An act of nuclear proliferation

[Hulk]

A couple of articles I have read on this topic makes me believe it was not just one way street, In fact it says that Pakistan established uranium enrichment plant in China. If this is correct it is a big achievement for Pakistan, in fact it looks like China got benefited a lot. So kind of both benefited from each other.

 

[oceanx]

...
India did no such thing! The fuel that went in was ours so naturally whatever came out too belonged to us.

Okay - pardon me! There was no "cheating", no "lying", no duplicity. The same Washington Post that just dredged up the story on Pakistan no less endorsed your "chastity monument" 10 years ago, I am sure:

INDIA CHEATED​

There are no "nuclear virgins" out there ... and you can scream louder!

A couple of articles I have read on this topic makes me believe it was not just one way street, In fact it says that Pakistan established uranium enrichment plant in China. If this is correct it is a big achievement for Pakistan, in fact it looks like China got benefited a lot. So kind of both benefited from each other.

Now that's right attitude, IMO, Indianbunny. In the grand scheme of things, not much in the way of "progress" happen in a one-way street.

Some might have invented the gunpowder, but it was up still to others to come up with the dynamite. And the person who brought you dynamite also now gives out the "peace prize" ...

A two-way street applies to most things.

 

[ironman]

My dear 'hindesi', just by the word "to-do-yourself kit", you've persuaded yourself that it was an act of spoonfeeding, eh?

Do you know how many steps are there to make an atom bomb. Let me tell you some of it if you don't know.

You need the fissionable material first, Plutonium239 isotope. Uranium235, would be needed to in some cases. You'd need to refine it using a gas centrifuge. The uranium hexa-fluoride gas is piped in a cylinder, which is then spun at high speed. To be used as the fissile core of a nuclear weapon, the uranium has to be enriched to more than 90 per cent and be produced in large quantities.

The fissionable material, you could get it from Russia or China, or from Iran, since they're trying so hard to produce it. This article, most certainly is talking about the fissionable material. North Korea is not ready yet, and unfortunately, Iraqi dealers retired from the business.

^^ That's just one step.

Now you'd need TNT (trinitrotoluene) to start a nuclear chain reaction. Then you'd need a detonator. And to fabricate a detonator for the device, get a radio controlled (RC) servo mechanism -- also found in RC model planes & cars.

Now you'd need a pusher. A pusher shell made out of low density metal such as aluminium, beryllium, or an alloy of the two metals. To maximize efficiency of energy transfer in between these metals, the density difference between layers should be minimized. Tough thing.


Then you'll need to get the fissile material in order to start the chain reaction. It also depends upon the size, shape and purity of the material. Not too easy to get or produce. Your weapons-grade uranium will have to be in subcritical configuration. You must arrange the uranium into two hemispherical shapes, separated by a few centimetres. Since it's highly radioactive, it can't be produced in every laboratory. Any country owning such facility in their labs could help you out in this process. Most certainly, India too fulfilled this step with the help of Russia just like Pakistan did with the help of China, in any case.

There's a huge huge literature regarding the processes involved in making nukes. I've highlighted the ones that you consider is spoonfed thing. Review your words. Making nukes isn't easy, neither countries like India, Iran, North Korea or anyone can obtain it without any assistance of countries like China, Russia, U.S. Subsequently, you may call it anything, abetting, spoonfeeding .. whatever -- your discretion and the level of partiality and bias inside you.

Good copy paste job.. But why don't you give the credit to original author? and remove your own inputs...Here is the link .. Atomic bomb - Cetin BAL - GSM:+90  05366063183 -Turkiye/Denizli

"neither countries like India, Iran, North Korea or anyone can obtain it without any assistance of countries like China, Russia, U.S."

Yeah... who gave China,Russia and US the nuke tech the god himself?..

 

[Screaming Skull]

Okay - pardon me! There was no "cheating", no "lying", no duplicity. The same Washington Post that just dredged up the story on Pakistan no less endorsed your "chastity monument" 10 years ago, I am sure:

INDIA CHEATED​

There are no "nuclear virgins" out there ... and you can scream louder!

