'Allah' for Muslims only: Malaysia's top court

[A.P. Richelieu]

I am sorry to tell you that you are a bit off the context, it all about the dissemination of thoughts (either by deceit or for provocation or harassment) rather than the own belief.


So, if some missionary comes to you and starts preaching that Jesus in the son of GOD you'll tell him your opinion about your belief in the ten commandments, won't you? and what if he keeps doing it despite your statement? wouldn't that be harassment ?
Imagine on a national level or even on an international level like it is the case with Muslim countries from North Africa to Souther Asia.

I can handle, and have handled missionaries in my own country (Jehovas Witness). It is not that hard.

Went through a personality test at the Scientology Church, and described the personality of Donald Duck.
Never heard from them again...

 

[The SC]

I can handle, and have handled missionaries in my own country (Jehovas Witness). It is not that hard.

Went through a personality test at the Scientology Church, and described the personality of Donald Duck.
Never heard from them again...

Most of us have done that, now what about if they keep knocking on your door anytime they choose to, and restart their preaching after all polite refusals on your part? That will become harassment and authorities will be called in to prevent it.
This is just about harassment, imagine when deceit and other unlawful tricks are the tactics used for conversion repeatedly.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

My claims were from some mostly french written rticles, and they dated to at least 10 years ago, but I have found something that might help exlpain the allegations (a link), it goes for the EU too:

The Religious Worker Path to a Green Card

If you work for a recognized religious organization, either as a minister or a religious worker, you might qualify for a green card as a special immigrant. You can apply for your green card as a minister or religious worker from inside the U.S.—if you are in lawful status and not working without authorization—or from abroad. You start the process by filing an I-360 petition on your own or through your employer. Whether you or your employer files the petition, the prospective U.S. employer must submit certain documentary evidence, including an attestation showing that certain requirements have been met regarding the organization, its history of filing this type of petition and the position and salary.

Now, the immigration regulations define a “minister” as someone who is fully authorized by a religious denomination to conduct religious activities, such as a minister, priest, rabbi, imam, ordained deacon, or Buddhist monk. A “religious worker” is defined as someone who is in a religious vocation or occupation and is authorized to perform normal religious duties, such as religious instructors, religious counselors, missionaries, religious broadcasters, workers in religious hospitals and cantors. Purely non-religious workers and volunteers are not included in this definition. Over the years the regulations defining religious occupations have changed and there has been litigation over varying interpretations. Someone attempting to immigrate under this category would be well advised to consult with an immigration attorney about their specific circumstances.

Seattle Immigration Lawyer Blog: The Religious Worker Path to a Green Card

This fact means nothing on its own, only when it is combined with the missionary tactics and the needs and aims of poor people that it takes full significance. I am proving here that missionaries can hire people, convert them and help them get an entry visa to any western country as religious workers. Would this be a trap? I'll let the readers decide.
I will try to find the articles and translate some if it is possible.

Here are at least 10 articles about the Visa relation to conversions (In French).

des visa pour les nouveau converti au christianisme - Google Search

No, you show that if a US based church hires someone, then like any other US company can try to bring them to the US, but normally, the visas are temporary, and the church has to pay their salary during the visa period.
The missionaries are not issuing any visas. Those are issued by the US Government.

If you read the link above:

"To qualify for a green card as a minister or religious worker, for at least 2 years immediately before filing the visa petition, you must have been a member of a religious denomination that has a bona fide, nonprofit, religious organization in the U.S.
Also, you must be seeking to come to the U.S. to work full time (35 hours) in a paid position, purely to carry on your vocation as a minister or to work for a bona fide, nonprofit religious organization in the U.S. or its affiliate in the U.S.
Finally, you must have been working as a minister or religious worker—abroad or lawfully in the U.S.—for at least 2 years immediately prior to filing the visa petition. (There can be breaks in the 2-year period but only in certain situations. And, unauthorized employment during the 2-year period stops the 2-years from accruing but it can be restarted again.)"

You realize how limited this option is.

This is US only. I am not aware of such rules in (Northern) Europe.
What the French are doing, is up to them.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Yup a 2007 article brings the house down!

Yes 60% is still alot ....

Muslim (or Islam - official) 60.4%, Buddhist 19.2%, Christian 9.1%, Hindu 6.3%, Confucianism, Taoism, other traditional Chinese religions 2.6%, other or unknown 1.5%, none 0.8% (2000 census)

The oppressive system in place is still in place. How does it matter if the case is of 2007? Have they changed their laws? Do you know there have been many more such cases? Sending people to six months religious rehab and forcing them to eat beef, taking their children away and forcing them away from their spouse - all for wanting to be recognized a non muslim??? - a modern and progressive muslim state??? That's an oxymoron.

