Air Superiority fighters comparision and requirement analysis.

[Titanium]

Have been browsing through JF-17, F-16 and other threads, all seems to be either comparison or why X won't stand a chance against Y.

I would like to understand What makes a great fighter

The top dog, always dropped around is SU-30MKM/I/A, Typhoon, F-16 etc.

I am sure each deserve the hype and reputation. But sometimes you also wonder how much each is a fighter due to "airframe" and "avionics", lets dissect it for what they are..

Also most may agree that a MIG-21, JF-17, LCA, may not match against above and may lose out 10 times out of 10, But do they lose out by same margin, if 10 Mig-21 fight 10 SU-30, TYPHONE, F-16 ??

Certainly not and if we bring the GCI and AWACS into consideration may be they hold out more than we expected.

The other part is what makes a good fighter??

• Airframe (agility, maneuverability ...)
  
• High thrust to wight
  
• Avionics (radar, defense suite...)
  
• Missiles( WVR, BVR...)

I would welcome if we can run a scenario, where a low aircraft like MIG-21 Bison, JF-17 pitted against the above top dogs in a multi aircraft battle. Assume these are defending aircraft, backed by AWACS on both sides. Each one have missiles of similar range and quality.

 

[Titanium]

Reserved for future... results

 

[Titanium]

I being a history buff having read some battle accounts always believed in "small and swift". But Mastan Khan here, has some points, which am sure he has good reasons to believe.

JF 17 is a dumb mistake---one of many---.

Pak would be better served with 60-75 J 11's and 200 J 10's alongwith the F 16's.

60-75 plus J 11's will be sufficient to put pak airforce at par with the iaf on its own turf.

 

[Titanium]

Am expecting something better here......


Please read and contribute in meaningful way.


Thanks.

 

[ptldM3]

F-16 is the undisupted unchallenged combat proven Air Superiority fighter. As 25 nations are current users of this jet. Same cannot be said for SU-30MKM/I/A, Typhoon.

The less capable version of the SU-30, the SU-27 has a 6:0 kill ratio or combat record, so it is combat proven.

 

[SomeGuy]

F-16 is the undisupted unchallenged combat proven Air Superiority fighter. As 25 nations are current users of this jet. Same cannot be said for SU-30MKM/I/A, Typhoon.

YouTube - Pakistan F16 block 50/52

Many would say the F-15 is the undisputed combat proven air superiority fighter.

But even this is misleading.

Most of these wars were against countries who aren't going to be able to put up much of a fight and so it doesn't matter what planes you use against them.

 

[Titanium]

The less capable version of the SU-30, the SU-27 has a 6:0 kill ratio or combat record, so it is combat proven.

Hmmm...I think , in fact I believe SU-27 is better airframe than SU-30MKM/I/A, as far as air superiority is concerned.

Nice clean airframe, No canards, no unnecessary TVC and its associated weight, Better thrust to weight Looks pure hunting bird.

Just the two seater config of SU-30MKM adds huge drag and curtail its inherent performance.

 

[anathema]

against what, provide sources, what other powerful military uses them?

I dont know about powerful but check out eritenia vs ethiopia air ware in the 1999's...Su 27 has a combat record , it may not be as glorified as its wester collegues but its there..

 

[Machoman]

I can tell only after this comes up.

H.A.W.X. 2 | Ubisoft

 

[Titanium]

I can tell only after this comes up.

H.A.W.X. 2 | Ubisoft

Good

Meanwhile, can we do little scenario play, as mentioned in the First post.

 

[Kompromat]

Good

Meanwhile, can we do little scenario play, as mentioned in the First post.

Scenario where JF-17's are defending skies Backed by Y-8 Awacs over Pakistan and MKI is the aggressor aircraft:

1st thing first: Can Phalcon peep into pakistan in a war time more than 200 Kms?

The answer is no - we have some treatment installed on the eastern border just to hunt down phalcon if it comes in 200km radius.

2: MKI when in Pakistan's air space would not have any access to awacs and would largely depend upon its own radar.

3: JFT carries SD-10 and would carry SD-10G which has more range , current range is 120+ Kms.

JFT would have datalink in its own airspace with Y-8 which provides 360 degree surveillance for 400kms which means that there would be enough warning for JFT's to get a favored position.

MKI can fire 4 Missiles at same time where JFT can fire 2 and both have similar range , considering MKI has a massive heat signature , More RCS and is being detected by awacs every moment would be an easy target.

MKI has no HOBS capability which means that it can be tricked in and can be attacked from different angles avoiding detection by flying low or get mki in surprise.

Once in our airspace the MKI can get its electronics jammed too to a reasonable level resulting in a limited capability.

2 JFT's can take out an MKI class fighter without any doubt but in a defensive role only.

Regards:

 

[anathema]

I would like to learn more about these scenarios !

Scenario where JF-17's are defending skies Backed by Y-8 Awacs over Pakistan and MKI is the aggressor aircraft:

1st thing first: Can Phalcon peep into pakistan in a war time more than 200 Kms?

The answer is no - we have some treatment installed on the eastern border just to hunt down phalcon if it comes in 200km radius.

Why do you think Phalcon cannot peep into Pakistan more than 200 KM's ? Guestimated detection range for Phalcon is 350 KM's. It can monitor well inside 200 KM's.
Note that i have used guestimated since there are no official sources of Phalcon detection range.
Add Green Pine radar to this logic...you will realize phalcon along with ground based radar's can monitor well into your territory.

