Akbar Bugti Killed | Bughtis announce end of Sardari system

[sigatoka]

1. Had you heard the pleasent news that Bugti Tribes in Balochistan had announced today to End the Sardari System in the Province and Asked

2.
it was laso decided that all the bad customs regarding marrying off women for money will also be null and voide as well as other bad activities which result in women abuse or any violation of women rights would be punishable.

1. What exactly does the ending of the Sardari system entail? If it is as i believe the forced expropiration of wealth from the rich to the poor than it is an action that should be left to rot with the end of communism.

2. Jana, this maybe painful news but it is true. Marrying off women for money ensures that those who value a woman most highly will acquire her. It is economically inefficient for an entity to be possessed by someone when there is another person who values it higer. Indeed this is one of the major sources of gains from trade. Secondly, raising children requires a lot of resources, unfortunaetly in Pak. there isnt a well developed pension sector. This means that when people grow old they must rely on their children to take care of them. However, if you have daughters, they must be married off one day. How inequitable would it be Jana, that if a couple had four daughters and no sons that they be forced to end life in poverty?

"Selling" off daughters for money for marriage rectifies one of these inequities, those who have invested in children regarldless of whether boys or girls will not spend old age in poverty.

Another point Jana, "selling" daughters for money ensures that people who value the girl most will get her. How does a parent tell when there are dozens of suitors who the best one is? Is it the one who is willing to give $500 or the one who is willing to give $5000?

Thirdly Jana there are 105 boys to 100 girls, there always will be a way in which girls will have to be rationed. "Selling" girls in marriage is merely an explicit way of doing this (and the most efficient according to economics). Whether one finds this distasteful or not is personal opinion. May I add the point, in Western societies this "selling" occurs where the girl gets the payments. Whether it be committments, gifts or so forth. That is the girl gets the money. In this tribal system the parents gets this payments. Which is fair? Well, parents in poor places toil night and day to raise children, shouldnt they be allowed to recoup a small portion of their expenses?


The last point is this, at least its better than India's system of dowries where the girls family has to give money. This is ludicrioius, as it is there are more boys born than girls. By forcing girls to pay money is a terrible injustice and tax on families who have girls. Also with taxes, people try to avoid them. It is no coincidence that millions of female unborn children have been aborted over the decades. Secondly when the girls are born, there is higher chance that they will receive poor care and hence more likely to die than otherwise. Also, this has further skewed the population such that there are now i think 110 guys to 100 girls in india, the tragedy is that there will be many more males without mates and many indian girls who will die who otherwise would not.

To think of a "woman/female/girl" as a property should not be repulsive, indeed the properties we possess are to be cherished and treated well. To turn it around like Indians such that they are a greater burden and liability to ensure greater ill treatment of girls and much higher abortion rates.

 

[Srirangan]

It is economically inefficient for an entity to be possessed by someone when there is another person who values it higer

Sigh! This is a big problem in some parts of rural Asia.

A girl child is not a entity to be possessed. A 'she' is not an object.

A girl child has just as much right to earn a living as a boy child, and must be educated to do so.

Ofcourse in rural India & Pakistan; uneducated people would probably not understand this, purely because of lack of opportunity. But that doesn't mean we should carry on ahead with this mentality intop the 21st century onto internet forums.

What examples would we be giving of our culture/history?

 

[Srirangan]

To think of a "woman/female/girl" as a property should not be repulsive, indeed the properties we possess are to be cherished and treated well.

You'ld probably take care and treat your car well. But say your mother/wife; that is a seperate individual, not your property.

Don't you think?

 

[sigatoka]

How is this bad for Pakistan? This man was doing terrorism in Balochistan and also the parts of the country with the support of foreign governments (you know whom i am talking about). The government was and still is doing a lot of investment in Balochistan so some of the claims by these rebels aren't true at all. If anything, this is indeed good news.

If that is true than why is Bal. the poorest province in Pak., why does it have rich natural resources and still mire in poverty?

Management is not about inputs, its about outputs. Give me a billion dollars and i can dig a huge hole in the sand and pour million of litres of milk in it, but what good have i done?

The current strategy in Bal. is misguided.

 

[sigatoka]

Beautiful stuff...

1. Take Bughti's wealth and distribute it to gain public support.

2. The message should be clear, this is not about targetting a Balochi, but targetting a tyrant.

1. You should visit Zimbabwe

2. He was not a tyrant, he was a politician and a powerful man who had built a power base in his region. Indeed force might have been necessary, but I have yet to see the Pak. govt. pursue alternative to force in the region in a constructive manner.

 

[Spring Onion]

Sig ur entire post shows that You support sale of women.
I dont think woman is a commodity.

