What's new

ANALYSIS Based on PAKFA new KRET Radar Detection of Aircraft at 500 KM

Yeah, the train will detect hundreds of buildings,thousands of people, cars, crows on tracks, and the things which are nearby since the radar will be pointing straight at ground level..........unlike the airbourne fighter where obstacles are next to nill.

What a brilliant thought.


Women !!!!!:tsk:

No sir...I was serious.
I had read about it sometime back.

image.jpeg
 
ANALYSIS Based on PAKFA new KRET Radar Detection of Aircraft at 500 KM

++
NEWS
Russian fighter 5 th generation can get "future radar"

Российский истребитель 5-го поколения может получить "радар будущего" | РИА Новости

The new radar is based on the use of radio-optical phased arrays, thereby reducing the weight of the radar twice, and the resolution of the increase tenfold.

MOSCOW, December 30 - RIA Novosti. The Russian fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (T-50) can be equipped with is developing in the Russian radar, based on the use of radio-optical phased arrays (ROFAR), adviser of the first deputy general director of Concern "Radio-electronic technology '( KRET, ROFAR software company, is a "Rostec") Vladimir Mikheev.

Photonic technology greatly expand the possibilities of communication and radar ─ their weight decreased by more than half, and the resolution will increase tenfold. Ultra-wideband signal ROFAR allows you to get virtually the TV picture in the radar range. Radiofotoniki technology, in particular, should open up new opportunities for improvement "smart skin" on Russian airplanes and helicopters of the latest generation.


"The output of our work on ROFAR will get a full list of aircraft - manned and unmanned - which we plan to offer equipped with radar-based radio-optical phased arrays. I think that the PAK FA will also be on this list and it will be given to specific proposals "- said Mikheyev reporters, adding that the final decision will take the Department of Defense.

The project ROFAR based KRET laboratory was established radiofotoniki. Concern has already begun to laboratory tests to create ROFAR. Designed for 4.5 years the work is on schedule, which was agreed with the Foundation for Advanced Studies. As reported in November, RIA Novosti deputy general director Igor KRET Nasenkov, the company intends to establish a full-scale sample of the future radar until 2018.

T-50 (PAK FA project) - Russia's fifth-generation aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, and promising radar with a phased antenna array. The first flight took place in 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, the first public demonstration of a fighter - in 2011 at the Aviation and Space Salon MAKS in Zhukovsky near Moscow.

KRET was established in 2009. The main directions of its activity - development and production of complex systems and avionics for civil and military aircraft, radar airborne, the state identification, electronic warfare systems, instrumentation for various applications, electrical connectors, connectors and cable assemblies. Among the developments KRET - a family of ground-based electronic warfare "Krasuha" aircraft systems group and individual protection "Khibiny", "Vitebsk" and "Arm-AB" mobile small-sized radar "harmony."

KRET new radar will be able to look into the aircraft at a distance of 500 km


КРЭТ: новые радары смогут заглянуть в самолет на удалении 500 км | РИА Новости

Radio optical phased arrays significantly extend the capabilities of modern communication and radar - their weight decreased by more than half, and the resolution will increase tenfold.

"ROFAR allow us to see the plane, located 500 kilometers away, as if we are standing 50 meters away from him at the airport, his portrait in the baseband. Moreover, if needed, this technology will look in the aircraft itself, to know what kind of people and Appliances are there, because the signal can pass any obstacles, even lead-meter wall, "- he said Mikheyev told reporters.


++
ANALYSIS

Assuming that 500 km is detection of a standard RCS cases (assumed in details below) then -
It is apparent that radar is solely designed to detect F22 at max range.. F22 being a VLO bird indicates a RCS in the range of 0.00016 m2 unconfirmed (size of a marble).

Using the age old equation and a small work in excel i had tried to find out the maximum potential of such a radars claim in scenario as described below

The work out
  • Four cases are considered for 500 km detection claims
  • Case 1 having RCS 20 m2
  • Case 2 having RCS 10m2
  • Case 3 having RCS 5m2
  • Case 4 having RCS 3m2
  • The idea is is to understand how a bigger jet RCS of 20m2 of older flankers to modern standard RCS 3m2 detection for Su35 like flankers will influence what kind of detection range for VLO and LO birds
  • In this case the Range 500km is taken as R1
  • The four cases (case 1, Case 2, Case 3, Case 4) are taken as RCS1
  • RCS 2 is basically a range of RCS taken from 0.000010 m2 to 1m2
  • Note that unconfirmed figures suggest the following for most modern stealth jets
    • F22 at 0.00016 m2 (in yellow)
    • F35 at 0.001 m2 (in green)
    • LO jets at 0.1m2 (in blue)
  • R2 is the range of detection for such RCS 2
  • Below is the excel workout
View attachment 283973