 

[The SC]

No, you show that if a US based church hires someone, then like any other US company can try to bring them to the US, but normally, the visas are temporary, and the church has to pay their salary during the visa period.
The missionaries are not issuing any visas. Those are issued by the US Government.

If you read the link above:

"To qualify for a green card as a minister or religious worker, for at least 2 years immediately before filing the visa petition, you must have been a member of a religious denomination that has a bona fide, nonprofit, religious organization in the U.S.
Also, you must be seeking to come to the U.S. to work full time (35 hours) in a paid position, purely to carry on your vocation as a minister or to work for a bona fide, nonprofit religious organization in the U.S. or its affiliate in the U.S.
Finally, you must have been working as a minister or religious worker—abroad or lawfully in the U.S.—for at least 2 years immediately prior to filing the visa petition. (There can be breaks in the 2-year period but only in certain situations. And, unauthorized employment during the 2-year period stops the 2-years from accruing but it can be restarted again.)"

You realize how limited this option is.

This is US only. I am not aware of such rules in (Northern) Europe.
What the French are doing, is up to them.

That is what they seemingly offer work permits in churches to get a visa and permanent residence, in the US as well as in some European countries.
I have not heard about that from northern Europeans, only the dutch missionaries got ousted because of proselytism.

 

[Dubious]

The oppressive system in place is still in place. How does it matter if the case is of 2007? Have they changed their laws? Do you know there have been many more such cases? Sending people to six months religious rehab and forcing them to eat beef, taking their children away and forcing them away from their spouse - all for wanting to be recognized a non muslim??? - a modern and progressive muslim state??? That's an oxymoron.

And wiki + Christian missionary sites are your sources? Lovely!

Good to know you know all about Malaysia without ever living here and living on wiki?!

 

[Malik Alashter]

Malaysia is sinking.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Once again, YOU demonstrate your desperation by bringing in Iran, Iraq and Syria to make your point.

The fact that Malaysian Muslims are even debating this issue shows they are more tolerant than bigots like YOU who continue to defend the oppression of Muslims in Europe.

Once again, no one denies that this is a restriction on speech. The fact that a history PhD cannot open a medical clinic as a "doctor" is also a restriction on their speech. But such restrictions are imposed when unscrupulous individuals or groups abuse the freedom of speech to commit fraud.

The fault, ultimately, likes with the Western missionaries.

It has been shown that the restrictions you complain about in Europe, exists in Malaysia
and many other Islam countries. You then resort to capital letters and ranting about desperation.
When muslims want a safe haven, they go to Europe. I think that settles who's right.

You leave important authorities without comment, when they call YOU BIGOT.
(funny, i don't see Capital letters as proving my point, just feel embarrased)

As for the restrictions themselves: Churches and Mosques are not only places for worship.
Height is needed to make the sound from bells or chanters go farther,
They are also designed high to dominate the neighborhood.
The calling for prayer from minarets, is also designed to make people feel
they are living in a muslim society.
The muslim declaration of faith, is incompatible with the christian declaration of faith.
Both consider the other faith to be Blasphemous.
So I find it Ok to call for prayer, but not to declare faith in loudspeakers all over a town.
Noone is normally allowed to make public statements over loudspeakers on a regular basis,
since this is considered to be disturbing the peace.
Muslims are asking for special favours, and if rejected, that is not discrimination.
In specially designed "Speakers Corners", like in Hyde Park, no problem.
If the goal of minarets is only to make people go to the mosque, then they are obsolete.
There are watches or mobile phones with excellent calendar functions.

As for veiling/non-veiling, the issue is group pressure.
I am 100% for individual choice in dressing, but 100% against clothes worn as a uniform.
If clothes are used to apply group pressure, then it is limiting individual choice,
and should be banned.
Once the muslim world allows women to make their own choice about clothing,
then it is no longer a uniform, and I bet existing restrictions in countries like France will
and should ease off.

How muslim countries behave is very important for development.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

This is a case of regulating the use of certain words because they were being used to deceive the public and commit fraud by unscrupulous individuals and organizations.

If there is a pattern of mathematics PhD's abusing the word 'doctor' to open medical clinics to deceive people, then the state has an obligation to regulate usage of that word.

PhDs will not be prosecuted for abusing the word 'doctor'. They are allowed to
open medical clinics, as anybody else, but the staff making any Medical Work
inside the clinic must have the right licenses. Has nothing to do with free speech,
and regulation of the word 'doctor' is not neccessary.

The only reason for the law is that muslims want to stop other muslims from making an educated choice
whether to remain muslims or convert to another religion, so it is a restriction both on free speech
and on free religion.