 

[sigatoka]

PTV has already announced that the land and property of Bugti will be distributed among his serfs. This was their land to begin with but British drew few lines on a map and gave this land to these traitors.

The initial distribution of land may have been inequitable yet the forceful redistribution will be devastating to the economy. This occurs because one can not change the slices of the economic cake that people receive without changing the size of the overall cake. Forceful land redistribution is a very, very dangerous idea and could rip the nation apart if people believe the economic problems of Bal. can be resolved by redistributing land.

 

[sigatoka]

The Bugti clan should have been wiped off a long time ago along with the Marri tribe. The writ of the Government should be enforced in that area and ideally Balochistan should be divided into 4 or 5 provinces and the 5 million Balochis should be well integrated with the rest of the 160 million or so citizens of the country.

Yes, and according to Raptors philosiphy we should also drop nuclear weapons on Bangladesh and invade it with ground troops.

Mod: Raptor banned.

 

[sigatoka]

1. An uprising in support of someone who organizes a militia, formulates and conspires the division of Pakistan and kills numerous Pakistani soldiers and foreigners through rockets, bombs and suicide attackers is something worth dealing with.

2. For this uprising if ever occurred would be illegal, criminal and most importantly treacherous. That should be made clear. Harboring traitors would only postpone this much feared scenario, but it's potential will always remain. One cannot just wish it away or ride the storm out ducking like an ostriche in the sand.

3. You're right there IS a possibility that a portion of the Baloch population might be up in arms. The entire Baloch population is 6 Million, thus far the militant factory has only been one town. That's less than 10% of the population if EVERYONE was involved.

4. Firing rockets is not a trend we want to encourage amongst ordinary citizens of Pakistan.

1. The fact that he was fighting doesnt necessarily mean he was plotting the carving up of the nation. Reasonable demands for more equitable division of revenue from Gas resources have repeatedly been rejected. Reasonable demands for greater autonomy and real authority for local governments have been rejected. Everyone feared that Indonesia was falling apart, granting greater local authority binds the naiton closer together. Aceh has been solved with peaceful negotiation. The central govt. attitude to NWFP have not been good either, the laws they pass are always being challenged by the govt. A nation as diverse as Pak. requires that communities within it respect different values of others. If those provinces want to be more religious, having the central govt. intervene all the time is not helpful for the longer term interest of the nation.

2. The alternative to sending in the guns does not only have to involve inaction. This is an artificial choice of choices you are offering merely to justify what occured. There is a real alternative, build more health clinics in Bal. build more roads, build more schools, provide water to towns and villages, provide improved communication technologies. Look at Irans Bal. province, it is not in uprisisng because the state is providing for the needs of the people. It does not mean Iran's govt. is sticking its head in the sand because it hasnt sent in the guns.

3. Situations have built in hysterisis, things continue along the trend they are on. Today it is one town, pursuing wrong policies will not take long to result in ten town rebelling and then a hundred and so forth.

4. The people of Pak. do not exist to serve the state, the state of Pak. was created and should exist solely to serve its citizens. Why are the rockets being fired? Look at Kashmir, India has pumped in hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Pak. must not allow a similar situation to develop in Bal. and it means pursuing a broader policy of sensible microeconomic projects which make a real, immediate difference in the people lives. Empty talk of taking land from the Sardar's and giving it to the poor will only result in the province and nation being engulfed in flames.

 

[A.Rahman]

Families of 22 killed by Bugtis awaits justice

Friday August 25, 2006 (1726 PST)

ISLAMABAD: Families of 22 killed on the directives of Akbar Bugti on the pretext of getting their children educated covertly, are still awaiting justice for past one month and have settled in front of the Parliament House in a protest camp.

Speaking to journalists, Muhammad Siddiqui resident of Qalandarani Kalir Tehsil Sui of an affected family, told that he got higher secondary education secretly from Quetta and his children too were acquiring education secretly.

He said, "When Bugti came to know about it, he imposed a fine of Rs 0.5 million and ordered all the educated children to be sent to Ferrari camp for training. Upon refusal by our family, to make an example out of us Akbar Bugti killed 22 of our family in 2003".

The mass murders were carried out on the orders Akbar Bugti by the terrorist group of Chakrani Bugti, Ali Bagh Chakrani Bugti, Mir Jan Chakrani Bugti, Shahnawaz Chakrani Bugti and Junaida Chakrani Bugti, he mentioned of the culprits.

They planted landmines in the stream and blocked water flow (to the area) and put a siege around our homes.

He said that for seven days we were left with no access to basic amenities of life.

He said that in the murder of 22 of the family, state of the art weapons were used.

He said that the police refused to lodge an FIR against Bugti out of fear.

Meanwhile Muhammad Siddiqui has appealed President General Pervez Musharraf, Prime Minister and Chief Justice to bring the culprits to justice.

