America's Gift to China

[Hamartia Antidote]

What do you think America patrolling or even sending planes to our islands will accomplish? Will it stop construction? Will it delay it? Will America drop a bomb if it doesn't? Even if America flys over the islands and goes within 10 meters of the islands with a ship, what do you think that could accomplish?.

The US has probably been flying patrols over the SCS for the last 70 years. Long before you showed any interest in playing in the sand of some islands. So we aren't "accomplishing" anything new.

Look at this google of "p3 orion south china sea patrol" where I set the date from 1965 to 1990

p3 orion "south china sea" patrol - Google Search

 

[Genesis]

The US has probably been flying patrols over the SCS for the last 70 years. Long before you showed any interest in playing in the sand of some islands. So we aren't "accomplishing" anything new.

Look at this google of "p3 orion south china sea patrol" where I set the date from 1965 to 1990

p3 orion "south china sea" patrol - Google Search

Right after accomplish, I put the exact meaning behind what I meant by that, but obviously you ignore it.

As to this particularly informative post, I'll be sure to hire a couple of guys to scream at your US senators and generals about them being morons for calling for patrols when clearly they have always had it, in the exact same way and place that I, and them, are talking about in the post, and I'll use your post to prove it.

 

[Aepsilons]

What do you think America patrolling or even sending planes to our islands will accomplish? Will it stop construction? Will it delay it? Will America drop a bomb if it doesn't? Even if America flys over the islands and goes within 10 meters of the islands with a ship, what do you think that could accomplish?

Hi,

The United States sending in more and more of their naval units in the South China Sea is not in any ways attempting to cease Chinese activities on islands that the Chinese are already occupying. China's Government could care less what the United States has to say in regards to territory. What the United States is doing is to tap into the political economy of the region, what i mean is that she is attempting to cultivate greater defense partnerships (alignment) amongst the members including the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei. American patrol in the South China Seas (increased) is more or less a political statement to the Chinese. That she is willing to intervene if China is to fire the first shot or initiate a military campaign.

The United States is right now building and increase her own string of pearls, and they already include the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, with hopes of including Vietnam, and as well as Indonesia. Why? Because having said friendly ports and bases for operation can and will accomodate the United States' military industrial complex in case of a war, do read the island campaign (island hopping campaign) that the United States implemented when she was at war with the Japanese some 70 years ago, same strategy applies. Control the islands and home ports around the enemy, and one an draw the enemy to the area where you want to fight her.

What do you think of my theory that Americans, and JMSDF if it chooses to partake, playing cat and mouse games with PLAN in the SCS, would that improve the capabilities of the PLAN and allow us to see what some of our problems are and look for ways to improve them. This, especially considering the changes in our operations resulting from constant scrambles we enjoy now with you guys.

Definitely this entire situation is a capacity building opportunity for everyone, most especially the Chinese. China benefits because her Maritime Agency is gaining operational experience in how to interdict civilian vessels (fishing ships), government ships, as well as build on its interoperability with the PLAN when spotting naval vessels from foreign countries. It cultivates a culture of healthy inter-branch communication. Understand? Let's say a CMA vessel identifies a JMSDF Destroyer Squadron steaming through the South China Sea on route to Indonesia's Natuna Islands. The CMA vessel will hail the JMSDF Destroyer Squadron , and at the same time, will contact South Sea Fleet HQ to send a South See Fleet Destroyer Squadron to counter / trail the JMSDF Destroyer Squadron. The JMSDF Destroyer Squadron will then receive the PLAN hail , both identify each other, the PLAN requests the following:

"Japanese Warship #1, #2, this is PLAN Warship #1, you have entered maritime territory of the Peoples Republic of China. Please identify yourself , and your reason for being here."

JMSDF responds:

"This is Japanese Warship #1, #2, warship of the People's Republic of China, be advised that you are near the defense perimeter. We are en route to port #1, please be advised to stay clear of our perimeter."

