ANALYSIS: PAKISTAN’S VT4 ACQUISITION

[PanzerKiel]

Yes, a war where drones did not exist and the Iraqi Army was using the 60's Soviet tactics of pushing with armour without infantry support. The Syrian Army tried it early in the war but failed massively. As for Turkey, their MBTs hasn't done much since Al-Bab where the majority losses of armour were.


The speed of the ATGM doesn't matter much when it is faster than the tank it is targeting.

A tank can't fire "3 rounds", it needs time to load the next round.

ATGM are also hard to find compared to tanks. Good example would be Israel and Hezbollah war where Hezbollah did not field a single armour.

As for Syria, the Syrian regime had more tanks than Pakistan. In fact, even if you go back to the 80's, Israel wouldn't field its tank fleet in fear of falling prey to Syrian Gazelle helicopters. And guess what the helicopters used, ATGM

Also, on a personal note.....it is unfair, and can be dangerous, to adopt a doctrine, or a technique, which may have proved good in some other country, under different conditions, in different terrrain.

In urban areas, where tanks dont have a chance to survive, all sort of ATGMs and anti-tank weapons have good potential......so if Pakistan is expecting to fight enemy tanks in its cities, then yes, ATGMs and RPGs are good to have....

Hezbollah is not a regular army organization nor it adopts regular army tactics.....which is its main strength, you bring Hezbollah in Sinai desert, give them a month to prep their defences, and then ask IDF to take them on....the results will be quiet different to what happened in 2006....

That 80s example which you gave, that was one of the first instances in which IDF had to face ATGM equipped helis, for which they hadnt thought of any anti-dote.....but then they learnt....after that, till today, no one can imagine to fly helis with such impunity without achieving air superiority in that specific sector.....SHORADs wont let the helis come near....

 

[Armchair]

Also, on a personal note.....it is unfair, and can be dangerous, to adopt a doctrine, or a technique, which may have proved good in some other country, under different conditions, in different terrrain.

In urban areas, where tanks dont have a chance to survive, all sort of ATGMs and anti-tank weapons have good potential......so if Pakistan is expecting to fight enemy tanks in its cities, then yes, ATGMs and RPGs are good to have....

Hezbollah is not a regular army organization nor it adopts regular army tactics.....which is its main strength, you bring Hezbollah in Sinai desert, give them a month to prep their defences, and then ask IDF to take them on....the results will be quiet different to what happened in 2006....

That 80s example which you gave, that was one of the first instances in which IDF had to face ATGM equipped helis, for which they hadnt thought of any anti-dote.....but then they learnt....after that, till today, no one can imagine to fly helis with such impunity without achieving air superiority in that specific sector.....SHORADs wont let the helis come near....

Surely there will be losses, but can attack aircraft (either helis or fixed wing) take on armour in the India-Pak scenario? by staying at stand off ranges and using the low flight pop up tactics... what are your thoughts on this?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Surely there will be losses, but can attack aircraft (either helis or fixed wing) take on armour in the India-Pak scenario? by staying at stand off ranges and using the low flight pop up tactics... what are your thoughts on this?

Of course thats hasnt been tried before, but it is possible, provided that AD assets on ground or defensive / barrier CAPs dont interfere.

 

[Stannis Baratheon]

Israel not losing tanks the way they used to is a testament that the system works. US army is already buying hundreds of these systems for their abrams. Russian latest development armata tank has such system.

That's because Israel did not deploy tanks in 2014 inside Gaza or that many in general. Their strategy was indiscriminate bombardment by artillery, Air Force and Navy to destroy and kill as many civilians as possible. Armata isn't even in service, the U.S Army last time used a tank in a battlefield was before its withdrawal from Iraq.

 

[Beny Karachun]

That's because Israel did not deploy tanks in 2014 inside Gaza or that many in general. Their strategy was indiscriminate bombardment by artillery, Air Force and Navy to destroy and kill as many civilians as possible. Armata isn't even in service, the U.S Army last time used a tank in a battlefield was before its withdrawal from Iraq.

We did deploy the Merkava in Gaza, there are videos of it defeating the RPG29 and Kornet.

 

[Stannis Baratheon]

We did deploy the Merkava in Gaza, there are videos of it defeating the RPG29 and Kornet.

There was like one half-a$$ed video. Also, Israel never made it inside more than a few kilometres in Gaza. If we are going with "inside Gaza", then Hamas also made it inside Israel as they attacked a forward base there.

 

[Beny Karachun]

There was like one half-a$$ed video. Also, Israel never made it inside more than a few kilometres in Gaza. If we are going with "inside Gaza", then Hamas also made it inside Israel as they attacked a forward base there.

There's 3 videos of the Merkava getting shot, 2 of them are from less than 100 meters away. There are dozens of more cases of the Trophy working but they were not captured.

Yes, Hamas did make it into Israel just as those Merkavas were in Gaza. There was no need to enter any further into Gaza because our ground invasion purpose was to destroy their tunnels.

 

[PanzerKiel]

A tank can't fire "3 rounds", it needs time to load the next round.

Of course...... Point was the comparison of loading time.... ATGM vs tank.....

Of course...... Point was the comparison of loading time.... ATGM vs tank.....

Just to reiterate my point.... A tank can fire multiple rounds within the time taken to load and prepare an ATGM.

 

[waz]

Dear posters on topic please. Brother @PanzerKiel has answered well why Pakistan deploys a large armoured force.
Let's all focus on the VT4 please.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Just to suggest a lead.....

We should be discussing the following things in relation to THIS SPECIFIC THREAD

Why VT4 was procured?
Will be replacing which tanks?
Which Indian tanks are expected to face it? Tanks of IA 16, 9 Corps, 11 Corps, 31 and 33 Armored divisions....
In which type of terrain it is expected to operate?
Which Indian anti armor assets which VT4 will be facing... And their capabilities...
Any change in peacetime deployments for VT-4 required? Where should it be placed?
.....

This way we may be able to really ANALYZE the acquisition of VT4.

 

[CHI RULES]

Just to suggest a lead.....

We should be discussing the following things in relation to THIS SPECIFIC THREAD

Why VT4 was procured?
Will be replacing which tanks?
Which Indian tanks are expected to face it? Tanks of IA 16, 9 Corps, 11 Corps, 31 and 33 Armored divisions....
In which type of terrain it is expected to operate?
Which Indian anti armor assets which VT4 will be facing... And their capabilities...
Any change in peacetime deployments for VT-4 required? Where should it be placed?
.....

This way we may be able to really ANALYZE the acquisition of VT4.

Sir can u please explain which MBTs it shall replace as AK and AZ are already in front line use meanwhile T80UD is perhaps also going for some sort of upgrade, more or less same is case with T85.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir can u please explain which MBTs it shall replace as AK and AZ are already in front line use meanwhile T80UD is perhaps also going for some sort of upgrade, more or less same is case with T85.

AZs. One whole division.

 

[CHI RULES]

AZs. One whole division.

That's the solid reply, thks

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Why VT4 was procured?

Maybe bcz India is getting more T90S/MS Tanks, More Arjun MK1A Tanks and also recently BMP 2 IFVs
https://theprint.in/defence/army-set-to-place-order-for-118-arjun-mark-1-as-the-most-potent-tank-in-its-inventory/380869/#:~:text=New Delhi: After numerous delays,main battle tank (MBT).
https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/ind...illion-deal-for-464-t-90ms-main-battle-tanks/
https://www.army-technology.com/news/indian-mod-approves-procurement-of-156-bmp-2-combat-vehicles/

Tanks of IA 16, 9 Corps, 11 Corps, 31 and 33 Armored divisions

Name them
@Joe Shearer @jbgt90

Which Indian anti armor assets which VT4 will be facing... And their capabilities...

Kornet E ATGM, Spike ER ATGM, CBU 105 on SEPECAT Jaguar, Hellfire II on Apaches, HELINA (Nag) on LCH

 

[Joe Shearer]

Maybe bcz India is getting more T90S/MS Tanks, More Arjun MK1A Tanks and also recently BMP 2 IFVs
https://theprint.in/defence/army-set-to-place-order-for-118-arjun-mark-1-as-the-most-potent-tank-in-its-inventory/380869/#:~:text=New Delhi: After numerous delays,main battle tank (MBT).
https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/ind...illion-deal-for-464-t-90ms-main-battle-tanks/
https://www.army-technology.com/news/indian-mod-approves-procurement-of-156-bmp-2-combat-vehicles/

Name them
@Joe Shearer @jbgt90

Your own experts know.

@Signalian @Gryphon

Kornet E, Spike ER ATGM, CBU 105 on SEPECAT Jaguar, Hellfire II on Apaches, HELINA (Nag) on LCH