All Those Who Oppose Dialogue with TTP: What is the Final Solution in Your Opinion for TTP Problem?

[Vapnope]

Areesh, you might be seeing it from our capacity standpoint of dealing with asymmetric warfare however to me it is a war against a narrative and not on a specific group of people. You wil find TTP narrative to be very similar to "Afghan Mujahideen" who fought against Soviet forces and if Pakistani state cannot come with a clear statement or narrative and enforce it with force, when necessary, it would end up losing more people to a menace that will never die.

The problem with the asymmetric warfare is that it cannot be eliminated only using military means and requires joint collaboration of many state pillars that are justice system, police, army, crises management, psychological means, media and above all a clear narrative. If a state is willing and competent, then it needs to enforce its writ using aforementioned points. In Pakistan, we fought a bloody war with TTP and yet they continue to have the upper hand in term of narrative hence their foot soldiers are only increasing and they even get support for some factions within Afghan taliban.

I understand that at some point you will try to woo these people to drop their guns however it should not be done by going back on our narrative.

Here is my idea of negotiation with TTP,
1 - Militants who have not killed any Pakistani will be given amnesty if they surrender and take an oath not to join any militant group which harms pakistanis or Pakistan
2 - Militants who have killed Pakistanis if surrender would be given a fair trial and would serve the sentence as per the law of Pakistan
3 - Waging a war against state of Pakistan or Pakistanis will be a crime punishable by death either by courts or by military means
4 - If militants do not surrender, Pakistani state will use all means to apprehend and punish them wherever they are.

 

[El Sidd]

The only reason that people like you would support Negotiations with TTP is due to your religious affiliation

Does that mean your religious affiliations are a mistress to continued bloodshed? or do you see this as a religious war?

 

[Khanate]

I have raised the same question on this forum months before rumours started swirling of talks with TTP. And I'll repeat myself again: how do Pakistanis envision the end of conflict with TTP? Are we hoping for TTP to die in Afghanistan? Are we hoping to kill every last TTP cadre?

I usually see emotional outbursts over lack of MRAP and drone surveillance. While I'm sympathetic to their viewpoint and it isn't completely unjustified however US had MRAPs, drones and more yet it was unable to overcome an insurgency in Afghanistan. Pakistan needs to learn from the American experience and come up with a pragmatic political road map i.e. make peace with those desiring peace and wage war against those not yielding.

With TTA takeover, Pakistan has an opportunity to settle the TTP issue. At the same time, it is a mistake to think of peace as absence of war. Pakistan should incorporate Lt. Gen Tariq's (R) approach to reconciliation which I'm convinced can usher in lasting peace.

1. This led to usurpation of the tribes by people who hi-jacked tribal life and living. They coerced people and forced young men to join their ranks at gun point. There were kidnappings and murders. The TTP has a lot to answer to their own respective tribes. No one else can settle this and if anyone does, it will lead to an alienated tribal society that will always be in search of justice. It would lead to feuds and wars amongst tribes for years to come. It is thus suggested, humbly, please let the tribes handle this and the Government should only facilitate the process. The TTP who are willing to give up their old ways, need to appear before their respective tribal jirgas who should decide what should be done with them. No one else can reconcile on the behalf of the tribes.​

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2. Let the defeated TTP make public statements acknowledging the wrong they have done and apologize to the tribes and the people of Pakistan before the Government needs to do anything at all. I know there are some who feel this may stop bloodshed, but please take it from someone who has been in it and knows, it will probably lead to far more violence and bloodshed than one can even contemplate. History remains a testimonial record of how such things eventually unfold. We have been down this road before many a times. Remember, repeating the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result is a sign of insanity, Einstein.​

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Source: https://www.commandeleven.com/analysis/to-talk-or-not-to-talk​

 

[EternalMortal]

I think they went for negotiations too early without establishing the fact that WE are the dominant force. B/c right now TTP thinks they're negotiating from a position of strength so they're less willing to compromise.
What should have happened is that there should have been an op to show TTP we mean business & even the IEA can't stop us from coming after them. Once you've done enough damage, THEN offer them talks as a sign of our mercy & benevolence.

Other than that, in terms of narrative they still have a strong influence. State has failed here. The only narrative we have is oh they're backed by India, which is not going to convince sympathizers. We should have fought their narrative with our own religious narrative.
We should have eradicated corruption with an iron fist. We should have improved our political system & made it more just. It's really criminal negligence by the state.

