American documentary about Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1958)

[Zulkarneyn]

How would you feel if Kaaba was turned into a Church by invaders? That man atleast turned Hagia Sophia into a Museum rather than a Church as it was...

For people just like you Neyzen Teffik wrote a beuatiful poem...

What are you to doing between me and God?

Who are you to ask me about my fast-Oruc

If you really don't want aything to do with Haram

Why are you asking scraf to open headed


Why does it interest you that I dring wine and raki

If I don't do any harm to you, I will drink

If two of us come to bridge of hair-sırat bridge- If I am honest, I would cross it even if I am drunk

Was it possible to pray when being prisoner

Every waking hour thank Atatürk

Because of the people like you

People will draw away from religion

Don't forget the stuation at times of occupation

Don't attack Atatürk without reason...

I cencored the poems colurfull language and two last part is all about insulting, so I am not going to write it... But ungrateful people like you really pisses me of.

Instead of copy-pasting a poem why don't you add relevant material that can be constructive? I am grateful for the war of independence and his command-ship as i have written before. But i am definitely not grateful for specific policies such as secularism, Hagia Sophia, and Azan issue.

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

i still cant understand people defending AKP

 

[RedBeard]

We are already cleaning the country of corruption and Zionists.

LOL, cleaning zionists from the country just lol, the same folks who wanted to hire out big lands for a absurd 50 years period of time, at Syrian border to Israelis under pretext of cleaning minefields, and this right after davos theatre!

 

[Cerian]

it was NOT AKP who founded and builded the country from scratch, with all its institutions and, laws, economy, ideology etc. AKP just came to rule the country which already was there with its hardworking people and succesfull systems. Don't forget that it was Ataturk who started all of this, now to critisice it is easy since u didnt have to suffer and got all of it for free.

I agree and don't agree. A agree that AKP didn't create institutions, laws,ideology,economy system. But I disagree that Ataturk started all of the things that you mentioned. If you look at Turkish institutions you would see that all of them are successors to Ottoman institutions. These institutions are the product of centuries old evolution; like Suleiman, Mahmut II., Abdulaziz, Ataturk, and modern Republic politicians, that helped and progressed the evolution of state institutions.

 

[Deno]

Instead of copy-pasting a poem why don't you add relevant material that can be constructive? I am grateful for the war of independence and his command-ship as i have written before. But i am definitely not grateful for specific policies such as secularism, Hagia Sophia, and Azan issue.

1) I did not copy past it, I tried to translate it myself...

2) Being against secularism is like saying a woman that I have nothing against you, I just want you to shut the muck up go to the kitchen or bear me a child...

3) Hagia Sophia was a Church to begin with. How would you feel that an invader turned Kaaba into a Church? Atleast he made it into a museum as a symbol of naturalism of state...

4) Majority of the people don't know a word of Arabic and do not understand Azan... They only know that it is time of Namaz...

 

[Zulkarneyn]

For some people history starts and ends with Kemal. There was nothing before him in Turkey and nothing came after him in Turkey. That is what i call total indoctrination without any sense of historical context or criticism.

Edit:
1) The Mosque of Cordoba which was built by the Emevis is today a Church and even praying 2 raka is strictly forbidden there. Its sole function is worship for christians. After the Spaniards reconquered Spain they massacred Muslims, Burned all the mosques except the Mosque of Cordoba because it was too beautiful and big, and later they forcefully converted the Muslims. They are doing this intentionally as a symbol to show their religion. But we can't do it even though Hagia Sophia has remained a Mosque since 1453 until CHP by Mustafa Kemals command turned it into a museum.

2) Why is being against secularism total evil in your eyes? Eveery single European country except France is non-secular and has a state religion, you automatically pay for the church. I don't know what type of propoganda you have recieved but most European countries respect their women and they are equal with men.

3) If you followed Islam closely you would know the importance of reading the Quran and Prayers in its original language as our prophet spoke. Again turning the Azan into Turkish was an intentional policy as well. No doubt about that.

 

[Deno]

I agree and don't agree. A agree that AKP didn't create institutions, laws,ideology,economy system. But I disagree that Ataturk started all of the things that you mentioned. If you look at Turkish institutions you would see that all of them are successors to Ottoman institutions. These institutions are the product of centuries old evolution; like Suleiman, Mahmut II., Abdulaziz, Ataturk, and modern Republic politicians, that helped and progressed the evolution of state institutions.

