Ancient History not Appreciated by Pakistanis?

[Flintlock]

roadrunner,

How you call yourselves the descendants of the IVC people? This land is invaded by lots of army. Your ancestors could be a migrant from present day Iran, Iraq or even further away. Even your ancestors might be the cause for the destruction of the IVC.

Wouldn't accepting this as your ancient civilization negate the current theory of "Ancient people of this land lived in a dark age and Islam brought light to this land"?

Shiva, the current theories suggest that the Indus people gradually migrated eastwards and lost their urban culture with time, while others stayed behind, again, becoming more rural with time.

The Aryan Invasion theory has been discarded by most archaeologists.

Perhaps there was a peaceful influx of a new phenotype from the west, but no outright war.

The general consensus is that these cities were abandoned due to change in the flow of rivers and gradual climate changes.

It does however, imply that the "pagans" had an extremely advanced culture and technology, which goes against the feeling that Islam is superior to all other beliefs. This is perhaps why Pakistanis are so reluctant to acknowledge this history.

 

[roadrunner]

My God, the sophistication of these people is amazing!!

Yes, as is your wilingness to believe an Indian archaeologist, writing for an Indian journal.

"Archaeologists can't stop talking about the site. R S Bisht, director (Explorations & Excavations),

Perhaps he should have inserted Indian before this phrase.

ASI says: "Even after 5,000 years the 32 steps that lead to the reservoir still retain their geometrical balance."

No surprise there if it was made yesterday then. Now if a neutral archaeologist were to confirm this using samples, and radiocarbon dating, I might start believing it. But of course, India is truly a miraculous country, so we should believe miracles happen there !

 

[roadrunner]

roadrunner,

How you call yourselves the descendants of the IVC people? This land is invaded by lots of army. Your ancestors could be a migrant from present day Iran, Iraq or even further away. Even your ancestors might be the cause for the destruction of the IVC.

Dude, populations do not change in the way you're saying. You can look into this further by learning population genetics. Unless you can advocate genocide, base populations remain the same throughout history. Doesn't matter about migration here and there. There was no major Arab invasion into Pakistan (or India) Invasion here defined as settlement of Arabs into Pakistan). There was no major Persian invasion (same definition). This has all been PROVEN genetically.

Wouldn't accepting this as your ancient civilization negate the current theory of "Ancient people of this land lived in a dark age and Islam brought light to this land"?

Dude, please. I'm proud of being a Muslim, I'm proud of my non Muslim ancestors (who were not Hindu), it doesnt matter what religion they were to me. Take your nonsense elsewhere, Muslims for the most part are not what is portrayed by the likes of my favourite Hindutva fanatics like Bal Thakeree and Atal Vajpayee, or your newspapers like rediff.

 

[Flintlock]

Perhaps you should have highlighted that it says "stone metropolis" and all the other IVC sites used brick? Why do you think that was?

Dunno...
.why did they worship peepal leaves? Redundant question......

Its called regional variation. No harappan site is identical. They were separated by more than 500 kms from other major sites.

You think that everything would be identical over such a huge distance?

Even today Amritsar and Lahore are vastly different, with motor cars to carry new ideas across.

If Dholivira was this great city, then let neutral archaeologists excavate some data from it, instead of only letting them do renderings or inviting them to conferences to make the Indian conclusions more valid. The Archaeological Survey of India (since partition) has become under the hand of the Indian government, in which Hindutva have been in charge, and still have a strong presence in political circles.

Lol.....its not like this site is fenced off to visitors!!

Anyone who wants to take a look can do so!!

The ASI is a govt. body, not a Hindutva body. Don't equate the two.

The articles merely describe the findings, and don't mention anything about Hinduism.

 

[Titanium]

It does however, imply that the "pagans" had an extremely advanced culture and technology, which goes against the feeling that Islam is superior to all other beliefs.

How is that related.... advanced culture and technology of pagans and the belief in Islam?? They are two different things to me... take of your colour glasses before talking history.

If it is just for kicks ..... then be my guest and post all that you want.

 

[Flintlock]

Dude, please. I'm proud of being a Muslim, I'm proud of my non Muslim ancestors (who were not Hindu), it doesnt matter what religion they were to me. Take your nonsense elsewhere, Muslims for the most part are not what is portrayed by the likes of my favourite Hindutva fanatics like Bal Thakeree and Atal Vajpayee, or your newspapers like rediff.

Then why is this history being ignored in Pakistani textbooks?

Why doesn't Saudi Arabia allow excavations?

 

[Flintlock]

How is that related.... advanced culture and technology of pagans and the belief in Islam?? They are two different things to me... take of your colour glasses before talking history.

If it is just for kicks ..... then be my guest and post all that you want.

I am merely making an observation.

This is not my view, it is the view of many muslims.

Of course, you might not agree with them, but some people do.

Those people are stopping Pakistanis from realizing the true worth of these findings.

 

[Shivakumar]

Dude, populations do not change in the way you're saying. You can look into this further by learning population genetics. Unless you can advocate genocide, base populations remain the same throughout history. Doesn't matter about migration here and there. There was no major Arab invasion into Pakistan (or India) Invasion here defined as settlement of Arabs into Pakistan). There was no major Persian invasion (same definition). This has all been PROVEN genetically.

In more than 1000 years anything could happen. The entire population may be wiped out or migrated to other places. The landscapes might be changed. Give me a link to your genetic proof.

Dude, please. I'm proud of being a Muslim, I'm proud of my non Muslim ancestors (who were not Hindu)

Because they were not Hindus? What a religious tolerance!!!!