PLAN responds:

"This is Chinese Warship #1, we recognize your request. Please be advised we will respect your request"


So you see , these provide stellar experience for training ships, and provide sailors with the opportunity to experience real life situations rather than text book cases.

What about the will to continue, do you think China will back down, do you think we will give up our claims(because of this), do you think this changes anything that will favor Philippines in a real sense like faster growth for Philippines, no growth for China, or stops China from trading, or crash Chinese market, or stops Chinese scientists from making breakthroughs, stops military industrial complex from making weapons, any thing substantial? That's not just words or temporary.

No. I do not think China will back down, as will any other country locked in territorial row in the SCS. But what will happen, most importantly, is that there will be increased naval patrol and presence of American as well as Japanese ships in the region, establishing of naval bases in the Philippines (which is the main goal of the Japanese and the Americans, as well as the Filipinos). Thus a win win scenario. The "China Threat" will be the basis for increased defense expenditures for the countries in the region; Indonesia will raise her defense spending, so will the Vietnamese, the Malaysians, the Filipinos, the Thais. Defense articulations will be authored.

 

[BoQ77]

The US has probably been flying patrols over the SCS for the last 70 years. Long before you showed any interest in playing in the sand of some islands. So we aren't "accomplishing" anything new.

Look at this google of "p3 orion south china sea patrol" where I set the date from 1965 to 1990

p3 orion "south china sea" patrol - Google Search

Vietnam Picks Up 3 Navy Fliers From Ditched Plane
July 16, 1988|United Press International

BANGKOK, Thailand — Three U.S. Navy fliers who ditched their disabled plane near the disputed Spratly Islands in the South China Sea have been picked up by Vietnamese naval forces, Radio Hanoi said Friday.

The fliers were identified as Lt. Richard K. Maurer, 30, of Harveys Lake, Pa., the pilot; Lt. (j.g.) Elizabeth Steinnecker, 29, of Tampa, Fla., the co-pilot; and Petty Officer 1st Class Michael R. Neel, 34, of Albuquerque, N.M.

A Vietnamese spokesman said the fliers were taken to Vietnam, but Navy officials in Washington could not confirm that.

A U.S. Embassy official in Bangkok, who asked not to be identified, said Vietnam is likely to return the three quickly. A U.S. government spokesman in Manila said, "Our presumption is that they will be returned."

"The Vietnamese people's naval forces have saved the three Americans on board the plane," Radio Hanoi said in a broadcast monitored in Bangkok. "The victims were given care and good treatment, and the Vietnamese government has informed the American government of this accident."

The radio quoted the American fliers as saying their plane malfunctioned during a flight from Singapore to Subic Bay Naval Base in the Philippines.

Nguyen Van Quan, a spokesman for the Vietnamese Embassy in Bangkok, said that Vietnamese Ambassador Le Mai informed U.S. Ambassador William Brown on Friday morning that Vietnam had rescued the fliers and was treating them "very kindly."

"The latest report said they (the three crew members) have been brought to the mainland safe and sound and have been given very good care," Quan said. He said he did not know exactly where the Americans were in Vietnam.

State Department spokeswoman Phyllis Oakley said, "We appreciate the humanitarian assistance rendered in this situation by Vietnamese government officials, their rapid action in rescuing the crew and their cooperation in facilitating the interim care and safe return of the crew members."

Asked what Hanoi intends to do with the crew, she said, "It is our view that they are arranging for the crew's rapid return and discussions are under way in this regard in Bangkok."

The Navy fliers were forced to ditch their CT-39E light transport Tuesday afternoon when their navigational instruments failed and the plane ran out of fuel, a Navy spokesman in Manila said. All three fliers are assigned to Fleet Logistics Support Squadron 50 at Cubi Point, the naval air station adjoining Subic Bay.

