'Allah' for Muslims only: Malaysia's top court

[Developereo]

I have explained this is extreme detail

You keep digging a hole for yourself. Catholics are a subset of Christians.

For you to claim they are not Christians is not a mater of personal opinion. it is bigotry plain and simple.

Provide evidence for you discriminating against Christianity? Are you being sarcastic? Almost every single one of your posts in this thread are supporting discrimination against Christians. And it's not only me with this viewpoint many other people here agree that this is discrimination.

More desperate ramblings from you.

I am against fraudulent practices by anyone. In this case, it happens to be Christian missionaries. There are others, including Christian scholars familiar with the tactics of missionaries, who agree with me.

It is only people like you who refuse to accept that Christian missionaries are engaging in misconduct. You keep finding excuses for their misconduct, you keep rejecting the reports by other because they are "Catholic", you keep living in denial that their actions precipitated this ruling.

You have argued yourself into a corner by your denials, and now you keep digging a hole for yourself by spouting bigotry against Catholics to salvage your state of denial.

I can make the same argument for Jesus, the Christian concept of Jesus is different from the Muslim concept of Jesus. Yet this does not stop Muslims from talking about Jesus to Christians, it does not stop Muslims from calling Isa Jesus.

And I showed you why your clueless argument is invalid. Jesus as an individual is legitimate in both Islam and Christianity.

It is only if Muslim missionaries claimed allegiance to the Trinity, or claiming Jesus to be the Son of God, that their tactics would become fraudulent.

I am enjoying your desperate flailing, going back and forth and back-peddling, when your illogical point doesn't stand.

ts for your personal preferences when it comes to Christians using 'allah', how ironic. I stated i have no problem with Muslims talking about the trinity when talking to Christians after you mentioned the trinity and how it would be deceitful for Muslims to speak about it when talking to Christians. I'm not insecure for this to bother me.

It is not about my personal preference and nobody gives a damn about your securities.

It is the opinion of theologians and people who are familiar with the history of misconduct by Christian missionaries that the missionaries are using deceptive means.

Words matter because words have meanings.

YOU may be fine with people misusing words to deceive people, but it doesn't mean the world has to be as careless as you are.

i made one spelling mistake

You did NOT make a spelling mistake. You made a deliberately false claim about Dr. Reynolds, saying that critics of missionaries agreed with your position. They do not. Only apologists for missionaries agree with you.

 

[gambit]

I am not debating the right to proselytize; I am specifically talking about the deceptive tactics used by missionaries to deceive people into thinking they are talking about one religion when, in fact, they are talking about another.

Neither am I.

The fact that you created this strawman means you know -- deep inside -- that what Malaysia did was plain stupid. This is not about anyone's right but about perception.

So how do you know your Islam is the true religion of the universe ? You do not know. You have nothing but faith. That means anyone's attempt to convert anyone can be taken as deception. If you do not know that your religion is the true religion of the universe, then what make you so certain that mine is the false one and that I should to convert to yours ? That means anything you said about my religion, as far as its inadequacies goes, you had to lie and deceived me about yours.

But never mind that. Since you support this Malaysian law, it opened the doors for the government to hold religious people accountable to their own moral standards as dictated by their religious morals -- by legal force. So if your Islam said Muslims are not supposed to drink alcohol, we can make laws to imprison any Muslim who got caught with alcohol, drink or not. After all, we do not want Muslims to be deceptive to non-Muslims, do we ?

I did not accuse Catholics of not being Christian. Another poster dismissed the comments of an expert quoted in a New York Times article because, according to him, that expert was a Catholic and not qualified to comment on Christians.

This is what the man said...

the guy is not a missionary nor is he a Christian but rather Catholic, there is a big difference.

The word 'rather' indicate a preference. That does not mean he said a Catholic is not a Christian. Instead, it mean that if you speak to a Catholic that he is a generic Christian, the Catholic will most likely correct you, that he/she is a Catholic.

 

[Developereo]

The fact that you created this strawman

The only person flogging a strawman here is YOU

My argument, from day one, has been about truth in advertising. If one is selling Christianity, they should say so up front. Don't use deceptive tactics to make people believe they are talking about Islam when they are not.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to this central issue and ignored.

This is what the man said...

He wrote "nor is he a Christian".

If you have trouble reading plain English, get yourself a good dictionary or enroll in remedial English

 

[gambit]

The only person flogging a strawman here is YOU

My argument, from day one, has been about truth in advertising. If one is selling Christianity, they should say so up front. Don't use deceptive tactics to make people believe they are talking about Islam when they are not.

Truth in advertising...Good. That means we can regulate the Muslims according to what they advertise about themselves. We want them to be honest. That means if you support this Malaysian law, you should support any law regulating the Muslims in any country.

 

[Developereo]

Truth in advertising...Good. That means we can regulate the Muslims according to what they advertise about themselves. We want them to be honest. That means if you support this Malaysian law, you should support any law regulating the Muslims in any country.

Setting aside your penchant for vague blabbering to support your prejudice against Muslims, the directly relevant scenario would be thus: If Muslim missionaries claim to believe in Jesus as the Son of God in order to convert Christians to Islam, then you have every right to question that practice.

