and no civilization. The propaganda and lies spread by bharati media and textbooks have deluded bharti and they cannot fathom the fact that their country is mere 60 years old and it is challenging a country which has a 5000 year old civilization, Pakistan will remain as it always has but looking at bharat history it will be a miracle if it survives another decade
