Analysts want US policy shift on Pakistan

[IceCold]

" i would definately dis-engage in most matters from the US."

What would those be? What areas would you not dis-engage from America? Thanks!

This is irrelavent as i am not the PM of pakistan or for that matter the president and there isnt any chance for me to be one in the near future. However the one thing that pricks me is how can US be such a champion of promoting democracy in pakistan or for that matter in the world while on the other hand it supports dictatorship in egypt, does not accept an elected government of hisbullah in palestine. This is hipocrasy at its best.

The only thing we need to increase our cooperation is to eliminate terrorism and the rest should be left on the respected country herself to take care of specially about who will rule the country for the next five years.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You are right Kent and i am completely in favour of this concept but the problem is that no one is willing to trust each other since one feels that the nature of other's is to betray always.

As far as the Indian realization is concerned i can only say that if all the descriminations faced by Minorities are dealt with without being impartial then only India can claim what you mentioned. Correct that it is prospering in every aspect of Economic Growth but Social Growth is by far lacking in most of India.

That may be true.

I am sure that India should be equally worried about the fairness of treatment towards the Shias, Ahmediayyas (who are as Moslem as the other man Jack!), Christians etc of Pakistan and those poor blokes of Red Mosque!

Friend, each country has it own problems, with it unique nuances that others cannot fathom, that impacts on its governance.

It is time to allow them to solve it rather than act sanctimonious!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

This is irrelavent as i am not the PM of pakistan or for that matter the president and there isnt any chance for me to be one in the near future. However the one thing that pricks me is how can US be such a champion of promoting democracy in pakistan or for that matter in the world while on the other hand it supports dictatorship in egypt, does not accept an elected government of hisbullah in palestine. This is hipocrasy at its best.

The only thing we need to increase our cooperation is to eliminate terrorism and the rest should be left on the respected country herself to take care of specially about who will rule the country for the next five years.

Indeed you are not the PM and you may never be one. But that if not material.

Why the US supports rather unusual regime is because there is something called geo strategy and geo politics.

Hypocrisy but it is realpolitik.

 

[IceCold]

Why the US supports rather unusual regime is because there is something called geo strategy and geo politics.

So they find us only in the whole world for their version of democracy to experiment on.
They need to realize the fact that pakistan isnt the same they though of it to be during the era of the soviet union and surely we have our own interests. If the medeling isnt stopped it might turn out to have some serious repercussions.

 

[IndianMunda]

Honestly I really do appreciate your comments on India helping Pakistan out. But you see each country is different and thus should develop a type of government which most suits the population. Now the Pakistani Minister was referring to the stability of Indian politics, which unfortunately our politics lack. It is true India indeed has many things Pakistan can adopt, but I think we should have things which are jsut for us. But nonetheless thank you for your response and insight.

I fully appriciate and respect your point of view. I only suggested this because I feel there are many things common between us.

 

[IndianMunda]

LOL Munda. Keep your version of democracy. When you have Dalits freely voting and occupying the Parliament as they should, then Pakistan can learn from your democracy.

Dear, thanks for your suggestions. I think you are very true that cast system must be fully diluted. Though I want to add some points here. India is doing every thing to pull dalits up in economic and political ladder and I can claim politically they are coming up very fast (google it). Government is providing all support to them in education, jobs like free and compulsory education, free food in school, reservation in education (all level), jobs, promotions, these days there is one debate going on to give reservation in private sector for dalits. I am very hopeful that in coming years we would able to abolish the caste system and create an uniform flat society.

Any way this is off topic, I just gave these info because I feel you need this. Probably you can open another thread for this topic and I will be happy to contribute.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The problem between Pakistan and India is primarily religion, then the disputes which arose due to Independence.

How is the problem between India and Pakistan primarily religion?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Since Pakistan was made in the name of Islam! ...

A no trust situation between Hindu and Muslim exists from Centuries and that is what has created these issues where one thinks that he is right and the other thinks that he is right. I donot wish to say who is right but i onlt want to say that when both are feeling that they are right they you have conflicts like between Paksitan and India.

Since i posted that Problem between Pakistan and India is religion and after that Conflicts. I meant the thinking effect the Hindus and Muslims have in this region from last centuries.

Pakistan was created to safeguard the interests of Muslims - as a Muslim state, not an Islamic state. See Jinnah's views on this, and I would argue that implies Pakistan was created in the name of Muslims, not in the name of Islam. And yes, the lack of trust/fear between the two communities (or the leadership of the two communities) may have resulted in the demand for a seperate nation - but how does that translate to the problems between India and Pakistan post independence being religion?

Territorial Disputes, a tussle over competing interests, a suspicion of the others intentions towards ones sovereignty etc. I can see - but how does religion fit in? Only if you claim that India is undermining Pakistan just because it is a Muslim state. And I would argue that the people in India who do harbor intentions to "undermine" Pakistan only do so because they consider the territory of Pakistan as rightfully being part of India, not because Pakistan is primarily Muslim.

Similarly, Pakistan's interest in India isn't because it is "Hindu", but because we have territorial disputes with it, and we may not believe that India has completely accepted our existence which results in us maintaining a strong military and pursuing various other policies - I don't see religion as being an overwhelming factor in any of this.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Pakistan was created to safeguard the interests of Muslims - as a Muslim state, not an Islamic state. See Jinnah's views on this, and I would argue that implies Pakistan was created in the name of Muslims, not in the name of Islam. And yes, the lack of trust/fear between the two communities (or the leadership of the two communities) may have resulted in the demand for a seperate nation - but how does that translate to the problems between India and Pakistan post independence being religion?