Observations
Pls note i am considering here purely from the perspective of PAKFA detection and engagement.
  1. F22 case : As you can see the best case of detection range is in between 26.59 km to 42.73 km. Enough for either a WVR engagement (unlikely as F22 may turn around , go max thrusters/after burners and move out of detection range) or a BVR missile to ensure that inspite of escaping the missile can try and intercept uptill the max NEZ with higher Kp probability,
  2. F35 case: Detection range varies from 42.04 km to 67.56 km. Its enough for a BVR engagement but with lesser speed than F22, the chances of escaping in terms of probability is lower than F22
  3. LO Jets: This may be the case of Rafales and EFTs. The detection range is very high at 132.96 km to 213.64 km. 5th Gen gap over 4.5+ Gen can make this more wider in terms of missiles and engagements.
  4. A quick observation does suggest PAKFA is very much vulnerable to F22 if the radar of F22 can detect it earlier and engage a BVR.
  5. It is safe to assume F35 may not provide a similar challenge as F22 owing to its speed and RCS being inferior to F22
Compiling the data in graphical form here is the representation

View attachment 283972

As described above the four cases and how the RCS from minimalist to maximalist is detected by the radar of PAKFA is hereby plotted above.

@Vauban @WAJsal @Icarus @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @Abingdonboy @Levina @knight11 @anant_s @SR-91 @Capt.Popeye @Oscar @vostok @others

Pls add your comments. In case of more changes do suggest so that i can rework and re present it here.


its quit a technical thing which you have posted (your analysis) & will take a lot of time for me to grasp it fully (yes its a confession .... & I hate it ... :angry:), but I appreciate your effort would also wait for @gambit comments on this topic ....
 
Quoting an article about a year back
Date: Nov 19,2014
Link: http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2014/11/19/2742/?h
Excerpt
The system of ROFAR elements integrated into a fuselage and distributed all over its area will allow a crew to receive a coherent radar picture within a radius of 360 degrees, assure work of antenna systems in active and passive radar modes, allow using all kinds of jamming countermeasures, hidden and jamming-resistant transmission, assure communication with ground facilities and other aircraft, friend or for identification, etc.,” KRET explained.

@MilSpec
Sir, It looks like its a full 360 degree situational awareness as i had said before. By assimilation and processing of such data from multiple avenues and smart skin helping it further, the core processing software will definitely able to not only first confirm the difference between a bogey and a VLO (by multiple frequencies and smart algorithms) but will also use other modes to check and authenticate via multiple sources and eliminate false signals.

As i said earlier, it looks like this is a "Director" role which F-35 has but as we know PAKFA is designed as a "Actor" it would be interesting to see how much importance will be given to such information processing versus rest other factors.

The quasi actor-director role perhaps suits PAKFA owing to huge area under coverage for whole of Russia.

One more thing, the first prototype of this ROFAR is suppose to come out in 2018 end. The serial production after testing and if its as successful as it claims should be at least 5+ years more. So, at best this should come to serial production and integration to PAKFA by 2024-25
 
Here we go...

em_spectrum_zpslbwnbabe.jpg


First...Understand the basic electromagnetic spectrum, as illustrated above. The small fraction that is labeled 'visible' is where we, including animals, resides.

airliner_rcs_02.jpg


The above is how the current radar technology 'sees' a body, from a human to an aircraft, as a cluster of voltage spikes. A computer recognized there is a pattern inside that cluster of spikes and flagged it as a 'target'. That flag or alert is represented by a simple electronic 'dot' on a display. In other words, the computer actually 'sees' more than what it displays. What the radar computer 'sees' belongs to the right side of the EM scale.

Q: So why not display those spikes ?

A: Because the resolution is too coarse.

Basically, what the voltage spikes represents looks nothing like an aircraft. If a visual representation of something is that coarse, I do not want to spend any time looking at it and trying to deciper it. So if there is a pattern that looks close enough to an aircraft, just show me a dot and it will be enough.

But what happens if I can create freqs that are closer -- shift left -- to the 'visible' area ?

What Wavelength Goes With a Color?

em_spectrum_visible_zpsugzn5paa.jpg


Radars operates in the centimetric (cm) and millimetric (mm) range, or the right side of the scale. Some may even go giga-hertz (ghz).

The visible spectrum requires freqs -- physical wavelengths -- of tera-hertz or physical wavelengths of NANO-METERS range.

What happens is that the radar computer will still see spikes, except this time, those spikes will be magnitudinally more complex, even too the point that I will be able to recognize an aircraft.

What the Russians are claiming is that they have a radar capable of creating nano-meters scale freqs, thereby producting near photographic level quality of an image of any body.

This is a bold claim.

It is bold in the sense that in radar detection, YOU are the owner of the detection medium. The detection medium is electromagnetic (EM) radiation. We are the owners in the sense that we generate EM radiation at will, then we focus in a particular direction, and whatever returns we process it.

That is NOT how vision works.

If you see a red ball, it is not your eyes that created the EM radiation that the ball reflected to the physical wavelength of the color red. Rather, the ball reflects light from other sources that give the human eye the color red. The Moon reflects light from the Sun and the Earth. You do not own the detection medium.

But now imagine your eyes, like Superman's x-ray vision, generating EM radiation in a very coherent manner, like a laser beam, then direct that beam anywhere you want and receives human-like vision. In this case, you own the detection medium.