 

[CodeforFood]

Total destruction of TTP. That's the only way. This terror network will rise again. Just wait and see

Good luck with the total destruction

 

[R Wing]

full power full punishment and kill each and every single TTP terrorist no matter where they are in world .

Not possible. The US hardly managed it with AQ. We don't have that money, tech or resources. Next...

Make them all adopt a pet and a plant so they can learn how to become a human.

Best so far.

Areesh, you might be seeing it from our capacity standpoint of dealing with asymmetric warfare however to me it is a war against a narrative and not on a specific group of people. You wil find TTP narrative to be very similar to "Afghan Mujahideen" who fought against Soviet forces and if Pakistani state cannot come with a clear statement or narrative and enforce it with force, when necessary, it would end up losing more people to a menace that will never die.

The problem with the asymmetric warfare is that it cannot be eliminated only using military means and requires joint collaboration of many state pillars that are justice system, police, army, crises management, psychological means, media and above all a clear narrative. If a state is willing and competent, then it needs to enforce its writ using aforementioned points. In Pakistan, we fought a bloody war with TTP and yet they continue to have the upper hand in term of narrative hence their foot soldiers are only increasing and they even get support for some factions within Afghan taliban.

I understand that at some point you will try to woo these people to drop their guns however it should not be done by going back on our narrative.

Here is my idea of negotiation with TTP,
1 - Militants who have not killed any Pakistani will be given amnesty if they surrender and take an oath not to join any militant group which harms pakistanis or Pakistan
2 - Militants who have killed Pakistanis if surrender would be given a fair trial and would serve the sentence as per the law of Pakistan
3 - Waging a war against state of Pakistan or Pakistanis will be a crime punishable by death either by courts or by military means
4 - If militants do not surrender, Pakistani state will use all means to apprehend and punish them wherever they are.

Agreed --- but the TTP will never agree to any of these terms.

The reason is that the Afghan Taliban aren't in full control of Afghanistan yet. They have an ISKP problem and internal rifts. It'll take some time to sort out --- and till that time, the Afg Taliban aren't in a great position to force the TTP, who can (and have, often) joined ranks with ISKP.

There is no leverage over TTP, and therefore TTP does NOT feel like it is in the weaker position. It is happy to fight on.

So, while I agree with you, those terms will never be accepted by TTP --- and we will have given them crucial time to rest, regroup, etc. Even released a 100 prisoners. Each can become a suicide bomber under their tutelage within months.

I think they went for negotiations too early without establishing the fact that WE are the dominant force. B/c right now TTP thinks they're negotiating from a position of strength so they're less willing to compromise.
What should have happened is that there should have been an op to show TTP we mean business & even the IEA can't stop us from coming after them. Once you've done enough damage, THEN offer them talks as a sign of our mercy & benevolence.

Other than that, in terms of narrative they still have a strong influence. State has failed here. The only narrative we have is oh they're backed by India, which is not going to convince sympathizers. We should have fought their narrative with our own religious narrative.
We should have eradicated corruption with an iron fist. We should have improved our political system & made it more just. It's really criminal negligence by the state.

Congratulations. You get strategy better than GHQ and PMO combined.

(I'm not being sarcastic --- I actually mean it.)

I have raised the same question on this forum months before rumours started swirling of talks with TTP. And I'll repeat myself again: how do Pakistanis envision the end of conflict with TTP? Are we hoping for TTP to die in Afghanistan? Are we hoping to kill every last TTP cadre?

I usually see emotional outbursts over lack of MRAP and drone surveillance. While I'm sympathetic to their viewpoint and it isn't completely unjustified however US had MRAPs, drones and more yet it was unable to overcome an insurgency in Afghanistan. Pakistan needs to learn from the American experience and come up with a pragmatic political road map i.e. make peace with those desiring peace and wage war against those not yielding.

With TTA takeover, Pakistan has an opportunity to settle the TTP issue. At the same time, it is a mistake to think of peace as absence of war. Pakistan should incorporate Lt. Gen Tariq's (R) approach to reconciliation which I'm convinced can usher in lasting peace.