Take your nonsense elsewhere, Muslims for the most part are not what is portrayed by the likes of my favourite Hindutva fanatics like Bal Thakeree and Atal Vajpayee, or your newspapers like rediff.

Why do blame us? You school text books support this theory. Instead of blaming us, ask your government to change it.

 

[UnitedPak]

Why are you quoting what the Pakistani gov says? Its hypocritical when you refuse to accept the two nation theory which shows that Pakistan was created with Bin Qasims invasion of Sindh.

There is no evidence for the IVC people moving east. According to white nationalists, the IVC people were white, and moved to Europe. Should we believe that too?
Every nationalist group have their own "moving "theory regarding these civilisations, and India is considered no different.

The IVC people most likely stayed exactly where they stayed for 1000s of years.

 

[Flintlock]

Why are you quoting what the Pakistani gov says? Its hypocritical when you refuse to accept the two nation theory which shows that Pakistan was created with Bin Qasims invasion of Sindh.

There is no evidence for the IVC people moving east. According to white nationalists, the IVC people were white, and moved to Europe. Should we believe that too?
Every nationalist group have their own "moving "theory regarding these civilisations, and India is considered no different.

The IVC people most likely stayed exactly where they stayed for 1000s of years.

We are not discussing the Two-Nation theory, so I won't reply to that.

Thist isn't an Indian theory, but is espoused by many prominent writers on the subject. Those writers of course have well-thought out reasoning for such a stand.

I have never heard of this white nationalist theory. I'm sure no credible researcher has ever supported it.

 

[roadrunner]

Then why is this history being ignored in Pakistani textbooks?

Why doesn't Saudi Arabia allow excavations?

Quite honestly, I've had enough of you for now. You've obviously nothing better to do than to try and be elusive, responding to questions requiring facts with answers that don't answer the questions. In an exam you'd score zero marks.

Here is your answer to "why doesn't Saudi Arabi allow excavations?"

"n the field of archaeology, a Saudi-French team led by Professor Jean-Marie Dentzer, member of the French Academie des inscriptions et belles lettres, and Dr. Laila Nehme, an archaeologist at the French National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS), have been working for three years on the Madain Saleh Nabatean site in the northwestern part of Saudi Arabia, in cooperation with the Directorate of Antiquities and Museums.
Louvre To Exhibit Islamic Artifacts In Riyadh Museum - Saudi Arabia Information

That is why the Saudi sites have creditability. That is why the Pakistani sites have creditability. I've asked for the name of one non Indian eminient archaeologist or reference to a neutral team that how worked on the major Indian sites. Not a single one you have managed to quote. NOT ONE.

Until you are able to answer my questions in this way with names of archaeologists or reputed references to non Indian teams, or say something useful, substantial, informative, or I feel like wasting more time, I'm just going to ignore what you write.

 

[Titanium]

I am merely making an observation.

This is not my view, it is the view of many muslims.
Of course, you might not agree with them, but some people do.

Those people are stopping Pakistanis from realizing the true worth of these findings.

How did you know that? care to elaborate?

You did some study? or it is one of those know it all, they are like that only thing. It is called stereotype, racism, hatered, accusing a community without understanding.

Be careful what you post and do not generalise.

 

[Flintlock]

I am referring to the use of stone and more primitive building materials/techniques, vs the brick etc. used by the people of the IVC as being evidence of no migration to the south.

You can cut and paste this onto the IVC thread though, so the discussion can continue there.

Well there seems to be a steady decline of harappan culture as the culture of the invaders was spread among the original harappan inhabitants.

Here is another (Extremely tantalizing) quote from Witzel (2006):


It also is clear that the remnant agricultural people of the Indus
moved upstream (apparently for want of sufficient water in some areas
and as to exploit monsoon rains not found in the Indus area), to
Haryana/Delhi and eastwards to Saurastra and Gujarat. Indeed, we find
non-Aryan (prefixing, Para-Munda) river/place names concentrated in the
Haryana (Kuruksetra) area (Witzel 1999), and Dravidian ones in Gujarat
(Southworth 2005), while most of the NW and then the western Gangetic
valley has been overlaid by IA names.

This should explain some of RR's doubts about the movements of the Aryans and Indegenous people within the subcontinent.

 

[roadrunner]

Well there seems to be a steady decline of harappan culture as the culture of the invaders was spread among the original harappan inhabitants.

Here is another (Extremely tantalizing) quote from Witzel (2006):


It also is clear that the remnant agricultural people of the Indus
moved upstream (apparently for want of sufficient water in some areas
and as to exploit monsoon rains not found in the Indus area), to
Haryana/Delhi and eastwards to Saurastra and Gujarat. Indeed, we find
non-Aryan (prefixing, Para-Munda) river/place names concentrated in the
Haryana (Kuruksetra) area (Witzel 1999), and Dravidian ones in Gujarat
(Southworth 2005), while most of the NW and then the western Gangetic
valley has been overlaid by IA names.

This should explain some of RR's doubts about the movements of the Aryans and Indegenous people within the subcontinent.

It's not tantalizing. As I explained before, skull measurements have proved the IVC was not Dravidian.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^

If what RR says is true, then skeletal similarities would trump any "theories" of migration wouldn't they? I mean we can postulate all we want over this or that being similar, but if there is a distinct difference between the skeletal remains of the IVC people, and those of the Dravidians in South India, then that would simply indicate that a very small or "limited migration", as was suggested in one of your quotes, was what occurred, and the genetic makeup of the limited migrants got swallowed up by the majority of the Dravidians.