An intensive search for them was concentrated in the southern part of the South China Sea near the Spratly Islands where China and Vietnam fought a sea battle in March. Both countries claim the islands, which are also claimed by Taiwan, Malaysia and the Philippines.

------------


3 U.S. Fliers Rescued by Vietnam Return to Their Philippine Base
July 20, 1988|From Times Wire Services
SUBIC BAY NAVAL BASE, Philippines — Three U.S. Navy fliers rescued by a Vietnamese ship after ditching their plane in the South China Sea returned to their home base Tuesday and thanked the Vietnamese for saving them.

"We'd like to thank the Vietnamese navy for pulling us out of the sea and the Vietnamese government for their courtesy and hospitality," said Lt. Richard K. Maurer, 30, of Harveys Lake, Pa.

"They treated us very well. They were very concerned for our safety," said Maurer, the pilot, who was flying with Lt. (j.g.) Elizabeth A. Steinnecker, 29, of Tampa, Fla., and Petty Officer 1st Class Michael R. Neel, 34, of Albuquerque, N.M.

"I feel fabulous," Steinnecker said after embracing her husband, Lt. Christopher Steinnecker. The wife, who is three months pregnant, was co-pilot of the CT-39E twin-engine transport plane.

U.S. officials said the three were flying from Singapore back to Subic Bay Naval Base, northwest of Manila, on July 12 when their navigational equipment failed. With only a little fuel left, they made a "controlled landing" in the sea near the Spratly Islands.

The plane sank, but the Americans were rescued by a Vietnamese navy vessel and taken to Vietnam. They were turned over to U.S. officials in Ho Chi Minh City, and flown to Bangkok, Thailand, an embassy spokesman said.

 

[Genesis]

Hi,

The United States sending in more and more of their naval units in the South China Sea is not in any ways attempting to cease Chinese activities on islands that the Chinese are already occupying. China's Government could care less what the United States has to say in regards to territory. What the United States is doing is to tap into the political economy of the region, what i mean is that she is attempting to cultivate greater defense partnerships (alignment) amongst the members including the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei. American patrol in the South China Seas (increased) is more or less a political statement to the Chinese. That she is willing to intervene if China is to fire the first shot or initiate a military campaign.

The United States is right now building and increase her own string of pearls, and they already include the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, with hopes of including Vietnam, and as well as Indonesia. Why? Because having said friendly ports and bases for operation can and will accomodate the United States' military industrial complex in case of a war, do read the island campaign (island hopping campaign) that the United States implemented when she was at war with the Japanese some 70 years ago, same strategy applies. Control the islands and home ports around the enemy, and one an draw the enemy to the area where you want to fight her.

China's island building will ensure China will be in possession of over 80% of all land mass in the South China Sea, and certainly one with all the best facilities, or any facilities. So I think stopping this would be in America's best interest. BTW, all the morons that says a typhoon can destroy these islands, I too wondered, but then my dad told me as long as you account for it, it's rather easy to build a lasting island. He should know.

I do agree America is trying to get more allies and good will, and that is one of the down sides of this for China, it is however an necessary evil at this point for us. US making sure China won't fire the first shot is not a good motive, with our massive advantage, it be foolish to fire first.

America's island hopping campaign is not a good comparison, because China isn't Japan, we are so much bigger, and for the simple fact we are not at war, so America can do nothing that can actually cut off Chinese supplies, unless she's willing to fire the first shot.

China is also directly has territory in SCS, the islands I'm talking about, those are the best facilities in SEA, and I doubt we'll give them up to the US.

Definitely this entire situation is a capacity building opportunity for everyone, most especially the Chinese. China benefits because her Maritime Agency is gaining operational experience in how to interdict civilian vessels (fishing ships), government ships, as well as build on its interoperability with the PLAN when spotting naval vessels from foreign countries. It cultivates a culture of healthy inter-branch communication. Understand? Let's say a CMA vessel identifies a JMSDF Destroyer Squadron steaming through the South China Sea on route to Indonesia's Natuna Islands. The CMA vessel will hail the JMSDF Destroyer Squadron , and at the same time, will contact South Sea Fleet HQ to send a South See Fleet Destroyer Squadron to counter / trail the JMSDF Destroyer Squadron. The JMSDF Destroyer Squadron will then receive the PLAN hail , both identify each other, the PLAN requests the following:

"Japanese Warship #1, #2, this is PLAN Warship #1, you have entered maritime territory of the Peoples Republic of China. Please identify yourself , and your reason for being here."

JMSDF responds:

"This is Japanese Warship #1, #2, warship of the People's Republic of China, be advised that you are near the defense perimeter. We are en route to port #1, please be advised to stay clear of our perimeter."

PLAN responds:

"This is Chinese Warship #1, we recognize your request. Please be advised we will respect your request"


So you see , these provide stellar experience for training ships, and provide sailors with the opportunity to experience real life situations rather than text book cases.

We agree on this point then, I would also go as far as to say this increase Chinese capability in fleet maintenance and distribution of duty to make sure there are enough ships to always be on guard, and how many ships to be training, and how many can have the day off, even just know how many ships are enough is a huge gain.

To have the experience to know what kind of ship, and how many are required for any required situation, and actually have them ready, I believe is better than some order from up top to do this and that.

Real situations always trumps some pretend crap, where we both know what's actually happening which is nothing.

No. I do not think China will back down, as will any other country locked in territorial row in the SCS. But what will happen, most importantly, is that there will be increased naval patrol and presence of American as well as Japanese ships in the region, establishing of naval bases in the Philippines (which is the main goal of the Japanese and the Americans, as well as the Filipinos). Thus a win win scenario. The "China Threat" will be the basis for increased defense expenditures for the countries in the region; Indonesia will raise her defense spending, so will the Vietnamese, the Malaysians, the Filipinos, the Thais. Defense articulations will be authored.

China already has a bigger GDP than Japan + ASEAN, with each passing year, the gap will only increase, so increase military expenditure is really not that freighting, considering who we are talking about.

As I have said previously the difference between US + Japan, if we must, isn't a few ports, and if we get pass it, having a few ports isn't going to be the difference, if we can't, no port still isn't going to be the difference.

 

[xunzi]

This game of chicken to see who blink first is getting old. The US will form the so called string of allied but just a bunch of Banana Jungle. Their usefulness is being able to allow the US to station more troops in a war with us. We already anticipate the US will play this game. At the end of the day, as our capabilities increase and our lethal weapons become more deadly, there is nothing for us to be worry. When the US brings war to us, we should accept with an open arm and ready to fight them to the end. Even if we might lose, we have to cripple the US power as much as possible and make sure they don't live to be a hegemon.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Right after accomplish, I put the exact meaning behind what I meant by that, but obviously you ignore it.

The U.S. Is not particularly interested in flying over this island thing you are building. We are only interested in flying the same route we have been doing for the last 70 years.

What makes you think we have an interest in flying over some island of yours?? Why would we do that?

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Hahahaha, it was being done even when i was in service, a decade ago. I can only imagine what's being done now...in this age.

Exciting times tho.

But seriously tho, having a JMSDF + USN combined force? No power on earth can survive our firepower.

Its just ridiculous how much firepower there is between the USN + JMSDF......

The PLAN would be totally annihilated. I can assure you that.

LMAO, again you're bragging about JMSDF +USN, you think we gonna easily let you fullfill your sweep dream. When knowing Japan itself is a time bomb, if China decide to awake your Japaneses nightmare by ignite prematurely your Fuji mountains and other critical sismic area of Japan, you praise that Japan will not annihaled as consequence.
I promise not to bring us the tectonic bomb which I got banned once because people think that's too cruel but you Japanese need to seriously think that Japan's fragile geographical situation which is unique of this world that we can well exploite, don't talk like Japan is beyond our reach or invincible that there is no loop hole....you think Americans gonna come to save Japanese from the doom day?