That is what they seemingly offer work permits in churches to get a visa and permanent residence, in the US as well as in some European countries.
I have not heard about that from northern Europeans, only the dutch missionaries got ousted because of proselytism.

As you can see from above, there are significant restrictions, and not useable to convert a crowd of poor uneducated people, so it is not an argument. You have yet to show that missionaries are issuing visas.
If this is all, you have failed.

As for the Dutch, they were accused of trying to convert muslims to christianity (which they denied)
Since Morocco makes it illegal to convert, "deceit" is not even needed.

Unjust Laws can make a criminal out of a saint.
Jesus was executed...
.

 

[Alishahid3551]

If the missionaries message is so strong, why do they need to resort to such tricks?

In any business, the most important step is to get the customer in the door. There are lots of young people who would think they were attending Muslim prayers, only to find out they were being slowly converted into other religions. The conversion doesn't happen through one talk. It seeps in slowly over months and years.

Hello,
Why would any young person would think that they are praying muslim prayers,such a fool thinking,first the young people thinking are not so weak,that watchin them would convert us in to their religions,when you faith in One God and in his last Prophet MOHAMMED(P.B.U.H) ,such tricks can Confuse us,we all know that christians and jewish believe in Allah ,but christian have other beliefs and jewish had other,if we try to stop them fro msaying that word,which word would they use

 

[notsuperstitious]

And wiki + Christian missionary sites are your sources? Lovely!

Good to know you know all about Malaysia without ever living here and living on wiki?!

I've lived in Malaysia lady, and the case was reported in all major newspapers including bbc (posted link), cnn etc. I do not know why you lack the mental courage to accept something instead resort to closing your eyes and living in denial.

 

[Alishahid3551]

It has been shown that the restrictions you complain about in Europe, exists in Malaysia
and many other Islam countries. You then resort to capital letters and ranting about desperation.
When muslims want a safe haven, they go to Europe. I think that settles who's right.

You leave important authorities without comment, when they call YOU BIGOT.
(funny, i don't see Capital letters as proving my point, just feel embarrased)

As for the restrictions themselves: Churches and Mosques are not only places for worship.
Height is needed to make the sound from bells or chanters go farther,
They are also designed high to dominate the neighborhood.
The calling for prayer from minarets, is also designed to make people feel
they are living in a muslim society.
The muslim declaration of faith, is incompatible with the christian declaration of faith.
Both consider the other faith to be Blasphemous.
So I find it Ok to call for prayer, but not to declare faith in loudspeakers all over a town.
Noone is normally allowed to make public statements over loudspeakers on a regular basis,
since this is considered to be disturbing the peace.
Muslims are asking for special favours, and if rejected, that is not discrimination.
In specially designed "Speakers Corners", like in Hyde Park, no problem.
If the goal of minarets is only to make people go to the mosque, then they are obsolete.
There are watches or mobile phones with excellent calendar functions.

As for veiling/non-veiling, the issue is group pressure.
I am 100% for individual choice in dressing, but 100% against clothes worn as a uniform.
If clothes are used to apply group pressure, then it is limiting individual choice,
and should be banned.
Once the muslim world allows women to make their own choice about clothing,
then it is no longer a uniform, and I bet existing restrictions in countries like France will
and should ease off.

How muslim countries behave is very important for development.

Right,each one is allowed to practice his religion,such thhings can create unpeaceness in the Wolrd

 

[Dubious]

I've lived in Malaysia lady, and the case was reported in all major newspapers including bbc (posted link), cnn etc. I do not know why you lack the mental courage to accept something instead resort to closing your eyes and living in denial.

Good to know you have lived there!
Taking individual cases and blowing them up is the case for everyone...I can do the same for India
Then I dont understand why you lack the mental courage to accept something instead resort to closing your eyes and living in denial about other issues!

 

[Contrarian]

I've lived in Malaysia lady, and the case was reported in all major newspapers including bbc (posted link), cnn etc. I do not know why you lack the mental courage to accept something instead resort to closing your eyes and living in denial.

Good to know you have lived there!
Taking individual cases and blowing them up is the case for everyone...I can do the same for India
Then I dont understand why you lack the mental courage to accept something instead resort to closing your eyes and living in denial about other issues!

notsuperstitious , she will label this as an 'individual case' even when it is clear that the Law in Malaysia asks for all this inhuman treatment.
You will find intellectual dishonesty at full display and find it very hard to make her see inhuman laws enacted in Muslim countries.

 

[Areesh]

Time for India to take Hindu asylums seekers from Malaysia too.

@Contrarian