The Russians have effectively claimed they created an electronic eye. Not a bionic eye because a bionic eye require organic matter. But an electronic eye. In the sky. Queue The Alan Parsons Project 'Eye In The Sky' music.

Personally, I would not put too much stock on the claim that the PAK fighter will have this new fandango radar. Under laboratory conditions, a competent university can create nm scale EM signals.

On the other hand, this is the Russians. They surprised US with Sputnik. It was a Russian -- Pyotr Ufimtsev -- who gave US the math that we used to create the F-117. If what the Russians claimed is true, it would be like comparing Sputnik to the Space Shuttle. It will mean a quantum leap in radar detection technology.
 
But now imagine your eyes, like Superman's x-ray vision, generating EM radiation in a very coherent manner, like a laser beam, then direct that beam anywhere you want and receives human-like vision. In this case, you own the detection medium.

The Russians have effectively claimed they created an electronic eye.

Sir,
With what you have described, the hypothetical question that comes in mind is that "human like vision" at 500 km claims can be of what type? a commercial aircraft, a flanker, a F-16, a rafale/EFT, LO, VLO type aircraft..?
 
Sir,
With what you have described, the hypothetical question that comes in mind is that "human like vision" at 500 km claims can be of what type? a commercial aircraft, a flanker, a F-16, a rafale/EFT, LO, VLO type aircraft..?
When we are talking about the visible spectrum, low radar observable is no longer effective since being low radar observable means being low observable in the centimetric and millimetric bands.

That said...The limits of the human eye to make out shapes, not details, is around 20-25 km, maybe up to 30 km if the person is genetically blessed, like Chuck Yeager whose eyes are still 20/20 into his 90s.

Assuming what the Russians claimed is true, that they have a working nm scale radar system, the need for details would be irrelevant. Just general shapes will suffice.

For example...Do you need to know if the F-15 is a Saudi F-15 or an American F-15 ? Not really. The markings are details, but the F-15's outline would be enough. At triple digits distance, I would assume there would be electronic enhancements to allow the pilot to see the general shape of a target.

Here is something related that the US DARPA worked on...

Revolutionary new 2D optical phased array is packed onto a single, tiny chip | ExtremeTech
Rather than radio waves, ladar uses lasers to scan a given area. It shoots out optical beams and returns information that is more detailed than radar.
The test image in the article should hint at what the Russians claimed to have.

Here is another source...

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v493/n7431/full/nature11727.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20130110
...optical phased arrays have a unique advantage in that the much shorter optical wavelength holds promise for large-scale integration.
The word 'optical' means relating to that narrow range of the EM spectrum that is labeled 'visible'.

We do not need a phased array system to use shorter and shorter freqs. But what we found out was that the shorter the freq (wavelength), the more amenable it is to beamforming, which led us to use phased arrays. So if we can somehow create better and better transmit/receive (T/R) elements, the shorter and shorter freqs we can use, which would mean a radar system that uses freqs very close to the visible range, which could mean a sensor view near that of a photograph.
 
It would be interesting to see how IAF reacts to this development, it is better to wait for it, by 2022 PAKFA could mature beyond IAF's imagination and maybe IAF would be able to face future enemy fighters....this new radar can be decisive in an aerial wars

As of now main factors : We lack numbers against China or China and Pakistan combined.

We have very old fleets of combat jets like Mig 21, 27 in very large numbers in which 80% of which are already at running beyond their life time. Needed to be replaced ASAP.

We have planned to overcome aircraft strength depletion with S400 radar systems. But Russians interlinked S400 with PakFa as they did with Su35 before. Which IAF is very cautious. Our point of view is that Russians must allow our pilots to fly the machine first and go deep enquiring into its capabilities as per our requirements. Which for some reason Russians not allowing. Well not so surprising our IAF is one kind of armed force for which standards are important way beyond anyone's imagination. Which can pull off from drawbacks in PakFa project. Russians want to sell these jets to their trustable partner India but this project is a super weapon and pride of Russian technology innovation against the west.

Our Super MKI project : these radars are very impressive. Am not sure out peek power input of these radars which is considerably more efficient than the one in Sukois MKI. But CA it be fitting into our MKI with engine optimization or replacement of engines? Any one could clarify on possibilities of these Radars integrated into our MKI Upgrades?


PakFa is an incomplete aircraft. True

It's an innovative design for the future true

India badly need S400 in very large amount and in very short time. Very true

Our fleet is decreasing in. Size. True

So why we don't buy 60-80 PakFa as planned before. I mean recently. Last thing I heard was this deal for 60+ PakFa could take place during PM Moscow visit. Then came a surprise S400 deal. Then both dint work out. It's high time India should keep trust on Russian friends and go for 60+ PakFa asap. And work it's way in FGFA program and get S400 deals done on time. There are more time for improvement on this jets with additional cost or over spending for sure. We must go it. Technology-based upgrade of fleet strength with not only boost our capabilities but boost our confidence and a clear warning for those thinks about starting preemptive strike on India with 3rd and 4th Gen fighters in large or small numbers. China will get its first batch of J20 by 2017 and from there will be produced in very large numbers. As China know the image boosting gives a nation more advantages in all kind of diplomatic discussion for peace.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom