America's Gift to China

[Genesis]

Recently America has come out in support of a more active role in SCS, and China obviously denounced it. Pretty standard. 2016 RIMPAC has been said to not include China, and one of the reasons is we sent a spy ship, ironic considering what the Americans mean when they say Freedom of Navigation. Either way, America has thrown China a life line, and given us the best chance to improve our naval and aerial capabilities yet.

The American involvement in South China Sea.

During the cold war, America got its expertise from sub hunting games with the Soviets, naval and aerial encounters, and everything else that gave America the expertise in military affairs. Today, America is offering their expertise not only free of charge, but also an encouragement to Chinese military and political establishment that China must move forward at all cost.

There will be "experts" that question what China can learn from the Americans, and how much the Americans will learn from these encounters. All of these true, but only to an extent, Chinese expertise in these fields are limited, and just being in these situations will greatly help enhance the Chinese capabilities. Especially today when our military industrial complex can look at a problem and fix it.

Could Americans learn more about Chinese capabilities? Certainly, but that's a double edge sword as we will learn more from Americans as well, and since Americans are already well versed in the art of military encounters, and more advance in military technology, China will be closing the gap a lot faster than Americans can increase it. The obvious reason is that it's far easier to catch up than it is to go forward.

Lastly, could these actions result in war? A decrease in Chinese activities? Or anything that might benefit US "Allies?" The Answer to all those is no. America is competent enough to not do anything too risky that can result in a mishap, while China is certainly not looking to war.

Decrease in activities at this point requires explosives rather than changing flight routes, and China has no shortage of cash, expertise, or will. What the Americans are really saying is if you want respect, come and take it. Politicians usually don't respond to threats well, part of it is because that's the type of people that go into politics, part of it is because they are not used to hear no, but mostly it's because they like power and legacy and looking like a chump doesn't do well for either.

Finally, benefiting ASEAN like building islands, increasing capabilities, all sound good, until you remember America is the country that can't build a HSR from SF to LA, and messed up Iraq to this day when Saddam rebuilt Iraq after 91 in half a year with no money and sanctions.

As to capabilities, that's not a problem of not having it, than a problem of they will never have the type of money China has. Another key difference between the Soviets and China.


All those that said don't invite China to RIMPAC? Do what you wish and all those that wishes for American involvement, careful you you wish for. Sometimes, it just may come true.

 

[Aepsilons]

Recently America has come out in support of a more active role in SCS, and China obviously denounced it. Pretty standard. 2016 RIMPAC has been said to not include China, and one of the reasons is we sent a spy ship, ironic considering what the Americans mean when they say Freedom of Navigation. Either way, America has thrown China a life line, and given us the best chance to improve our naval and aerial capabilities yet.

The American involvement in South China Sea.

During the cold war, America got its expertise from sub hunting games with the Soviets, naval and aerial encounters, and everything else that gave America the expertise in military affairs. Today, America is offering their expertise not only free of charge, but also an encouragement to Chinese military and political establishment that China must move forward at all cost.

There will be "experts" that question what China can learn from the Americans, and how much the Americans will learn from these encounters. All of these true, but only to an extent, Chinese expertise in these fields are limited, and just being in these situations will greatly help enhance the Chinese capabilities. Especially today when our military industrial complex can look at a problem and fix it.

Could Americans learn more about Chinese capabilities? Certainly, but that's a double edge sword as we will learn more from Americans as well, and since Americans are already well versed in the art of military encounters, and more advance in military technology, China will be closing the gap a lot faster than Americans can increase it. The obvious reason is that it's far easier to catch up than it is to go forward.

Lastly, could these actions result in war? A decrease in Chinese activities? Or anything that might benefit US "Allies?" The Answer to all those is no. America is competent enough to not do anything too risky that can result in a mishap, while China is certainly not looking to war.

Decrease in activities at this point requires explosives rather than changing flight routes, and China has no shortage of cash, expertise, or will. What the Americans are really saying is if you want respect, come and take it. Politicians usually don't respond to threats well, part of it is because that's the type of people that go into politics, part of it is because they are not used to hear no, but mostly it's because they like power and legacy and looking like a chump doesn't do well for either.

Finally, benefiting ASEAN like building islands, increasing capabilities, all sound good, until you remember America is the country that can't build a HSR from SF to LA, and messed up Iraq to this day when Saddam rebuilt Iraq after 91 in half a year with no money and sanctions.

As to capabilities, that's not a problem of not having it, than a problem of they will never have the type of money China has. Another key difference between the Soviets and China.


All those that said don't invite China to RIMPAC? Do what you wish and all those that wishes for American involvement, careful you you wish for. Sometimes, it just may come true.

http://www.cfr.org/japan/strategy-us-japan-alliance/p28010

Could Americans learn more about Chinese capabilities?

Learning 'Chinese' capabilities is basically having the potential to check a Chinese version of 南進論 . The Americans know of this as it was an actual policy of Japan's during the 1920s, 1930s, and through the duration of the Great Pacific War.

So there is a sense of apprehension on their (US) part. And as a Japanese I can understand.


Nanshin-ron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Genesis]

http://www.cfr.org/japan/strategy-us-japan-alliance/p28010

Never mentioned Japan, Japan is not part of the SCS situation. If you just mean you will do patrols, that can be grouped together with the US, since Japan doesn't really offer anything the US won't be able to throw at us.

Learning 'Chinese' capabilities is basically having the potential to check a Chinese version of 南進論 . The Americans know of this as it was an actual policy of Japan's during the 1920s, 1930s, and through the duration of the Great Pacific War.

So there is a sense of apprehension on their (US) part. And as a Japanese I can understand.


Nanshin-ron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You conquered Sout East Asia, you actually think that's on the cards here. Also I wrote one sentence on America learning Chinese capabilities, pretty sure the rest of the post talked about something completely different.

 

[Aepsilons]

Never mentioned Japan, Japan is not part of the SCS situation. If you just mean you will do patrols, that can be grouped together with the US, since Japan doesn't really offer anything the US won't be able to throw at us.

No. You're not getting it, its the US Pacific Mandate --- which is seeing their redistribution of their Forward Deployed Marine Corp (Expeditionary) from say Japan to Guam, Marianas, Samoa, the Philippines, etc. It is what we refer to in the Navy as an "Chain Defense" , which revolves on intersecting arms, thus creating an unbroken command and control structure and response capability. Japanese deployment of her military forces into the southern islands such as Yonaguni Islands , Ishigaki Islands, Chichijima Islands, Osagawara Islands will ultimately strengthen this so called chain defense , practically creating a Western Pacific Defense Wall.


The JMSDF's 4th as well as 2nd Escort Fleets have a role to play in this, i assume.

You conquered Sout East Asia, you actually think that's on the cards here. Also I wrote one sentence on America learning Chinese capabilities, pretty sure the rest of the post talked about something completely different.

The threat perception is there, i would assume. I'm venturing to postulate that US chain defense is correlated to the fear of having a 'repeat' of Nanshin-ron. And btw, Japan did not just conquer Southeast Asia, that was just a minor part. Once the Philippines was taken, Japan steamrolled and conquered most of the Western and Central Pacific Islands. This is the very reason why the US PACOM is augmenting their Pacific assets as they don't want a repeat of Nanshin-ron.


Understand?

 

[Genesis]

No. You're not getting it, its the US Pacific Mandate --- which is seeing their redistribution of their Forward Deployed Marine Corp (Expeditionary) from say Japan to Guam, Marianas, Samoa, the Philippines, etc. It is what we refer to in the Navy as an "Chain Defense" , which revolves on intersecting arms, thus creating an unbroken command and control structure and response capability. Japanese deployment of her military forces into the southern islands such as Yonaguni Islands , Ishigaki Islands, Chichijima Islands, Osagawara Islands will ultimately strengthen this so called chain defense , practically creating a Western Pacific Defense Wall.


The JMSDF's 4th as well as 2nd Escort Fleets have a role to play in this, i assume.

So....? That was not the point of the post. The point is America thinks it can scare China into submission and it can't, all it will do is raise the urgency and give China practice in real situations, like the American and Soviet "games".

What does it matter where their forces are, and what does it matter if Japan participates or not.

The threat perception is there, i would assume. I'm venturing to postulate that US chain defense is correlated to the fear of having a 'repeat' of Nanshin-ron. And btw, Japan did not just conquer Southeast Asia, that was just a minor part. Once the Philippines was taken, Japan steamrolled and conquered most of the Western and Central Pacific Islands. This is the very reason why the US PACOM is augmenting their Pacific assets as they don't want a repeat of Nanshin-ron.


Understand?

How is this related to what I said. You also didn't mention if anyone with a sane mind thinks China is thinking of conquering all of South East Asia, why would we? So we can have a further couple of hundred millions of poor people, we got enough of that in our own land.

But the main thing is, why or how America is potentially going to go about this isn't that interesting to me. It doesn't change what it will do, what it's suppose to do.

 

[Aepsilons]

How is this related to what I said. You also didn't mention if anyone with a sane mind thinks China is thinking of conquering all of South East Asia, why would we? So we can have a further couple of hundred millions of poor people, we got enough of that in our own land.

In the military mind, my friend, its best to prepare for the worst possible scenario and then some.
Its like if i go to the club with some of my friends, i'm going to bring enough cash to buy drinks, get something to eat, but its always good to bring some extra stuff just in case i meet a girl , you know? maybe get her something to drink, go to a diner, voila. Same context in the military, prepare for any situation.

But the main thing is, why or how America is potentially going to go about this isn't that interesting to me. It doesn't change what it will do, what it's suppose to do.

That's the thing, it won't change what you will do, but it will prepare Americans in how to respond to a curve ball you might throw, know what i mean?

 

[Genesis]

In the military mind, my friend, its best to prepare for the worst possible scenario and then some.
Its like if i go to the club with some of my friends, i'm going to bring enough cash to buy drinks, get something to eat, but its always good to bring some extra stuff just in case i meet a girl , you know? maybe get her something to drink, go to a diner, voila. Same context in the military, prepare for any situation.

Prepare for what? The whole point of the post is that, this cat and mouse game between China and the US will prepare China for further challenges down the line.

As to how it's going to do that is not something I can comment on. As of right now, nobody has raised the possibility of an increasingly sophisticated PLA due to the exact same actions that are suppose to limit our effectiveness.

That's the thing, it won't change what you will do, but it will prepare Americans in how to respond to a curve ball you might throw, know what i mean?

We don't have any curve balls, Americans have done this before, they have the cash and they have the expertise. We still need 10-20 years to get the cash, and the expertise, unless freely offered, will be a long process.

What can Lebron James learn by playing me in Basketball? Probably not nothing, it's still practice, but I can learn far more.

The trade is not equal, we will get a front row seat in the American theater and in return, Americans can watch a one woman show on top of a bowling alley made possible by China.

Who's going to benefit more.

 

[Aepsilons]

We don't have any curve balls, Americans have done this before, they have the cash and they have the expertise. We still need 10-20 years to get the cash, and the expertise, unless freely offered, will be a long process.

What can Lebron James learn by playing me in Basketball? Probably not nothing, it's still practice, but I can learn far more.

The trade is not equal, we will get a front row seat in the American theater and in return, Americans can watch a one woman show on top of a bowling alley made possible by China.

Who's going to benefit more.

lol

Prepare for what? The whole point of the post is that, this cat and mouse game between China and the US will prepare China for further challenges down the line.

As to how it's going to do that is not something I can comment on. As of right now, nobody has raised the possibility of an increasingly sophisticated PLA due to the exact same actions that are suppose to limit our effectiveness.

Its all tit for tat, bro. Or is it tat for tit? Ah, i forget. The point is this, nations' military prepare for any possible case scenario. The Yanks prepare, we prepare, you prepare, heck even the Vatican prepares-- even the Swiss Guard.

The likelihood of actual military combat? Maybe nill. Maybe high. Preparation is key.

 

[Genesis]

Its all tit for tat, bro. Or is it tat for tit? Ah, i forget. The point is this, nations' military prepare for any possible case scenario. The Yanks prepare, we prepare, you prepare, heck even the Vatican prepares-- even the Swiss Guard.

The likelihood of actual military combat? Maybe nill. Maybe high. Preparation is key.

Yes, I never said war, but this is as close to real combat as we can, or even the Americans can to a worthy opponent. Preparations is key, but nothing like the real thing to get the juices pumping, and that's what the Americans are offering here.

Where else do you suppose China can get that type of exercise. Like the Diaoyu Islands, we scramble jets, you do the same, but you already did that with the Soviets, and now we are getting good practice here in a real life situation.

We can see where we did good, where we did bad, where we need improvement, and where we need to change.

My argument is the American/since you are here Japanese, presence and actions in these seas were suppose to scare us off, but instead it is really just upping the combat effectiveness of the PLA, to a level similar to the States.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

It is what we refer to in the Navy as an "Chain Defense" , which revolves on intersecting arms, thus creating an unbroken command and control structure and response capability. Japanese deployment of her military forces into the southern islands such as Yonaguni Islands , Ishigaki Islands, Chichijima Islands, Osagawara Islands will ultimately strengthen this so called chain defense , practically creating a Western Pacific Defense Wall.
....
This is the very reason why the US PACOM is augmenting their Pacific assets as they don't want a repeat of Nanshin-ron.
Understand?

I'm sure the U.S. and Japan are stringing next generation detection devices along the ocean floor between these islands as we speak.

I'm pretty sure it was done long ago in the East China Sea.

 

[Aepsilons]

I'm sure the U.S. and Japan are stringing next generation detection devices along the ocean floor between these islands as we speak.

I'm pretty sure it was done long ago in the East China Sea.

Hahahaha, it was being done even when i was in service, a decade ago. I can only imagine what's being done now...in this age.

Exciting times tho.


But seriously tho, having a JMSDF + USN combined force? No power on earth can survive our firepower.


Its just ridiculous how much firepower there is between the USN + JMSDF......


The PLAN would be totally annihilated. I can assure you that.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Hahahaha, it was being done even when i was in service, a decade ago. I can only imagine what's being done now...in this age.

Exciting times tho.


But seriously tho, having a JMSDF + USN combined force? No power on earth can survive our firepower.


Its just ridiculous how much firepower there is between the USN + JMSDF......


The PLAN would be totally annihilated. I can assure you that.

It's going to get far crazier when Article 9 is revoked.
Cruise missiles, UCAVs, and other offensive weapons.

 

[slng]

no one survive total nuclear all out war

~period

what made you think todays' gov risking this? it would be cat chasing its tail game, endless and self repeating

 

[Aepsilons]

It's going to get far crazier when Article 9 is revoked.
Cruise missiles, UCAVs, and other offensive weapons.

It's all happening so fast, just read the reports about 2017 Ammendments , that's just less than 2 years from now.

 

[Genesis]

Hahahaha, it was being done even when i was in service, a decade ago. I can only imagine what's being done now...in this age.

Exciting times tho.


But seriously tho, having a JMSDF + USN combined force? No power on earth can survive our firepower.


Its just ridiculous how much firepower there is between the USN + JMSDF......


The PLAN would be totally annihilated. I can assure you that.

I thought you said no wars, and now you come in with annihilated, really.

Since there would be no wars, China can easily practice against the best in the business, the US, with essentially no consequences.

Also just the USN is an invincible force, no need to add JMSDF into everything, 11 carrier groups + none is still 11. 50 something nuclear subs + none, is still 50 something nuclear subs.

I'm sure the U.S. and Japan are stringing next generation detection devices along the ocean floor between these islands as we speak.

I'm pretty sure it was done long ago in the East China Sea.

This has something to do with this particular topic, how?