End.

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?152464

Any comments on this article paajee?.

 

[A.Rahman]

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=2766

Three Marri commanders, 1,500 Fararis surrender


By our correspondent

KOHLU: Three guerilla commanders of the Marri tribe along with around 1,500 “Fararis” surrendered to the local administration in the Tadri area of Kohlu district on Tuesday. However, the Anjuman-e-Ittehad Marri dismissed the reported surrender as a “drama”.

The “Ferraris” also surrendered a huge cache of arms and ammunition, including more than a dozen 107mm missiles, over 350 Kalashnikov assault rifles, more than 50 rockets and ammunition.

These “Fararis” were reportedly involved in sabotage activities, including bomb blasts, rocket firing and attacks on national installations in different parts of the troubled Balochistan. The surrendering “Fararis” confessed to their involvement in subversive activities. They said they had been carrying out sabotage activities at the behest of their local Sardars. They demanded of the government to carry out development activities in their area so that they could lead a peaceful life.

The district coordination officer (DCO) Kohlu, Naseem Lehri, and other government officials were present on the occasion. Meanwhile, a spokesman for the Anjuman-e-Ittehad Marri dismissed the reported surrender of Fararis and said those who were shown in the media were not militants rather they were common citizens of Kohlu. APP adds: However the official media said six important Marri commanders along with their 2,000 supporters on Tuesday surrendered their arms to district authorities.

The commanders include Wadera Gazi Khan Marri, Wadera Bakht Ali Sherani Marri, Kari Khan Marri, Ruba Goryani Marri, Wadera Azeem, alias Bhuda, and Wadera Shamboo Khan Marri. These commanders were stated to be operating Bhambor, Hashpur and Dango Khan “Farari camps” in the district.

The arms included 75mm Recoilless rifle, 12.7mm gun, LMG, RPG, RPG-7, SMG, LMG, automatic grenade launchers and other lethal weapons which they used against the personnel of law-enforcement agencies and national installations.

Speaking on the occasion, the DCO said it is for the first time in the history of the country that the people from the Marri tribe have voluntarily laid their arms and announced support to the government.

The only reason behind their surrender is that they have been inspired by the government’s sincerity to develop their areas and ensure all civic amenities to them at their doorsteps.

“The Marri people are still leading an inhuman life due to the indifference and intransigence of their tribal elders who always offered tough resistance to the government development efforts in their areas,” he said. As a result, the people of the entire district are deprived of even safe drinking water. The tribal chieftains forced these people to fight by either keeping their family members hostage or occupying their land, he added.

The DCO said President Musharraf was the first-ever head of the country who has announced a special development package worth Rs 1.5 billion for the Kholu district during his recent visit.

Replying to a question about the number of Farari camps in the district, the DCO said that before the government action there were 14 camps but all have been eliminated during the last eight months by law-enforcement agencies. “Provision of basic living amenities to the backward Marri tribe is the top priority of the government,” he added.

The surrendering commanders, speaking on the occasion, said they quit their tribal elders and joined hands with the government after being impressed with its massive development projects in the province, particularly in Kohlu. They said their tribal head never worked for the development of their area and added that they were working under compulsion due to the extraordinary power of the tribal chief in the area which they have lost now.

Eminent Marri tribal elder and former commander Wadera Hazar Khan Marri said he would contact the Fararis who are fighting against security forces in the mountainous areas of the district and convince them to surrender in order to focus their attention on the development of their area.

Talking to journalists from Quetta at the Tadri area of the Maiwand Tehsil, on Tuesday after surrendering arms by the Fararis, he said the tribals are fighting against security forces due to ignorance.

Some tribal Sardars are exploiting these youths for their vested interests, he said, adding that it is high time to create awareness among them to give up arms and lend support to the government for development of the district.

The Wadera demanded establishment of a Nadra office in the Kohlu district as the people are poor and they can’t afford to visit the provincial capital for obtaining computerised national identity cards (CNICs).

He hailed the law-enforcement agencies for taking effective measures regarding maintenance of peace in the area and said that due to their strenuous efforts life has returned to normalcy and law and order has been improved.

 

[A.Rahman]

2,000 militants surrender

Wednesday, August 30, 2006

KOHLU: Six important Marri commanders and 2,000 militants surrendered to district authorities in Tadri, a town 140 kilometres from Kohlu, on Tuesday. Commanders Wadera Gazi Khan Marri, Wadera Bakht Ali Sherani Marri, Kari Khan Marri, Ruba Goryani Marri, Wadera Azeem alias Bhuda and Wadera Shamboo Khan Marri laid down their weapons. The district coordination officer said that this was the first time that the Marri tribesmen had surrendered and decided to support the government. app

 

[Lahori paa jee]

Any comments on this article paajee?.