 

[BoQ77]

China has not any reef before 1988, they killed someone to get reefs and appear in Spratlys for the first time in Jan 1988.
What could stop the American to do the same to get the control of some reefs in Spratlys ?

 

[Genesis]

The U.S. Is not particularly interested in flying over this island thing you are building. We are only interested in flying the same route we have been doing for the last 70 years.

What makes you think we have an interest in flying over some island of yours?? Why would we do that?

U.S. Military Proposes Challenge to China Sea Claims - WSJ

it's very hard to say, maybe it's because I'm paranoid, maybe it's because I'm looking for drama, maybe it's becaause US actually said they would directly contest our islands in SCS.

"Defense Secretary Ash Carter has asked his staff to look at options that include flying Navy surveillance aircraft over the islands and sending U.S. naval ships to within 12 nautical miles of reefs that have been built up and claimed by the Chinese in an area known as the Spratly Islands."

"The U.S. military is considering using aircraft and Navy ships to directly contest Chinese territorial claims to a chain of rapidly expanding artificial islands, U.S. officials said, in a move that would raise the stakes in a regional showdown over who controls disputed waters in the South China Sea."

very difficult to say.

 

[xunzi]

If there is anything that is taught to us in WWII is that those with the most industrial power will have an advantage in a war. This is why I wonder the industrial power of US+Japan vs China. I'm talking about us alone and without Russia. As we know if Russia is on our side in the war, then our chance will increase ten fold. Russia energy + industrial power + manpower, who can defeat us together? The only way to defeat a China+Russia is total destruction by no convention warfare can establish a winner. Both sides will junk out weapon after weapon and the war will continue until one side decided to end the long drag out war with nuke. I'm confident that side will be the US as they are richer and more prosperous and thus the people will not tolerate a long drag out war compare the poorer of China+Russia whose people have lesser to lose.

 

[Aepsilons]

China's island building will ensure China will be in possession of over 80% of all land mass in the South China Sea, and certainly one with all the best facilities, or any facilities. So I think stopping this would be in America's best interest. BTW, all the morons that says a typhoon can destroy these islands, I too wondered, but then my dad told me as long as you account for it, it's rather easy to build a lasting island. He should know.

I do agree America is trying to get more allies and good will, and that is one of the down sides of this for China, it is however an necessary evil at this point for us. US making sure China won't fire the first shot is not a good motive, with our massive advantage, it be foolish to fire first.

America's island hopping campaign is not a good comparison, because China isn't Japan, we are so much bigger, and for the simple fact we are not at war, so America can do nothing that can actually cut off Chinese supplies, unless she's willing to fire the first shot.

China is also directly has territory in SCS, the islands I'm talking about, those are the best facilities in SEA, and I doubt we'll give them up to the US.

No doubt the Chinese have made impressive leaps and bounds in their island genesis programs, very impressive if i say so myself. I doubt the United States will fire the "first shot", usually they are a reactionary power, and will calculate the costs and benefits to any situation. It all comes down to : Will China fire the first shot ? If no, then great. If yes, then, well, you know.

We agree on this point then, I would also go as far as to say this increase Chinese capability in fleet maintenance and distribution of duty to make sure there are enough ships to always be on guard, and how many ships to be training, and how many can have the day off, even just know how many ships are enough is a huge gain.

To have the experience to know what kind of ship, and how many are required for any required situation, and actually have them ready, I believe is better than some order from up top to do this and that.

Real situations always trumps some pretend crap, where we both know what's actually happening which is nothing.

Practice makes perfect, Gen. Practice makes perfect. I'm sure the PLAN will tap into this potential.

China already has a bigger GDP than Japan + ASEAN, with each passing year, the gap will only increase, so increase military expenditure is really not that freighting, considering who we are talking about.