What sort of treatment ? IF you are talking of PAF fighters - then they will be detected by Phalcon , if you are talking about SAM, then it will be outside SAM's range.

IAF is more likely to conduct SEAD mission before doing anything before.

2: MKI when in Pakistan's air space would not have any access to IAFawacs and would largely depend upon its own radar.

More likely they would. If they really venture deep into your territory then probably yes. But AWACS has its own escort firghters to defend itself incase it ventures into the enemy territory.

3: JFT carries SD-10 and would carry SD-10G which has more range , current range is 120+ Kms.

JFT would have datalink in its own airspace with Y-8 which provides 360 degree surveillance for 400kms which means that there would be enough warning for JFT's to get a favored position.

What is a favored position ? Ever since AWACS has come into picture there are no surprises -- There are no favoured positions. JF 17 will be in the air waiting for MKI and so will MKI.

MKI can fire 4 Missiles at same time where JFT can fire 2 and both have similar range , considering MKI has a massive heat signature , More RCS and is being detected by awacs every moment would be an easy target.

There are ways to fool both passive and active homing devices on missiles. The ECW that MKI has is Elta pod used in Israeli F15 - which is similar to MKI in almost all mission profiles. The thing is - After JFT fires 2 , and if MKI defeats them then what ?

MKI has no HOBS capability which means that it can be tricked in and can be attacked from different angles avoiding detection by flying low or get mki in surprise.

What is HOBS capability ? Can you explain more ?

Once in our airspace the MKI can get its electronics jammed too to a reasonable level resulting in a limited capability.

2 JFT's can take out an MKI class fighter without any doubt but in a defensive role only.

Sure---its possible.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The chinese bvr on hf 17 will have a range of 60 km approx and for a 90% kill ratio---the opponent needs to be in 35---40 km range and coming in.

OTOH the su 30 bvr's are at abouit 100 km range and their 90% kill ratio I believe is at about 60--70 km---which means that after launching it bvr's the su 30 can turn away 180 degrees---incidently the jf 17 won't be able to launch its missiles because it is still 20---25 km away from a 90% kill shot.

Secondly----the russian system is proven over the years---the chinese is still developing---still learning to walk---little baby steps---. It will mature in due time and will be extremely potent---no doubt about it---but till then you got to fight with what you have----and it doesnopt look good for jf 17.

Thirdly---su 30 carries 8 bvrs in one load copmared to 2 by jf 17---the su can launch 2 missiles at each of four jf 17 within seconds within a 90 % kill range and then turn around---. Two su 30's can launch 4 missile each at 4 jf 17's at one time.

The su 30's in this scenarios can come within a 100% kill ratio zone of 50 km after launching the first two missiles at one plane and then launch two more at 50 km range and then scoot----the is no plane in the world which can escape 4 incoming missiles----within 90---100% kill range.

 

[maithil]

^^Interesting analysis...

 

[ptldM3]

against what, provide sources, what other powerful military uses them?

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/su-27_ops.htm

Ethiopian Su-27s reportedly shot down five Eritrean MiG-29s and damaged another one

The other kill was in Chechnya.








I have limited knowledge regarding the JF-17 but if i may i will address a few things.

1st thing first: Can Phalcon peep into pakistan in a war time more than 200 Kms?

Absolutely, Pakistan is small in terms of width, and the Phalcon has a range of 370km, keeping this in mind if Phalcons and MKI's operate on the Indo-Pakistan border then they will vertually have full coverage, or at worst a degree of coverage if they get pushed back buy Pakistani airforce, SAMs or a combination of the two.

Of course SAMs will be threat but with good planing SAMS can be eliminated; unfortunately eliminating SAMs can result in causualties.

Honestly i'm not sure what kind of SAMS Pakistan operates but if they are short to medium range then awacs can simply climb to an altitude where SAMs will not pose a threat, then again awacs tend to say out of hostile airspace atleast until it is cleared.

2: MKI when in Pakistan's air space would not have any access to awacs and would largely depend upon its own radar.

They most likely would, even if Indian awac's operate in Indian territory they would still feed MKI's, atleast to a certain point, if not MKI's BARS can scan 350km.

3: JFT carries SD-10 and would carry SD-10G which has more range , current range is 120+ Kms.

Very likely, but this is a furure upgrade.

considering MKI has a massive heat signature , More RCS and is being detected by awacs every moment would be an easy target.

From the best of my knowledge the JF-17 has no IRST even if it did IRST's have some what of a limited range, and the 'massive' heat signature would only radiate from the rear hemisphere, from the front the signature would be drastically reduced. Either way the OLS will allow the MKI to pick up the heat signatures of other smaller aircraft heads on, so there is no advantage.

MKI has no HOBS capability which means that it can be tricked in and can be attacked from different angles avoiding detection by flying low or get mki in surprise.

The R-73 has high off bore sight, and as far as i am aware the MKI is armed with them.

Once in our airspace the MKI can get its electronics jammed too to a reasonable level resulting in a limited capability.

F-15 pilots have said that elta jammers made Indian Mig-21's practically invicible, this is not to say that Pakistan cannot jam them but that it will be difficult.