1. This led to usurpation of the tribes by people who hi-jacked tribal life and living. They coerced people and forced young men to join their ranks at gun point. There were kidnappings and murders. The TTP has a lot to answer to their own respective tribes. No one else can settle this and if anyone does, it will lead to an alienated tribal society that will always be in search of justice. It would lead to feuds and wars amongst tribes for years to come. It is thus suggested, humbly, please let the tribes handle this and the Government should only facilitate the process. The TTP who are willing to give up their old ways, need to appear before their respective tribal jirgas who should decide what should be done with them. No one else can reconcile on the behalf of the tribes.​

​

2. Let the defeated TTP make public statements acknowledging the wrong they have done and apologize to the tribes and the people of Pakistan before the Government needs to do anything at all. I know there are some who feel this may stop bloodshed, but please take it from someone who has been in it and knows, it will probably lead to far more violence and bloodshed than one can even contemplate. History remains a testimonial record of how such things eventually unfold. We have been down this road before many a times. Remember, repeating the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result is a sign of insanity, Einstein.​

​

Source: https://www.commandeleven.com/analysis/to-talk-or-not-to-talk​

Exactly.

But when you have two defensive doves as COAS and PM, what else do you accept? They have consistently prioritized extremely short-term (by that I mean THEIR term) plans for the long-term interests of the country.

The people who think these talks will magically work in our favor are just as naive and retarded as the people who think that this menace can be exterminated through military means alone (the "crush them/finish them wherever they hide" approach).

 

[R Wing]

Lets hear it from all the "security and terrorism experts" of PDF

Come on. Share us your solutions

1.) Help Afghan Taliban consolidate control in Afghanistan quietly. Loop in China's SIGINT help to find and destroy as many ISKP cells as possible, as quickly as possible.

Counterargument 1: Western/diplomatic complaints of interference.​

Rebuttal 1: Interests have totally diverged. Read some recently declassified strategy documents for the US in this region. It's just India, India, India. They are too concerned about China to give a damn about us, nor are / can we offer them anything at this stage. Helping to stabilize a neighbor is our right.​

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Counterargument 2: ISKP will start thinking of us as a target.​

Rebuttal 2: As if they don't already --- and won't start hitting us as soon as they get breathing room in Afg.​

2.) Capitalize on gains made with local tribes in FATA. Make it a top priority strategic goal to increase penetration of TTP. Find and Fix locations.

Counterargument: It's not so easy. They are nimble, clever irregular force.​

Rebuttal: Who said securing your country's interests in this neighborhood was going to be easy?!​

​

3.) Aggressively promote a phase-wise more tolerant version of Islam in the madrassas in and around the area --- and across Pakistan. Specifically attack the idea of takfir, which is a fringe concept not accepted by most mainstream schools throughout the history of the religion. Demonstrate elegantly that Islam is open to interpretation --- and at least introduce the room for tolerance.

Counterargument: This is a long-term, possibly generational effort. Decades of unabated growth of hardline Deobandi and Salafi ideology, aided by Saudi cash, is not easy to dismantle. This version of Islam also easily empowers the jihadi, so it is also a source of political power and legitimacy for mullahs, madrassa heads, TTP, etc., and therefore they will not let go of it easily.​

Rebuttal: Have to start somewhere!​

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4.) Be ready to bomb / tgt kill the hell out of them, with Afghan Taliban help if necessary, if they don't meet OUR demands. They cannot have any DEMANDS --- just requests.

Counterargument: But they do have demands! They want the release of their prisoners, a political office abroad and much more. Isn't it worth it for peace?1​

Rebuttal: Of course not! It is like nurturing a snake and waiting for it to bite you and introduce a good dose of venom into your body. The critical mistake was to start negotiations without clearly demonstrating who is in control --- now, we must pay the price. The least we can do is be prepared for what anybody with a strategic brain knows will happen...​

 

[PakAlp]

The only reason that people like you would support Negotiations with TTP is due to your religious affiliation. I remember JI Amir saying that Pakistani soldiers fighting TTP are murtad.

Regarding the solution, TTP was almost over but the establishment always keeps such groups at *almost*, they make sure that they're never *over*. Why? That's because their industry, real estate and the mulk khatray men syndrom would end. Gernails will no longer be able to enjoy their lodges and gulmohar houses unless 2nd Lts to Cols die.

If you really had to negotiate, then why waste the lives of 70k Civs and 7k security personnel? Shouldn't I go grab the arm of Asim Saleem and Asif Ghafoor for selling their *dehshat gardon ki kamar tor di* manjan to us? Why negotiate with an enemy with broken spine?

Also, they've been negotiated thrice before, but these rascals with a twisted version of Pashtunized Islam will come up with something new so that civilians will pay the price for once again.