As I have said previously the difference between US + Japan, if we must, isn't a few ports, and if we get pass it, having a few ports isn't going to be the difference, if we can't, no port still isn't going to be the difference.

You need to study the Japanese-American Chain Defense.

Examine the Islands in the Western Pacific as well as Eastern Pacific.

Ideally, to "break" the American Power, you have to break America's control of the islands in the Western , Central Pacific. This requires you to :

1) engage the combined 7th Fleet and take it out quickly
2) occupation of vital US defense assets ergo, Guam, Palau, Marianas, Tinian, Samoa, Caroline Islands.

Completing task #1 will be the hardest one. And note that the USN has 6 other Fleets. The PLAN needs to address all possible points.

Completing task #2 cannot be done unless you lay waste the US 7th Fleet. The US Pacific Fleet is a devil , she will engage in assymetric combat, and she has a voracious appetite and experience in this. I will say that.

LMAO, again you're bragging about JMSDF +USN, you think we gonna easily let you fullfill your sweep dream. When knowing Japan itself is a time bomb, if China decide to awake your Japaneses nightmare by ignite prematurely your Fuji mountains and other critical sismic area of Japan, you praise that Japan will not annihaled as consequence.
I promise not to bring us the tectonic bomb which I got banned once because people think that's too cruel but you Japanese need to seriously think that Japan's fragile geographical situation which is unique of this world that we can well exploite, don't talk like Japan is beyond our reach or invincible that there is no loop hole....you think Americans gonna come to save Japanese from the doom day?

lol, think pragmatically. how can we debate when you respond to reading my post by going gung ho mode on me?

Calm down. Sit down with me, eyes to eyes, face to face, lets discuss without "nuke this, neutron that" lol.

Dont you want to explore the strategy aspect? Look at how Genesis and I are discussing...we differ but look at how much wealth of information we're sharing with each other. He's pragmatic, creative, yet brutally loyal to China. Now that's a true Han.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Chinese Navy buildup leads to more interest in the SCS by Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, the US and others.

Chinese Navy buildup leads to Japan revoking Article 9.

Japan revoking Article 9 leads will lead to the US moving to the outer islands to make room for Japan's expanding military. Japan then takes a more active role in the SCS.

Japan can revoking any article it wants, you really think we Chinese are the only loser, a good obedience Japan is American's interest but when Japan become a master on it own, you Americans will have eventually to face double Challenge: China and Japan, there is no permanent enemies but only permanent interest. It will become a fiasco for US if Japan acquire the nukes and aim as well as China and US, remember you still own Japan two nukes.

for us as Chinese, a crise = opportunity, what seem bad for China can also be good if we know how to exploite the situation.

 

[xunzi]

No doubt the Chinese have made impressive leaps and bounds in their island genesis programs, very impressive if i say so myself. I doubt the United States will fire the "first shot", usually they are a reactionary power, and will calculate the costs and benefits to any situation. It all comes down to : Will China fire the first shot ? If no, then great. If yes, then, well, you know.

The US is a reactionary power, my ***. Tell that to the people of Iraq and see if they agree with you. LOL The US practically brought war to them, strong-arm them, and forced them to kneel on their knee. LOL There is one thousand reasons the US can justify making a war without firing a shot. Making a war is very easy, my friend. What stop the US from creating a war with China is the fear of losing their hegemony in the aftermath.

 

[Aepsilons]

Japan can revoking any article it wants, you really think we Chinese are the only loser, a good obedience Japan is American's interest but when Japan become a master on it own, you Americans will have eventually to face double Challenge: China and Japan, there is no permanent enemies but only permanent interest. It will become a fiasco for US if Japan acquire the nukes and aim as well as China and US, remember you still own Japan two nukes.

for us as Chinese, a crise = opportunity, what seem bad for China can also be good if we know how to exploite the situation.

LOL! Oh you are very calculating...! Are you trying to make our American friends doubt Japanese intentions?!

Bad!