Modern Turkish institutions are nearly the exact copy of the French institutions... Ataturk was inspired by the French revolution... There is nearly nothing from Ottoman times...

I respect AKP and voted for it. Erdogan is in third place where I listed politicians... Mustafa Kemal, Erdal Inonu, Erdogan... Erdogan only needed to be more honest than after Ataturk politicains... and he did it. Thats why Turkey is in the place where it is now. Look at the man, He aged 20 years in his 10 years prime ministery...

 

[Cerian]

Modern Turkish institutions are nearly the exact copy of the French institutions... Ataturk was inspired by the French revolution... There is nearly nothing from Ottoman times...

We know from historical texts that in the time of Mahmud II., people accused him of being a European, some accused him as Christian, because he was doing reformations in the state institutions that were completely different than society accustomed to. There is no good Turkish-Ottoman historian that would deny succession of institutions from Ottoman to Republican era.

 

[Deno]

Zulkarneyn

Oh and Zulkarneyn... In times of Ataturk this country was building rail road all over the country, This country was one of the largest economy of the Europe, this country was producing both civil and military airplanes, the country was producing both civil and military warships, this country was fastest growing economy of its time, pruding its of rifles, bulding its every needs by itself. Not like our times with 100billion $ trade deficit...

Compering to that time and now, we still need to improve a lot before saying that we are more than them... I accept than AKP did a lot for this country but they haven done what Ataturk did and I believe they will be able to do that in economicly but they can never reach it in social status...

---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

We know from historical texts that in the time of Mahmud II., people accused him of being a European, some accused him as Christian, because he was doing reformations in the state institutions that were completely different than society. There is no good Turkish-Ottoman historian that would deny succession of institutions from Ottoman to Republican era.

I don't deny it. Why would I deny the our greatest and long lived empire, one of the greatest and long lived of all times... That would be denying my own self... But with every reformists down those reforms for the most part was demolished

 

[RedBeard]

For some people history starts and ends with Kemal. There was nothing before him in Turkey and nothing came after him in Turkey. That is what i call total indoctrination without any sense of historical context or criticism.

Edit:
1) The Mosque of Cordoba which was built by the Emevis is today a Church and even praying 2 raka is strictly forbidden there. Its sole function is worship for christians. After the Spaniards reconquered Spain they massacred Muslims, Burned all the mosques except the Mosque of Cordoba because it was too beautiful and big, and later they forcefully converted the Muslims. They are doing this intentionally as a symbol to show their religion. But we can't do it even though Hagia Sophia has remained a Mosque since 1453 until CHP by Mustafa Kemals command turned it into a museum.

2) Why is being against secularism total evil in your eyes? Eveery single European country except France is non-secular and has a state religion, you automatically pay for the church. I don't know what type of propoganda you have recieved but most European countries respect their women and they are equal with men.

3) If you followed Islam closely you would know the importance of reading the Quran and Prayers in its original language as our prophet spoke. Again turning the Azan into Turkish was an intentional policy as well. No doubt about that.

And for other people history starts with ottomans, there was nothing before them and nothing after them and bla bla bla..

Turkish history is great it doesnt start with Ottoman.

 

[Deno]

For some people history starts and ends with Kemal. There was nothing before him in Turkey and nothing came after him in Turkey. That is what i call total indoctrination without any sense of historical context or criticism.

Edit:
1) The Mosque of Cordoba which was built by the Emevis is today a Church and even praying 2 raka is strictly forbidden there. Its sole function is worship for christians. After the Spaniards reconquered Spain they massacred Muslims, Burned all the mosques except the Mosque of Cordoba because it was too beautiful and big, and later they forcefully converted the Muslims. They are doing this intentionally as a symbol to show their religion. But we can't do it even though Hagia Sophia has remained a Mosque since 1453 until CHP by Mustafa Kemals command turned it into a museum.

2) Why is being against secularism total evil in your eyes? Eveery single European country except France is non-secular and has a state religion, you automatically pay for the church. I don't know what type of propoganda you have recieved but most European countries respect their women and they are equal with men.

3) If you followed Islam closely you would know the importance of reading the Quran and Prayers in its original language as our prophet spoke. Again turning the Azan into Turkish was an intentional policy as well. No doubt about that.

