America's ridiculous stance on Kashmir

[UKBengali]

everyone in the sense......?

democracy does not mean you give in to secessiondemand of a group that is only 0.1% of the indian population....your chiitagong hill tracts wanted independence .....did you give?.......balochistan wants independence....did pakistanis give...? ireland wanted indpeendence...did uk give?


stupid logic of yours and stupid definition for democracy....

also we don't worry if the kashmiri muslims want to go to pakistan...they can sell their assets, pack their bags and go in the next flight....we will not miss them....but the land stays with india.....is that enough democracy for you ....?

The old Kashmiris only make up 0.1-0.4% etc population of the Indian population is not very logical. Let me explain why.

Country A with a population of 100 million takes over country B with a population of 10 million. Does this mean that country A can say that since country B makes up less than 10% of the populations of both country A and country B, that country B cannot have independence? Buy this logic any large country can take and hold any smaller country in the world.


Let me explain my thoughts on the principle of self-determination for the people's of the subcontinent. Pakistan is made up of 5 diferrent provinces(nations) that came together to form the state of Pakistan. Any one of these provinces should be able to vote in a referendum to leave the Pakistani state any time. India is made up nations that have been classified as states and any one of these should be able to vote in a referendum to leave the Indian state at any time. Bangladesh differs from both Pakistan and India in that it is (apart fom the 0.5 million people in chiitagong hill tracts who could never be a viable state anyways and they have agreed to stay within Bangladesh now) a state that is also one nation of predominantly Muslim Bangladeshis.

I say to India let Kashmir merge into one and decide their own destiny. You claim that you are a democracy, then why not allow the Kashmiri nation the democratic right to decide it's own destiny? In the UK, England would never think to get in the way of either Scotland or Wales leaving the British state and going their own separate ways.

 

[Kazhugu]

Actually, 66% of Kashmiris in Indian Kashmir want independence from India:

Kashmir 101: Decoding Kashmir's conflict - What do Kashmiris want now? - CSMonitor.com

Most Kashmiris want independence, India imposes curfew | Asia-Pasific | World Bulletin

the above ones taken in 1995 when even saying anything against eh militants or separatists can get you brutally killed dont matter especially if they are by CSmonitir or some obscure turkish organistaion.

Here read this chatham house poll taken last in 2010 by neutral organisations which says 44% want independence in p-o-k from pk and 43% want independence from india in jk.....this was already raised by you and debunked by ejaz and toxic pus some days before.........

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/118850-time-forget-kashmir-3.html#post1954644

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/118850-time-forget-kashmir-3.html#post1954815

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/118850-time-forget-kashmir-4.html#post1955488

 

[53fd]

the above ones taken in 1995 when even saying anything against eh militants or separatists can get you brutally killed dont matter especially if they are by CSmonitir or some obscure turkish organistaion.

Here read this chatham house poll taken last in 2010 by neutral organisations which says 44% want independence in p-o-k from pk and 43% want independence from india in jk.....this was already raised by you and debunked by ejaz and toxic pus some days before.........

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/118850-time-forget-kashmir-3.html#post1954644

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/118850-time-forget-kashmir-3.html#post1954815

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/118850-time-forget-kashmir-4.html#post1955488

It says that the polls in Kashmir have taken place since 1995, not that it was taken in 1995. Big difference.

Secondly, there is no credible poll or evidence that states that 44% of AJK residents want independence from Pakistan.

 

[53fd]

2007 results:

'87% in Valley want Independence' - Express India

Sentiments can't be too different in 3.5 years time.

 

[Kazhugu]

The old Kashmiris only make up 0.1-0.4% etc population of the Indian population is not very logical. Let me explain why.

Country A with a population of 100 million takes over country B with a population of 10 million. Does this mean that country A can say that since country B makes up less than 10% of the populations of both country A and country B, that country B cannot have independence? Buy this logic any large country can take and hold any smaller country in the world.

it is logical because we did not invade kashmir first...the pakistani tribals invaded first and for protection the maharaja legally acceded to india by signing theinstrument of accesion...so there is no question of occupation.....kashmir has been a part of bharat for centuries and so now its a part of india....

Let me explain my thoughts on the principle of self-determination for the people's of the subcontinent. Pakistan is made up of 5 diferrent provinces(nations) that came together to form the state of Pakistan. Any one of these provinces should be able to vote in a referendum to leave the Pakistani state. India is made up nations that have been classified as states and any one of these should be able to vote in a referendum to leave the Indian state at any one time.

it is wrong....they were independent states only as long as they did not sign the instrument of accesion or the parliament did not accpet them as new states...once that is done they are a part of the sovereign republic of india and as such any secession movement that threatens the integrrity of the country will be dealt with as it will be in any part of the world.....if the kashmiri muslims think that partition is not finished let them finish it by doing what the sindhis, punjabis, bengalis,biharis, gujratis did..sell their properties and migrate to the land of their choice...we will not block them.....that is the most fair option.....the transfer of land always was with the ruler of the princely state.....


Bangladesh differs from both Pakistan and India in that it is (apart fom the 0.5 million people in chiitagong hill tracts who could never be a viable state anyways and they have agreed to stay within Bangladesh now) a state that is also one nation of predominantly Muslim Bangladeshis.

that is the same we sat about the kashmiri muslim demand....as indpendent they will not be a viable state between three nuclear powers.....they will become another afghanstan........

I say to India let Kashmir merge into one and decide their own destiny. You claim that you are a democracy, then why not allow the Kashmiri nation the democratic right to decide it's own destiny? In the UK, England would never think to get in the way of either Scotland or Wales leaving the British state and going their own separate ways.

that is not possible because of the massive demography changes on teh pakistani side with panjabis and other communities settling there.....uk will not allow scotland or wales become another sovereign nation...will it....we saw it in the case of ireland how they crushed the secession movement bloodily.....

get over kashmir....the more pakistan thinks about kashmir the more doom for it......kashmir is with india and wil remain with india...we cannot aloow the will of the islamist fanatics to over rule the will of 1.2 billion people...or even teh kashmiri pandits, ladakhi buddhists, kargil shias and the jammuites.....

 

[Kazhugu]

It says that the polls in Kashmir have taken place since 1995, not that it was taken in 1995. Big difference.

Secondly, there is no credible poll or evidence that states that 44% of AJK residents want independence from Pakistan.

similarly there is no credible poll to say 66% want indpendence from india......

if you can deny chatham house polls because it does not suit your version of history we can deny everything else....

 

[Kazhugu]

2007 results:

'87% in Valley want Independence' - Express India

Sentiments can't be too different in 3.5 years time.

the valley cannot hold the will of the people from other districts hostage to its hardline views......sorry.....those islamist fanatics can go to pakistan if they want.....

kashmir as an independent state is not viable....period...the sooner pakistan understands the reality...the better for it....

 

[Kazhugu]

 

[Kazhugu]

as everyone can see the clamour for independence is limited to some districts where hardline muslims are there and the support to jin pakistan is almost nil everywhere.....

so what moral ground are the pakistanis speaking here......

except some brainwashed geelani supporters no one really wants to do anything with pakistan in jammu and kashmir.....

 

[Maritimer]

Another thread on Kashmir derailed by the same discussions on referendum, army oppression, cross-border terrorism, opinion polls. Isn't this thread about change in American stance? How come no one is discussing it. Kashmiri separatists funded by ISI were operating freely in the US with the full knowledge and support of the Americans. But now, these so-called pressure groups have been spurned by the US. Is this a shift in American policy on Kashmir favouring the Indian position, or is it just a tactic to send a message to Pakistan to 'do more'?

 

[53fd]

There have been in depth opinion surveys as recently as 2009 from independent groups in the UK/US including the EU parliament under Baroness Nicholson. They included a discussion on the UN status as well and why they are irrelevant. In all cases we have a pretty good idea of what the ground situation is. Not to mention that almost every govt. in the world supports the stance that Kashmir is a bilateral issue.

We KNOW what the Kashmiri people want more or less. The next step is to get to a solution. In short ,
(1) We KNOW for certain that the overwhelming majority of people of J&K including the valley people DO NOT want to be a part of Pakistan
(2) We know that the valley people mostly want independence, BUT they want independence of the entire state of J&K including GilgitBaltistan, a opinon that Fai supported as well. This represents about 43% of the opinion of the entire state.
(3) We know that as a whole majority of the people of J&K including a section of the valley do not want independence and similarly on the Pakistani side 44%want independence but the majority want to stay as a part of Pakistan.

President Musharraf realized this and hence he came with his 4-point formula which made the LoC IB but allowing freedom of movement for the people of J&K across the border.

Lets leave aside the CIA/ISI compulsions for now. Even if this arrest had NOT happened, the above reality would still hold. Fai's efforts would remain an irritant and thats about it. As normal, we should be concerned more about the welfare of the people of Kashmir at the quickest way to resolve the issue. I wouldn't support a demand of independence by Turkistanis in China, but I would support freedom of religion and fair treatment and end of HR abuse for them. The same for Chechens in Russia. Then why not apply the same in India. Mushrraf realized this after 60+ years. Will the rest of the Pakistanis too?

Some other interesting facts you forgot to point out in the chatham house polls:

According to the poll results, in the Kashmir Valley - the mainly Muslim area, the support for independence is between 74 percent and 95 percent.

Such a big divergence cannot be be considered 'reliable' when interpreting poll results, as there is too much 'fluctuation' & variability.

In the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under one percent.

Jammu & Ladakh, which like Gilgit-Baltistan in Pakistan do not have separatist tendencies, should not have been included in the poll results, just like Gilgit-Baltistan has not been included. The results of Jammu & Ladakh are hence irrelevant, & they bring the average down for India. The people of Gilgit-Baltistan shunned the separatists in AJK & J&K, & had elections in 2009, & passed the internal autonomy bill which gives them all the powers of a province. This bill was passed by the Gilgit-Baltistan Legislative Assembly, made up by the people of Gilgit-Baltistan.

http://www.hrcp-web.org/pdf/Gilgit-Baltistan Report.pdf

In Pakistan's AJK, 44% favored independence. But India's Jammu & Ladakh results should not have been included, just as Pakistan's Gilgit-Baltistan were not considered. So this is a flawed study. And Azad Kashmir is already technically not a part of Pakistan, but an independent nation.

Some other interesting facts from this study:

a) 80 percent of Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC say that the dispute is important to them personally.

b) Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43 percent on the Indian side and 19 percent on the Pakistani side.

c) Concern over unemployment is strong across the territory - 66 percent on the Pakistani side and 87 percent on the Indian side.

d) Few are optimistic over peace talks between India & Pakistan - only 27 percent on the Pakistani side and 57 percent on the Indian side. (which goes to show that Kashmiris in AJK have greater distrust for India than the Kashmiris from J&K have for Pakistan.

 

[Juice]

Has ther been an open vote in Kashmir? If so, what was the result?

 

[Kazhugu]

In Pakistan's AJK, 44% favored independence. But India's Jammu & Ladakh results should not have been included, just as Pakistan's Gilgit-Baltistan were not considered. So this is a flawed study. And Kashmir is already technically not a part of Pakistan.

friend....... that is why a district wise breakup is given....so that the statistics are not skewed........im not sure how you can al teh poll taken by a very reputed organisation with vast experience in the field with reputed staticians to be flawed by your own twisted reasoning.......


a) 80 percent of Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC say that the dispute is important to them personally.

natural...but that doe snot correlate into separatist tendencies or desire for freedom from either state......

b) Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43 percent on the Indian side and 19 percent on the Pakistani side.

we are a more open state and hence more reports are coming out....simple.......

c) Concern over unemployment is strong across the territory - 66 percent on the Pakistani side and 87 percent on the Indian side.

just underlines the indian policy that this is basically a question of economy and if economically developed this problem will dissipate......

d) Few are optimistic over peace talks between India & Pakistan - only 27 percent on the Pakistani side and 57 percent on the Indian side. (which goes to show that Kashmiris in AJK have greater distrust for India than the Kashmiris from J&K have for Pakistan.

need not mwean what you said...it can also mean...people from jk have greater mistrust for pakistans abilities and intents in peace talks......

 

[karan.1970]

d) Few are optimistic over peace talks between India & Pakistan - only 27 percent on the Pakistani side and 57 percent on the Indian side. (which goes to show that Kashmiris in AJK have greater distrust for India than the Kashmiris from J&K have for Pakistan.

Or, may be people in Pakistan held Kashmir are more radicalized and have less to lose and hence have lesser desire for peace than people living in Jammu and Kashmir..

See buddy, it swings both ways

 

[Kazhugu]

Has ther been an open vote in Kashmir? If so, what was the result?

friend....open vote in kashmir is not possoble because the demography has been chnaged on the pakistani side while its not on the indian side....

anyway some polls taken indicate that none of the indian kashmiris want to join pakistan while the demand to join india and get independence depends on teh religion and the area in which the district is located.....

the demand for independence is mainly limited to about 5 districts in north kashmir which has majority sunni muslims while the rest of the state having hindus, buddhists and shia muslims want to be with india.......