 

[gambit]

Setting aside your penchant for vague blabbering to support your prejudice against Muslims, the directly relevant scenario would be thus: If Muslim missionaries claim to believe in Jesus as the Son of God in order to convert Christians to Islam, then you have every right to question that practice.

But I would not sic the government on the Muslims. There lies the difference between me and you.

 

[Developereo]

But I would not sic the government on the Muslims. There lies the difference between me and you.

Wrong.

Truth in advertising laws are enacted and enforced by governments all over the place, including Western governments.

There was a case in California, where a woman was found guilty of prostitution, even though she claimed it was part of her 'religion'.

 

[gambit]

Wrong.

Truth in advertising laws are enacted and enforced by governments all over the place, including Western governments.

There was a case in California, where a woman was found guilty of prostitution, even though she claimed it was part of her 'religion'.

Good...Then you should have no problems if we make laws to enforce truth in advertising regarding religious matters. Funny how you keep avoiding this.

 

[Developereo]

Good...Then you should have no problems if we make laws to enforce truth in advertising regarding religious matters. Funny how you keep avoiding this.

Who's avoiding it?

I wrote several pages ago that if cover of religion (or any other cover) is used to commit fraud and deceive people, then the government has every right (and obligation) to intervene.

 

[gambit]

Who's avoiding it?

I wrote several pages ago that if cover of religion is used to commit fraud and deceive people, then the government has every right (and obligation) to intervene.

You are.

Do you support American laws regulating Muslims conduct as dictated by Islamic morality ? How about Australia ?

A person's conduct, and to a lesser degree appearance, speaks of his religious beliefs. They are adverts as to what his religion says about him and about the religion itself. He does not have to be proactive in proselytizing his religion. If he make a public declaration in anyway of his religious beliefs, the government have the right to research that religion and hold him legally accountable against that religion. Do you approve ?

 

[Developereo]

You are.

Do you support American laws regulating Muslims conduct as dictated by Islamic morality ? How about Australia ?

A person's conduct, and to a lesser degree appearance, speaks of his religious beliefs. They are adverts as to what his religion says about him and about the religion itself. He does not have to be proactive in proselytizing his religion. If he make a public declaration in anyway of his religious beliefs, the government have the right to research that religion and hold him legally accountable against that religion. Do you approve ?

When you avoid the subject and go off into your hypotheticals, you are advertising the fact that you have no argument.

An individual not living up to the moral code is not the same as a missionary deliberately misusing words with the explicit intention to deceive people. Human beings of every religion fall short of the ideal.

A comparable example, which I gave, was of a mathematics PhD abusing the word 'doctor' to open a medical clinic.

Or a Muslim missionary abusing the word 'Trinity' to deceive Christians into thinking something else.

 

[gambit]

Aaaah...How revealing of what the Muslims want to regulate the non-Muslims...

'Infidels must wear red collars and shave heads': 'Nazi' vision of Muslim Britain from Imam who ran 'Isis' barbecue in Cardiff park | Mail Online

When you avoid the subject and go off into your hypotheticals, you are advertising the fact that you have no argument.

Just like you...Am speaking in the abstract. But your continuing avoidance is noted.

 

[Developereo]

Aaaah...How revealing of what the Muslims want to regulate the non-Muslims...

'Infidels must wear red collars and shave heads': 'Nazi' vision of Muslim Britain from Imam who ran 'Isis' barbecue in Cardiff park | Mail Online


Just like you...Am speaking in the abstract. But your continuing avoidance is noted.

The only thing to be noted is your ignorance of how the law works (don't even tempt me to humiliate you on this matter) and your penchant for quoting up extremist individuals as representative of the whole community. A favored tactic of bigots like you.

 

[gambit]

The only thing to be noted is your ignorance of how the law works (don't even tempt me to humiliate you on this matter) and your penchant for quoting up extremist individuals as representative of the whole community. A favored tactic of bigots like you.

Truth in advertising laws are about taking tangible things from people by deception. If a man lied to a woman to seduce her into sex, should the government step in ?

For you to use such laws to justify what Malaysia is doing says much more about yourself and your bigotry than about me. You humiliated yourself. For people like you, today it is about speech, tomorrow it will be something a little more, and the next day a little more, and so on. Soon enough, non-Muslims will be completely oppressed and you will be fine with that.

 

[Developereo]

Truth in advertising laws are about taking tangible things from people by deception. If a man lied to a woman to seduce her into sex, should the government step in ?

For you to use such laws to justify what Malaysia is doing says much more about yourself and your bigotry than about me. You humiliated yourself. For people like you, today it is about speech, tomorrow it will be something a little more, and the next day a little more, and so on. Soon enough, non-Muslims will be completely oppressed and you will be fine with that.

No, YOU keep humiliating yourself by displaying ignorance of a) English and b) what I wrote.

I wrote that, if a significant number of mathematics PhD started opening medical clinics as doctors, then the govt. would have to step in. Over and over again, I have emphasized that if the fraud and deception is widespread enough, then it merits action by the government.

If enough men were putting Rohypnol in women's drinks, then the govt. steps in.

Fraud and deception occurs every day at every level. The discussion is about the situation where it reaches widespread proportions.

The innocuous and informal use of Allah by Malaysian Christians was happening for a long time and no one was bothered. It is only after cashed up Western missionaries started doing it on a country wide scale, with a clearly deceptive intention, that it became the issue it is today.