The JI Ameer said this when propaganda was spread that Pakistan will collapse like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya etc, JUI and others were also anti Pak army, they would go read the funeral prayers of the terrorists but pak army jawaans were not martyrs and were murtad. I saw this video a long time ago when pak soldiers were captured by TTP and they shot all of them and before shooting word mentioned like "kafir murtad Pakistan fouj, kafir murtad hakumat Pakistan". This is when General Musharaff said we need to fight this war before its too late, so why sign peace deals now?

The only reason I think is that with TTA in power, this has made TTP very strong, the government of Pakistan wants to sign deals and bring peace before TTP wages another war.

The solution is Pakistan government should have gave more support to anti TTP lashkars, should have protected them from TTP onslaught, but they failed. Everytime Pakistan government signed deals with TTP, it made TTP regroup and made them strong, then TTP, Lashkar Islam and other terrorist groups took revenge against lashkars, assassinated them whilst Pakistan army/government watched. They need to fully support the lashkars, promote Pakistan ideology and crush the TTP mindset but this is not possible whilst TTP sympathisers are walking with Imran Khan and have influence at the higher level. They will never let their arm get cut off. Shameful policy makers.

# Kickout TTP/terrorist sympathisers, funders from all government/military levels.
# Stop all foreign funding to extremist groups
# Support anti TTP lashkars/groups- military
# Education, Build schools and teach Pakistani ideology
# Health care
# Sport centres

 

[fitpOsitive]

Lets hear it from all the "security and terrorism experts" of PDF

Come on. Share us your solutions

I am not against dialogue with anyone.
My two cents: Let's not directly jump to TTP. Let's examine the environment that is so conducive for terrorists, and especially the war economy. The right questions to ask will be: Do we offer them a better future? What is the alternative that we offer? Do we have any strategy to engage youth or do we even have any such intention? Why do people join the Taliban, TTP, or even ISIS? How can these issues be solved, even before they raise their heads?

TTP is just a boil on the body of Pakistan. Trust me, it's not the disease, it's just a symptom. Deal with TTP, however, you like. Pardon them, kill them, jail them, whatever. But the disease will come back in other forms.

Edit: Army cant solve these issues. Only civil govt will have to solve the issues and uproot the disease. It has to do more with our social structure, wealth and power distribution, education and to some extent the security. The people who cant provide, don't possess any influence.

 

[CatSultan]

All arguments I've seen so far are emotional. Can anyone give a logical argument?

 

[WarKa DaNG]

No prisoners, Kill them all

 

[cocomo]

State is inept to even take Mullah Burqah the farrari to the gallows. These snakes that the state nurtured have got state by the balls now. The worst part that is irreversible is the extremist jihadi ideological indoctrination of the whole society that keeps breeding these snakes. There is no solution, if you think dialogue / truce will be the end of it you are short sighted.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

I initially thought that with help of Afghan Taliban - we are about to end TTP, only to come to know laterwords that TTP and Afghan Taliban are having links with each other.

By the way, what is the guarantee that after talks, these groups will leave their savagery and become normal citizens of country?

 

[RoadRunner401]

All arguments I've seen so far are emotional. Can anyone give a logical argument?

You mean doing the same thing over and over again is logical?

The crux of your post is that Pakistan army wants to keep TTP alive

Do forum administration agree with what you are saying

Lets ask them

Are you telling all of us that the Terrorist Mullahs of LAL terrorist camps(not going to call it (LAL Mosque) built on illegal land in the middle of Islamabad are safe because ISI can't find them? Or you are claiming that the Military establishment is so incompetent and can't be trusted with the security of the state therefore we are better off surrendering to terrorists.
Or maybe are you asking Mods to delete other people's arguments because it doesn't suit your agenda of trying to generate sympathy for terrorists.

 

[PakAlp]

I initially thought that with help of Afghan Taliban - we are about to end TTP, only to come to know laterwords that TTP and Afghan Taliban are having links with each other.

By the way, what is the guarantee that after talks, these groups will leave their savagery and become normal citizens of country?

No guarantee, infact it will make TTP more powerful, for the Afghan Taliban the TTP are a useful ally, they may have disagreements regarding Pakistan but they are still the same group, just one is anti Pakistan due to Pakistan government not directly helping Taliban in Afghanistan and not implementing the sharia law like in Afghanistan (it is their narrative). You can't mess with their narrative, in Afghanistan Pakistan supports Taliban and its sharia laws but across the border the TTP and its sharia is alien.