Here is India’s nuclear fuel cycle flowsheet until 1974:

Indigenous natural uranium extracted from ores discovered in 1949 and 1967 went into the CIRUS reactor which produced 115.5 tons of spent fuel or depleted uranium till 1974!

The role of CIRUS reactor ends there.

The 115.5 tons depleted Uranium was reprocessed in the Indian PHOENIX reprocessing plant and Indian PURNIMA-1 spectrum pulsed reactor to produce approximately 18 kg of weapons grade plutonium, out of which 6 kg was used for our 1974 weapons tests!

So, "the fuel that went in was Indian and hence whatever came out was Indian too"!

 

[oceanx]

Here is India’s nuclear fuel cycle flowsheet until 1974:

...

So, "the fuel that went in was Indian and hence whatever came out was Indian too"!

Okay, okay, the message got into my skull. In a little while I am going to ship you some good ol' Canadian Iron ore. And be sure to make a decent car out of it and ship it right back to me no questions asked.

After all, my ore went in - and who gives a r@t's @ss what "your factory" may have done with it - it should be "my car" that came out. End of story!

 

[Screaming Skull]

Okay, okay, the message got into my skull. In a little while I am going to ship you some good ol' Canadian Iron ore. And be sure to make a decent car out of it and ship it right back to me no questions asked.

After all, my ore went in - and who gives a r@t's @ss what "your factory" may have done with it - it should be "my car" that came out. End of story!

I must admit - I too don’t know how to respond to a post I don’t understand.
But if it’s a car you want then my beginner's guide to carmaking here tells me that it takes more than good ol Canadian Iron ore to make one!

 

[oceanx]

But if it’s a car you want then my beginner's guide to carmaking here tells me that it takes more than good ol Canadian Iron ore to make one!

Ah ha, you mean the same way it takes more than your "sons of the soil"-mined natural uranium and a "beginner's guide" to conjure up weapons-grade plutonium?

Even the so-called "Phoenix" reprocessing plant is hardly "indigenous":

"...
So CIRUS holds a very special place in nonproliferation history and the development of US nonproliferation policy. This needs to be understood if we are to do the right thing in working out a new nuclear relationship with India.

...

It took me two years to discover that the information provided me that day was false. The United States, in fact, had supplied the essential heavy-water component that made the Cirus reactor operable, but decided to cover up the American supplier role and let Canada "take the fall" for the Indian test. Canada promptly cut off nuclear exports to India, but the United States did not.

In 1976, when the Senate committee uncovered the U.S. heavy-water export to India and confronted the State Department on it, the government's response was another falsehood: the heavy water supplied by the U.S., it said, had leaked from the reactor at a rate of 10% a year, and had totally depleted over 10 years by the time India produced the plutonium for its test.

But the committee learned from Canada that the actual heavy-water loss rate at Cirus was less than 1% a year, and we learned from junior-high-school arithmetic that even a 10%- a-year loss rate doesn't equal 100% after 10 years. Actually, more than 90% of the original U.S. heavy water was still in the Cirus reactor after 10 years, even if it took India a decade to produce the test plutonium---itself a highly fanciful notion.

We also learned that the reprocessing plant where India had extracted the plutonium from Cirus spent fuel, described as "indigenous" in official U.S. and Indian documents, in fact had been supplied by an elaborate and secret consortium of U.S. and European companies.

Faced with this blatant example of the Executive Branch taking Congress for the fool, the Senate committee drafted and Congress eventually enacted the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Act of 1978. And the rest, as they say, is history."

​

Once again, if no one here is asking to verify your "virginity certificate", Screamer, then for whose benefit are you insisting on proving to the world that your "stitched-up hymen" is the real thing?

Adiós until a little later.

