AMRAAM BVR Missiles Delivered to Pakistan

[Chogy]

When comparing missiles, I always like to look at real-world performance data rather than paper data. This can include test shots, but nothing can compare to combat data.

The world of U.S. A-A missiles took a quantum leap forward in the 1970's, and this paralleled huge advances in solid state circuitry and integrated chips. Prior to this, you had missiles like the AIM-7E and AIM-9D/G/H, all of which had rather dismal records in Vietnam combat. Normal practice was to shoot two missiles due to the low Pk. Background clutter for the AIM-7, and oddities in the AIM-9, really limited their effectiveness.

Then, the AIM-7F/M, and especially the AIM-9L, revolutionized tactics as the Pk skyrocketed, and pilots could trust their missiles, which they tended to not do in the past. Actual Pk's are classified, but there is public data to show how deadly they are. My favorite is the Falklands conflict and the AIM-9L. The Brits did not have any sort of decent A-A capability for their Harriers, and a crash course patched the AIM-9L to their jets. There were no range cues, no HUD cues, nothing except the missile audio patched into the headset. The pilots were told "Point at the enemy. When you hear this tone, and he looks in range, shoot the missile."

The Brits were doubtful, but they did what the engineers said. The result - 24 missiles fired, 22 Argentine jets downed. The two misses were kinematic... out of range.

In Desert Storm, if you look here at the list of kills, the right column shows the weapon used. Many will be surprised that the AIM-7 overwhelmingly accounted for more kills than the AIM-9. The AIM-7F, and especially the "M", were very good missiles.

My point: All of this technology is wrapped up in the AIM-120, and the AIM-9M. In the "Mike", Pakistan has what I believe to be the most lethal air-air missile ever fielded, claims to the contrary notwithstanding. The Russians might disagree, but you cannot argue with real-world success.

I was against mounting a gun in the F-22, which was a big debate early in its design. The ghosts of Vietnam missiles are long gone, and we have truly reached a point where the gun is no longer needed for A2A. Fuel is so much more important than a 20mm cannon, IMO.

 

[Patriot]

Thanks Chogy - Now PAF has good arsenal.PAF had also ordered AIM9M few years back.

300 AIM-9M Tactical Missiles for Pakistan
US DoD

In a Pentagon contract announcement Raytheon Systems d/b/a Raytheon Systems Co., Tucson, Ariz., is being awarded a $29,443,350 ceiling-priced modification to a previously awarded firm-fixed-price contract (N00019-03-C-0003) for 300 AIM-9M tactical missiles and 10 captive air-training missiles for the Government of Pakistan under the Foreign Military Sales Program.

Work will be performed in Tucson, Ariz. (93 percent) and Andover, Mass., (7 percent), and is expected to be completed in August 2007. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year.

The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Md., is the contracting activity.

 

[blain2]

When comparing missiles, I always like to look at real-world performance data rather than paper data. This can include test shots, but nothing can compare to combat data.

The world of U.S. A-A missiles took a quantum leap forward in the 1970's, and this paralleled huge advances in solid state circuitry and integrated chips. Prior to this, you had missiles like the AIM-7E and AIM-9D/G/H, all of which had rather dismal records in Vietnam combat. Normal practice was to shoot two missiles due to the low Pk. Background clutter for the AIM-7, and oddities in the AIM-9, really limited their effectiveness.

Then, the AIM-7F/M, and especially the AIM-9L, revolutionized tactics as the Pk skyrocketed, and pilots could trust their missiles, which they tended to not do in the past. Actual Pk's are classified, but there is public data to show how deadly they are. My favorite is the Falklands conflict and the AIM-9L. The Brits did not have any sort of decent A-A capability for their Harriers, and a crash course patched the AIM-9L to their jets. There were no range cues, no HUD cues, nothing except the missile audio patched into the headset. The pilots were told "Point at the enemy. When you hear this tone, and he looks in range, shoot the missile."

The Brits were doubtful, but they did what the engineers said. The result - 24 missiles fired, 22 Argentine jets downed. The two misses were kinematic... out of range.

In Desert Storm, if you look here at the list of kills, the right column shows the weapon used. Many will be surprised that the AIM-7 overwhelmingly accounted for more kills than the AIM-9. The AIM-7F, and especially the "M", were very good missiles.

My point: All of this technology is wrapped up in the AIM-120, and the AIM-9M. In the "Mike", Pakistan has what I believe to be the most lethal air-air missile ever fielded, claims to the contrary notwithstanding. The Russians might disagree, but you cannot argue with real-world success.

I was against mounting a gun in the F-22, which was a big debate early in its design. The ghosts of Vietnam missiles are long gone, and we have truly reached a point where the gun is no longer needed for A2A. Fuel is so much more important than a 20mm cannon, IMO.

Chogy,

Excellent post! I do think that given the proliferation of HMS and High Off Bore Sight missiles, Pakistan will have to acquire AAMs in the AIM-9x class in the near future if they are released to Pakistan.

What is your take on the newer HOBS AAM like the AIM-9X?

 

[Chogy]

Chogy,

Excellent post! I do think that given the proliferation of HMS and High Off Bore Sight missiles, Pakistan will have to acquire AAMs in the AIM-9x class in the near future if they are released to Pakistan.

What is your take on the newer HOBS AAM like the AIM-9X?

Thank you, and in re-reading what I posted, I think I was unfair to the new Russian missiles. The USSR and now Russia has fielded some excellent short-ranged IR missiles with some truly unique aerodynamics; very agile, and with high off-boresight capability. On paper, they seem to be very good, but there hasn't been much real-world use to this point, so it's hard to say. But I suspect they will do the job.

I wish I could expand more on the AIM-9X. All I can do is speculate on that missile specifically. But the trend towards helmet-mounted optical systems to slew a seeker to extreme off-boresight is another revolutionary step that will change how fighters do business.

In the F-15, the AIM-9 seeker can be in one of two locations - boresighted, or tied to the radar line of sight. Approaching a merge, a good pilot could launch an AIM-7 on one jet, switch to IR missile, then manually force the AIM-9 seeker (which is tied to the radar LOS) back to boresight. - get that on another jet, release the seeker, confirm the tone, and shoot. It was a bit of a finger dance.

The notion of simply eyeballing another target to get the seeker to slew in that direction is a huge advantage. Combined with a modern, all-aspect IR missile, it can (in theory) allow a pilot to shoot several targets before any turning even begins.

We've come a long way from swirling, guns-only fights with F-86's and MiG-15's!

 

[MastanKhan]

I was against mounting a gun in the F-22, which was a big debate early in its design. The ghosts of Vietnam missiles are long gone, and we have truly reached a point where the gun is no longer needed for A2A. Fuel is so much more important than a 20mm cannon, IMO.

Hi,

Oh merciful sweet Lord---somebody hit me on the head---at least some one to back me up---even though it has been quite awhile---but it did happen.

Thankyou sir.

 

[Quwa]

Chogy,

Excellent post! I do think that given the proliferation of HMS and High Off Bore Sight missiles, Pakistan will have to acquire AAMs in the AIM-9x class in the near future if they are released to Pakistan.

What is your take on the newer HOBS AAM like the AIM-9X?

For what its worth, the IRIS-T was already tested from a F-16 and was also marketed at IDEAS 2006 & 2008. If anything, there is another good option for PAF F-16s.

 

[Chogy]

Hi,

Oh merciful sweet Lord---somebody hit me on the head---at least some one to back me up---even though it has been quite awhile---but it did happen.

Thankyou sir.

Hahahaha! We are in a small company of "no gun" advocates then. I got so tired of the debate. "Well, what happens when you need the gun for self-defense? Huh? What then?" The gun will be useless while the enemy stands off 5 miles and launches a missile. The envelopes of the gun and IR missiles overlap hugely, almost to the point where there is no difference. And if we send F-22's to strafe, instead of A-10's, then the end is very near.

A gun on an F-22 is like a float-plane on a catapult mounted on a cruiser. An antique no longer needed.

 

[skybolt]

Pakistan Air Force Takes Delivery of AIM-120 C5 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles

United States have delivered the first batch of Advance Medium Range Air to Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120 C5 to the Pakistan air force for its F-16 C/D block 52+ aircrafts. This will make the AIM-120 C5 to be the first BVR missile in arsenal of the Pakistan air force.

Pakistani air force’s spokesperson has said that Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles in the PAF inventory not only marks the achievement of another major milestone in PAF Developmental Plan, but also bolsters its defensive capabilities manifold. Additionally, this capability brings PAF at par with other modern Air Forces of the world in terms of sophistication of its air-to air arsenal.

PAF’s spokesperson said that delivery of remaining F-16 C/D block 52+ aircrafts and Advance Medium Range Air to Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120 C5 will complete by the end of this year.

 

[skybolt]

 

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---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

 

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Symbology firing AMRAAM F-16MLU.

 

[skybolt]