1) Mosque of Cordoba was a chatedral andt was turned into a mosque after conquest of Spain. Its magnificent and beuty comes from muslims but it was a chatedral before it was a mosque. We are paying for religion trough our taxes as well. Do you know ehre Imams salary, their houses, electricty, warming and water bills payed from?

2) Every single European state is secular they are just not laic... Turkey and the France is the only laic countries of the planet. Do you think that our maturity with freedom and equality of people is mature enough to withstand a formal state religion?

Forgot to add this part: 3) I stated afact that majority don't know Arabic and no dot understand whats written in Quran and Azan. Turkish Azan was a political and a social move but it had social gains too. There are confusions in translations for Quran from translations and I support that Quran should study Arabic but Azan don't have that problem

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Oh and Zulkarneyn... In times of Ataturk this country was building rail road all over the country, This country was one of the largest economy of the Europe, this country was producing both civil and military airplanes, the country was producing both civil and military warships, this country was fastest growing economy of its time, pruding its of rifles, bulding its every needs by itself. Not like our times with 100billion $ trade deficit...

Compering to that time and now, we still need to improve a lot before saying that we are more than them... I accept than AKP did a lot for this country but they haven done what Ataturk did and I believe they will be able to do that in economicly but they can never reach it in social status...

---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------



I don't deny it. Why would I deny the our greatest and long lived empire, one of the greatest and long lived of all times... That would be denying my own self... But with every reformists down those reforms for the most part was demolished

Look Deno, you seem like a reasonable person who can be taken seriously. As i have written countless of times, Ataturk did indeed good things for the country. But discrediting all the other Commanders and soldiers in the war of independence, furthermore claiming that every single institution had been initiated by him is just not true. Ottoman Empire and its rulers did many reforms to better the Empire, herein the Tanzimat (which was made to increase civil liberties to its population and restrict the growing ultra-nationalism by certain groups herein the Armenians, Greeks etc) by Mahmud II (1808) and the Millet system which refers to the separate legal courts pertaining to "personal law" under which communities (Muslim Sharia, Christian Canon law and Jewish Halakha law abiding) were allowed to rule themselves under their own system. Even Ataturk was educated in the schools established during the Tanzimat period. The dissatisfaction regarding Mustafa Kemal is regarding certain of his implemenatations (secularism etc). A nation that is very emotional about its faith and completely turning or trying to turn it around to make it more secular and less religious. This just does not make much sense and naturally created a lot of hatred among conservatives. You can't just dismiss an idea or movement because it is wrong according to your belief. You have to examine it much closer for it to become clearer to your mind, about its inception. Coming to contemporary Turkey. People have exaggerated Kemalism in a degree that free ideas ad constructive criticism has become impossible. People are literally forced to love him. You cant insert a feeling to people, it is impossible. Ideas come and go but what remains is dissatisisfaction for some citizens in Turkey because of policies by some politicians who restrict them.

Edit: about the mosque of Cordoba. There was initally a church where the mosque today stands, but it was a very small one compare to today's cathedtral. muslims Build a very big Mosque just next to it and it became a place of worship for both Muslims and Christians during Muslim rule in Spain. Hence, the biggest part was made by muslims, which is almost 80 percent of todays Church.

 

[Deno]

Look Deno, you seem like a reasonable person who can be taken seriously. As i have written countless of times, Ataturk did indeed good things for the country. But discrediting all the other Commanders and soldiers in the war of independence, furthermore claiming that every single institution had been initiated by him is just not true. Ottoman Empire and its rulers did many reforms to better the Empire, herein the Tanzimat (which was made to increase civil liberties to its population and restrict the growing ultra-nationalism by certain groups herein the Armenians, Greeks etc) by Mahmud II (1808) and the Millet system which refers to the separate legal courts pertaining to "personal law" under which communities (Muslim Sharia, Christian Canon law and Jewish Halakha law abiding) were allowed to rule themselves under their own system. Even Ataturk was educated in the schools established during the Tanzimat period. The dissatisfaction regarding Mustafa Kemal is regarding certain of his implemenatations (secularism etc). A nation that is very emotional about its faith and completely turning or trying to turn it around to make it more secular and less religious. This just does not make much sense and naturally created a lot of hatred among conservatives. You can't just dismiss an idea or movement because it is wrong according to your belief. You have to examine it much closer for it to become clearer to your mind, about its inception. Coming to contemporary Turkey. People have exaggerated Kemalism in a degree that free ideas ad constructive criticism has become impossible. People are literally forced to love him. You cant insert a feeling to people, it is impossible. Ideas come and go but what remains is dissatisisfaction for some citizens in Turkey because of policies by some politicians who restrict them.

Let me explain myself to you...

I have never seen you insult Mustafa Kemal expect the time that you said Turkey was used by foreign countries because of Mustafa Kemal's ideolgy... That man literally sacrificed his nearly every second for more two decades of his life to this countries developments and peoples wellfare and accuisng others misusning of his ideoligies as his own fault is wrong. Thats what I am against.

Ofcourse I know Mustafa Kemals wrong doings... I have never stated otherwise. Eventually he is just an mortal man with a lot of personal problems which are based on his scarsfrom his childhood. I really advise you to watch Mustafa by Can Dündan. It is propably the only objective documantry about him...

Look what religion based states are now... Look at Iran nearly half of his population is obressed because of their want of secular life style... States that are based on religions obress people. It is a fact. A religious person can live his religion in a free society like Netherlands -some blonde Hitler wanna be tries to change that but he doesn't have enough power and never will be-. But I ask you can a secular person can live his life like he wants to in a religion based state like Iran? I am student at EMU/DAÜ I see every year how Iranians are happy to come Cyprus and how they are sad to leave it. How they battle with themselves to leave their homeland for freedom or stay with their family and history under opressive state.

I am against state religion because not that I don't want my country to become Islamic, it is about a state must be objective to all of its citizens and can it be while it is based or member of a one religion? My father was a muslim, my mother was a muslim, my grandparents were muslim, my brother is a muslim. Why would I want them to be opressed. I just want to be not to opressed in a land my forefathers died for... Islamic state will opress me and I do not want it. People can live their religion under our laws easily but a secular person cannot live under Islamic/or religious state without being opressed.

Edit: Did you know that Mustafa Kemal was propably one of the the lonliest leader ever lived. His greatest wish was to live with his adoptive daugters in a small home with a room with furnace in forests of Rumeli. he could easily have it after war but He stayed and devoted his life to this country.

 

[Armstrong]

Sorry for butting in like this, I'm not a Turk, so feel free to tell me to f**k off. But going through this thread where Secularism is pitted against Islam, made me think of something :

We've been told that religious pluralism, liberalism, impartiality, women's emancipation and democracy are the boons of a secular system. Now my question is : that could it be that its not the religiosity or the secularity of a political system that guaranties the presence of the aforementioned golden principles but rather how important they are perceived to be in the collective consciousness of the people.

Secondly, if a said religion had an opinion on economics, law, societal interaction and politics, could an adherent of that religion successfully disassociate one's self from the effects of that religion in a legislating capacity ? Or would a certain degree of secularity in ones private and personal life be a prerequisite ?

Additionally, how would you differentiate a pluralistic society from a secular one ? In my readings on how an egalitarian, pluralistic society ought to be, the example of the earlier periods of the Turkish Millet system and the system in Al-Andalus, was often exemplified as what a pluralistic, egalitarian society hundreds of years ago could have been.

As such - Is it possible that if our collective conscious embraces modernity and religious pluralism, a country with a state religion can still be modern and plural or is religion always going to be used as an opium for the masses ? In such a circumstance could we actually be deflecting the real issue here - not religion but its abuse ? Its the lack of justice that precipitates the injustices and that religion is just an intensifier, a focal point if you will ? Could in such a circumstance, critical education and a strengthening of the legal system and not the ostracization of religion, be the correct answer. I mean, Israel is a self proclaimed Jewish Democratic State, where there is an implied bias towards jews and judaism, and yet, at least, theoretically, they are bound to be modern, democratic and pluralistic, and as far as the Jewish people are concerned - they are.

 

[forummurat]

In times of Ataturk this country was building rail road all over the country, This country was one of the largest economy of the Europe

I suppose you meant the rail roads of Sultan Abdulhamid..
It was built in the childhood of M.Kemal in the time of Sultan Abdulhamid from Balkans to Palestine and Hejaz..
And all Anatolia..
But later Turkey was the poorest and militarist country (or dictatorship) of the world in the time of M.Kemal..
Bread was rationed in 1942, 5 years after the death of M.Kemal in the time of first man of Ataturk (ismet inönü)
That is Ataturk bequeathed us such a rich country..

The Bread Plug as most big scientific invention of Kemalist Regime