 

[Absar]

Good copy paste job.. But why don't you give the credit to original author? and remove your own inputs...Here is the link ..*Atomic bomb - Cetin BAL - GSM:+90* 05366063183 -Turkiye/Denizli

Where did I claim it's my stuff?? I'm not submitting a professional thesis where you're bound to follow a professional Harvard System of Referencing, eh

Yeah... who gave China,Russia and US the nuke tech the god himself?..

Unlike India, that can't hide its fake flamboyance -- claiming that its nuclear program is all its own efforts

You just beat around the bush and your replies were non sequitur

Do read between the lines again, dear.

 

[Luftwaffe]

yes peacefulllindian i was but maybe the court has cleared me from all the allegations and was banned prematurely. Does it bother you that I Luftwaffe is reinstated and credited? and if you want to read the exact words i wrote i do not see it racial abuse to any race but that is what i gave reference from authentic news website holding a person of a nation who committed crime..now now i don't wanna go into details since to hindus i am trying to be more specific only to the "subject" of the thread so stick with it whether i was banned or not its non of your business I'm reinstated and i am here to stay and did not offend anyone. over and out. I will report you to staff if you are going stick to this conversation.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Ah ha, you mean the same way it takes more than your "sons of the soil"-mined natural uranium and a "beginner's guide" to conjure up weapons-grade plutonium?

Even the so-called "Phoenix" reprocessing plant is hardly "indigenous":

Ah Nuclear Control Institute eh? Are you really that naïve or are you lost in the ocean of propaganda created by the 19th most powerful man in the world?

Read the articles published by this institute and let me know if there is anything in the world that goes with the first name- nuclear, they acknowledge being non-American.
Do yourself a favor and at least ensure that from next time you don’t post trash pulled out of the crevices of non-proliferation sharks lest you wanna know how every single nuclear particle in the world originated from the grey-matter of western punks!

So CIRUS holds a very special place in nonproliferation history and the development of US nonproliferation policy. This needs to be understood if we are to do the right thing in working out a new nuclear relationship with India.

Oh puhlease! If you could just surface from your ocean of propaganda for a breath of fresh air- I have few facts for you to chew on

• India signed the agreement to PURCHASE the Canada-India Reactor (CIR) from Canada in 1955 while the IAEA came into existence only in 1957.

• India paid for the CIRUS reactor with Canada taking care of the foreign exchange component of the cost only. So, technically India owns the reactor!

• No strict safeguards on the use of the spent fuel/depleted uranium produced by the reactor were made other than the commitment by India, via an annex to the agreement, that the reactor and fissile materials it produced would be used only for peaceful purposes, hence NOT BINDING!

• On March 16, 1956, a contract was signed by the U.S. and India (again before the creation of IAEA) for supply of 18.9 tons of heavy water for the reactor. This agreement was based on the possibility that India’s own Nangal heavy water plant may fail to operate at the required capacity factor. Following this, the reactor was dubbed the Canada-India Reactor, United States (CIRUS). (While the article you posted makes one believe that US supplied Heavy Water covertly when the agreement was out in the open.)

Bottomline- NO IAEA – No concept of non-proliferation – NO binding agreement – ALL deals done in the open – Indian fuel went into the reactor – Indian fuel went into the Bomb! End of story!

And just before you try conjuring up some trash from another crevice, take a look at this venn - diagram

Courtesy- National Resources Defense Council

If it is very difficult for you to make sense out complicated geometric shapes representing data, then let me represent it in a more comprehensible form for you Mr. floater punk-

It shows the historical sharing of nuclear weapons knowledge among countries, which shows the self-reliant unique nature of the Indian weapons programme. Sharing of knowledge is expressed by intersection of circles. The number in the brackets after each country is the number of tests carried out by it. The number 4 against India is related to the authors’ axiom that any two tests carried out simultaneously within one kilometer would be counted as one. Thus the May 11 tests count as two because the 15 kt fission device and the 45 kt thermonuclear device were tested simultaneously a kilometre apart while the sub-kiloton device was tested further away. The two sub-kiloton devices tested simultaneously on May 13 are again counted as one test. With inclusion of the May 1974 test, the total number is 4. Same being the case with the number against Pakistan.