He was cruel and may have acted like an animal

But we cannot kill him.

As someone very rightly said somewhere

If your kid starts to misbehave you spank them but you don't beat the **** out of them.

 

[sigatoka]

1. A girl child is not a entity to be possessed. A 'she' is not an object.

2. A girl child has just as much right to earn a living as a boy child, and must be educated to do so.

3. Ofcourse in rural India & Pakistan; uneducated people would probably not understand this, purely because of lack of opportunity. But that doesn't mean we should carry on ahead with this mentality intop the 21st century onto internet forums.

4. What examples would we be giving of our culture/history?

1. I believe in that girls should be well treated Srinrangan, if calling girls objects ensures they are better treated i am more comfortable than when they are called girls and aborted during births and allowed to die when young because of a couples "unlucky" draw in sex of child. According to Coase theorem where property rights are initially distributed makes no difference to efficiency (it does change who gets the money but the overall wealth created doesnt change). Every day, every hour, every second in every nation and community girls are being "sold". (except one- which i will re-examine later). In Baloch. the girls are being "sold" by parents. Every where else the girls are "selling" themselves. Where girls "sell" themselves, the payments arent explicit or monetary, they are promises made by the suitors. E.g. the suitor might promise to provide a house, an income, to do the dishes, to love and cherish. These are valuable promises, (if they are performed). In the meeting stage they may provide lunch, go 2 movies flowers choco. so forth. Let me go a bit further, the Present Value of the promises and gifts in the western market (adjusted for income differences between Bal. and West and assuming both markets competitive) exactly equal the monetary payments made by the male suitors in Bal. The thing is in the suitors paying money, its upfront, and its explicit dollars. In the non-upfront payment thing, the payments are usually in the future (and some in the present) and usually they arent given by saying bcoz i "acquired" u. It might be more romantic but its no different. See the thing is, there are only ever the same people there. The guys are there, the girls are there and somehow you pair them up. I wouldnt say that its quite a zero sum game for either sex (some pairs are better than others) but either method of allocating assuming both markets are allowed to function (that is paying upfront (Bal.) or promises (west)) should work equally well. However, the problem with the western system is that the promises are not enforceable. So in fact i wud say that unless the women can make the promises enforceable at low cost (thru courts or somehow like other contracts) the Bal. system would be more efficient in allocating.

2. You know its quite possible that girls could be better educated if parents could recoup some of their costs of educating them at marriage (throuhg reverse dowry).

3. Ouch. That hurt, however you have failed to understand my arguments and you are using emotions instead of logic.

p.s. I think you hate the idea that girls are "sold". There is another way to think of it. Why does the money flow from boys family to girls? Because girls are more valuable because of their relative scarcity (105 boys to 100 girls). If you twist the system around that boys start getting sold rather than girls (a.k.a. India/Bihar) you get the perverted situation where more girls are aborted and more die at young age leading to even greater scarcity of girls. The only difference in Baloch. situation vs. west is who gets the dough, in Baloch. the parents receive, in West the girls receive it. (Its actually a bit more complicated, if there is an ugly girl why cant she/herFamily give dowry to acquire a nicer guy? and other similar questions. )

Also i think you sub-consciously believe there is a strong agency problem. You believe that parents wont do the best by their children, in fact i think you are wrong. If anything, young people when choosing on their own usually make more mistakes than when they allow their parents to have strong influence. I mean in the West where young people make their choices totally on their own there is much higher incidence of relationship breakdown.

 

[sigatoka]

Sig ur entire post shows that You support sale of women.
I dont think woman is a commodity.

To increase welfare, there has to be a system of allocating both sexes to each other. A market for women and men dictated by prices is one way to allocate. Another is allocation based on unenforceable future promises (western dating scene).

One of the problem without allowing payments is that it enforces a barter system, everyone should understand the terrible constraints on allocation that barter presents. It requires a double coincidence of wants somethign that the invention of cash did away with it. For e.g. if there is a poor, good looking, smart hardworking guy and an ugly rich girl (who is still nice person) and cash transfers are prevented. What will happen? If the guy needs some money right now (for eg mothers cancer treatment) the marriage will not happen. If transfers of cash are allowed, the girls family might give money for treatment of mother and girl gets a nice guy. A mutually beneficial trade would be prevented by discouring cash payments.

But you reply, what if girls family had promised to pay right after marriage? Its unenforceable. Unenforceable contracts prevent a lot of benefical trades from occuring. The guy must weigh the chance of them backing out and might reject (wrongfully) and mother dies. He might marry (wrongfully) they dotn pay, mother dies again. This is an extreme case, but it is clear that if there is any effect of limiting cahs transfers, it can only be negative.