Agno, Islamic State or a state for Muslims of Subcontinent means the same to me!...Muslims correspond to Islam.... Don't you agree?

As for the Problems, the answer is simple, the problem is trust and history of India which makes it difficult for Muslims and for Hindus to trust each other. Meaning the mentality is set because of the difference in religion. Further this mentality created conflicts. Hence, India and Pakistan have basic difference---> religion and then Conflicts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agno, Islamic State or a state for Muslims of Subcontinent means the same to me!...Muslims correspond to Islam.... Don't you agree?

An Islamic State implies that religion will be a part of Government, that the State's policies are influenced by religion and/or based on religious edicts/interpretations - while a Muslim state simply means that the State has a population that is a Muslim majority, but the policies of the State, its laws etc. are not necessarily influenced by religion. Currently Pakistan could be said to be neither (Islamic nor Secular), though a bit skewed towards an "Islamic State", and of course it is a "Muslim State".

As for the Problems, the answer is simple, the problem is trust and history of India which makes it difficult for Muslims and for Hindus to trust each other. Meaning the mentality is set because of the difference in religion. Further this mentality created conflicts. Hence, India and Pakistan have basic difference---> religion and then Conflicts.

What exactly is "Hindu-Muslim mentality"? And I am not sure what the "Hindu - Muslim mentality" has to do with this - it's a question of competing interests and a history that does not encourage trust. Are we trying to impose Islam in India, or elsewhere in the world? Is India trying to impose Hinduism in Pakistan or elsewhere in the world? If you looked at the Cold war -at least there you could point at two nations trying to impose their competing ideologies on themselves and the rest of the world, and in the process developing this tremendous animosity - but none of that applies to India and Pakistan. We are at odds primarily because of territory - nothing else. Even if you accept the argument that India wants to absorb Pakistan, it is an impulse driven by territorial expansionism - not religious ideology.

 

[khanz]

LOL Munda. Keep your version of democracy. When you have Dalits freely voting and occupying the Parliament as they should, then Pakistan can learn from your democracy.

he is only trying to help

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Rather well said, Agnostic.

"Moslem", in the context of independence, was taken as a "community" or a "group " and not as "religion".

 

[blain2]

Pakistan was created to safeguard the interests of Muslims - as a Muslim state, not an Islamic state. See Jinnah's views on this, and I would argue that implies Pakistan was created in the name of Muslims, not in the name of Islam. And yes, the lack of trust/fear between the two communities (or the leadership of the two communities) may have resulted in the demand for a seperate nation - but how does that translate to the problems between India and Pakistan post independence being religion?

Territorial Disputes, a tussle over competing interests, a suspicion of the others intentions towards ones sovereignty etc. I can see - but how does religion fit in? Only if you claim that India is undermining Pakistan just because it is a Muslim state. And I would argue that the people in India who do harbor intentions to "undermine" Pakistan only do so because they consider the territory of Pakistan as rightfully being part of India, not because Pakistan is primarily Muslim.

Similarly, Pakistan's interest in India isn't because it is "Hindu", but because we have territorial disputes with it, and we may not believe that India has completely accepted our existence which results in us maintaining a strong military and pursuing various other policies - I don't see religion as being an overwhelming factor in any of this.

AM,

Right on the dot. Territorials disputes are the primary reason for the problem between us and the Indians. If religion were the root cause then we would have had issues with many others including the Chinese, Russians and everybody else under the sun and not Muslim.

Bringing religion into this issue actually makes the situation more convoluted.

Resolve the territorial disputes and move on. Bringing religion into this problem is like overlaying another problem on top of the existing distrust due to territorial disputes.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

P2BP:

We in Pakistan donot burn Mandirs, all Hindus are allowed to follow their religion as per the code of Islam.


Since they still continue to show their hatred by Burning Mosques and making Mandirs after demolishing mosques and lot of other discriminations faced by Muslims. How can we trust Hindus!

May be You can !

Perhaps we don't burn Mandir's - but we have no problems blowing/shooting up Imambargah's and Mosques and treating Ahmadi's as second class citizens. So a case of the "pot calling the kettle black" I would say.

I am not sure what the treatment of minorities in India has to do with Pakistan's policies. Pakistan and Pakistanis are not the guardians of Muslims the world over - even if what you allege about mistreatment of minorities in India were true, how does our being in conflict with India help the issue? Are you suggesting that the Kashmir, Sir Creek, Siachin, Kargil, East Pakistan issues. all exist because India "mistreats" its minorities? Will all these issues be resolved if India suddenly stops "discriminating"?

They won't - because these issues have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with territory.

 

[Mustapha]

Assalamulaykum,

Well Pakistan should be an Islamic state. Why do we always have to refer or go to Mr. Jinnah's way of thinking. Sure, "if" Pakistan was a Muslim's state; I don't see why it can't become an Islamic, which it should become.

Ofcourse Muslims were united aganist aganist Trangressors. How do you think on one side they went all the way to Tours and then on the other side of Europe they were at the gates of Vienna. Hence, Salim, ofcourse the Muslim world is not united today however saying that the Muslims were once united is not an opinion but a fact.


Gaining territory cannot always be precieved as "territorial expansion or imperialism."
There are many Muslims today, who want a Caliphate. For example in doing so, people say the perfect place would be uniting all of central asia into one large Turkestani Caliphate. I don't see anything wrong with it, but actually, mashallah its a brilliant idea!

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The main point:

Well, American politicans (and those who are ignorant) need to realize our culture and our way of thinking. They cannot apply their reasoning or way of government to the whole world. They also need to realize they cannot reshape the world to their liking.