Source- Christopher E. Paine, Senior Researcher and Co-Director, NRDC Nuclear Program, and Matthew G. McKinzie, Project Scientist, NRDC Nuclear Program. A shorter version of this article appeared in the journal Science and Global Security, 1998, Volume 7, pp. 151-193.

Next time use your prudence and bark up the right tree!

Chao!

 

[ironman]

Where did I claim it's my stuff?? I'm not submitting a professional thesis where you're bound to follow a professional Harvard System of Referencing, eh



Unlike India, that can't hide its fake flamboyance -- claiming that its nuclear program is all its own efforts

You just beat around the bush and your replies were non sequitur

Do read between the lines again, dear.

err.. then what was the intention for a spoon feeding post? It was you claimed complexity of the process is too attain for Indian scientists.. Heck.. Are you capable of differentiate the tougher and lighter side of the process? and which one is attained by India itself, the part may involved a Foreign hand? ..if these are included, I might have been pushed the thanks button .. but you simply concluded it "If we can't make it so can't you". Do you even consider NPT has signed by USSR in 1968 and China only in 1992..Better read your own lines sir..

 

[Omar1984]

FO denies report, US says no comment
​

ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Office rejected a Washington Post article on purported Pakistan-China nuclear cooperation, saying the allegations contained in the article were baseless – while the US refused to comment on the matter. “Pakistan strongly rejects the assertions in the article... evidently timed to malign Pakistan and China,” said an FO. He said it was yet another attempt to divert attention from the support being extended to the Indian nuclear programme.

Meanwhile, US State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said he had no comment on the claims, but “the US is confident about Pakistan’s nuclear security”, according to APP. staff report

 

[Omar1984]

US has no specific Nuclear proliferation concerns from Pakistan: Spokesman​

WASHINGTON, Nov 14 (APP): The United States on Friday renewed its confidence in Pakistan’s nuclear security regime, and said currently it does not have any specific concerns about proliferation from the country.State Department Spokesman Ian Kelly, asked about a report in The Washington Post on reported nuclear cooperation between Pakistan and China about thirty years ago, said he has no comment on the specific claims in the report but said the U.S. is confident about Pakistan’s nuclear security.


Islamabad has rejected claims made in the Post story.“Of course, we place a high, may be the highest priority, on the importance of securing nuclear materials. The president (Barack Obama) is committed to a strong non-proliferation regime,” the spokesman said at the daily briefing.

“But talking about this article, this is about something that happened in early 1980s and I don’t have any comment on that specific incident.”

“I think, we are always concerned about the possibility of proliferation of nuclear weapons and nuclear materials.

“We feel confident that the command and control of nuclear weapons in Pakistan is secure. And we don’t have any specfic concerns about proliferation per se specifically from Pakisan.”

Asked if the U.S. raised that issue with China, the spokesman said “I don’t know, I just dont have that information, it was all 30 years ago, so difficult for me to say.”

 

[oceanx]

Ah Nuclear Control Institute eh? Are you really that naïve or are you lost in the ocean of propaganda created by the 19th most powerful man in the world?
...
Oh puhlease! If you could just surface from your ocean of propaganda for a breath of fresh air- I have few facts for you to chew on
...
No concept of non-proliferation – NO binding agreement – ALL deals done in the open – Indian fuel went into the reactor – Indian fuel went into the Bomb! End of story!

And just before you try conjuring up some trash from another crevice, take a look at this venn - diagram

Courtesy- National Resources Defense Council

If it is very difficult for you to make sense out complicated geometric shapes representing data, then let me represent it in a more comprehensible form for you Mr. floater punk-
...
It shows the historical sharing of nuclear weapons knowledge among countries, which shows the self-reliant unique nature of the Indian weapons programme. Sharing of knowledge is expressed by intersection of circles. ...

I might have been awol for half a weekend but that's the best you can do to "punk out" the "floater punk"?

A "Venn diagram" in lieu of a shinny nuclear "virginity certificate"?! O yes, I have trouble "making sense out (of) complicated geometric shapes" - that's why my "grade school friends" at least add a little colour and make them 3-D ... Anyways, I'll come back to your stitched up "Vennginity diagram" a little later.

Now the article "India Cheated" was quote from the NCI, not Ted Turner's NTI. Now you might wish to posthumously crown the founder of NCI, Paul Leventhal, a life-long dedicated antiproliferation professional, as the "19th most powerful" man in the world - well, perhaps his widow wouldn't mind you donating to his estate.

And let's now turn attention to your iron-clad source at National Resources Defense Council - wait, it is actually the "Natural Resources Defense Council. Well, what can I say, I might be "geometric shape"-challenged.

But I'd like to think I passed Copy-and-Paste 101 ...

Well, where is the harm? let's not worry about world-wide consensus and non-proliferation experts' opinions. Who knows - they could all be on the payroll of uh, ISI - that's it, who else?

Experts schmersperts, the question is, did India, or did India NOT "indigenously" obtain its Plutonium for its weapons? And what did your beloved National Tree Huggers Association say about that in black-and-white?

"The plutonium for the nuclear device exploded by India in May 1974 was obtained from its CIRUS research reactor and recovered at the Trombay reprocessing plant ..." as in here; or

"The plutonium used in India’s first nuclear test in 1974 was produced in CIRUS, thus making CIRUS India’s first production reactor." as in here for anyone interested.​

So much for them vouching for your "nuclear chastity".

Now we can discuss the real reasons why the "Chakra" had no intersection on your "Vennginity Diagram". Every intersection - one way or another - represented an act of "willful" transference of nuclear technology - in the days before the NPT regime was widely acceded to. Even in the case of USA-->USSR transference, one can claim a "willful act" or acts by some US citizens, albeit without the approval of US government.

The acts may have been wrong - but there were at least some elements of consent involved in each "intersection" - or transaction if you will.

But for India, whereby the transfer of nuclear knowledge, engineering prowess, and production acumen were done by ruse, duplicity, and entirely without consent. That's why you will not see Canada, the unwitting cuckolder in this case - on your "Vennginity Diagram" - for Canada could not be held responsible in any meaningful sense.

Sure, the Candian Nuclear Association lies; the CBC lies; India's own Rediff lies (one of your "analysts" admitted there that even to this day, 1/3 of Bharat's Plutonium comes from the Canadian-built CIRUS!) - and books such as this one also lies ...

Now, I'd be among the first to acknowledge that India had to do whatever it took to defend its vital NATIONAL interest. It would be nice, however, for Indians to say "well we did what we had to do at the time and thanks Canada even though we understand why you might be peeved". Should the Chakra of fortune turns one day and you need our help, we'll remember that ...

But no - the gratitude Canada gets instead is summed up as: "well, hehe, it's non-binding so screw you" ... Well, I suppose since no "vows" are "binding" to the Bharat-does-no-wrong crowd, we'll only know at the time of "Sati pyre" what's real and what's words.

I would also be among the first to cheer - if one day a South Asian scientist, or scientists - make major breakthroughs in nuclear science that benefit the whole mankind. But we will suffer none of this "holier-than-thou" attitude.

Finally - once again, just because Canada is not on your "Vennginity diagram" since Canada doesn't want anything to do with it, and least of all condone your waving a "chastity certificate" in front while cuckolding in the back, let me break the news to you again: there are no innocent "virgins" in the Temple of Nuclear Armament.

And if anything, some who claim "peaceful explosions" (akin to"non-sexual" intercourse ) were the biggest *** in that unholy league ...

 

[oceanx]

Now somebody doctored this one ... very amateurish, low-brow, even crude!

But what the hey?