Air Force Question Thread

[Drebin]

@Taygibay,

Hello dear sir, how are you doing? I'm sorry for leaving the discussion incomplete as I had Diploma exams. Anyway, you made some very interesting and knowledgeable points which not only ans the quarries but, also serve as the eye opener and, increases the thirst for attaining more knowledge. I really thank you for that .

And so continuing on with our discussion, I'd like to make a few points by quoting text from your post and one other member for reference. And, please bear with me as its going to be a very long reply.

First on the "light" thing. Most numbers for the Thunder are around 80% of the equivalent ones for the Falcon of the blocks owned by Pakistan! The avionics are not superior either? Its only valid superiority is that it allows the PAF to use BVR missiles which is awesome on a national level.

WOW! Reading the comparative numbers for JF-17 Block-I being equivalent to 80% to F-16C/D Block 50/52+ at such a low cost is indeed an achievement of Titanic proportions. And not only that, rather development and integration of the future blocks as per PAF's needs means the A/C could end up becoming one extremely lethal, mean machine attuned for deadly pilots of PAF and technologically being right up there with elites of the aviation Industry. This in itself becomes a massive selling point and, things start to make sense in regards to potential global market as well as in pakistan's immediate neighbourhood. This project has indeed been a boon and blessing for pakistan, helping its infant Aerospace Industry usher in new era and writing a new chapter in its history. I assume the Pakistani input in Chengdu J-10 project which later evolved it into J-10B is the direct result of experience gained by PAC, during 15 years -and counting- of work on JF-17 project?

You should really keep in mind that the JF_17 will likely face TEJAS, MiG-29 or 27 in a war with India, Mirage 2000 at best! The Su-30 and Rafale if/when MMRCA comes thru will be for China? Which then explains why numbers are just about meaningless outside of scenarii and strategic tactical considerations. Let's be honest that if a new war had India and Pakistan facing each other and no one else involved or intervening so that both used all their might, in the air, India would win if only by attrition of numbers of the PAF fighters?

I agree with the outlined engagement scenerio of Thunder facing the said A/Cs in Indian inventory and, India winning in an isolated air conflict purely on the attrition of numbers. But what I do not agree with is India stocking and reserving the 4++ and 5th Gen: A/C ONLY for China. Although this arguement seems quite valid in reference to Indian ICBMs but, not for jets as old air conflict strategies have been completely discarded in light of new technologies, weapon systems etc available. And if not that then, IAF knows for the fact that PAF is capable of inflicting some serious damage even in conventional warfare as it is now, which could have detrimental effects on its economy in the long term leaving her incapable of waging war vs China. Then why would India risk absorbing such devastation, instead of using its shiny new jets which could drastically reduce the casualties as well as cost of war? That in my humble opinion, doesn't make any sense at all.

And speaking of China, why on earth would it ever want to go to war with India anyway? Doesn't it got enough hostile neighbours of her own ? Its in China's best interests to keep India firmly focused on us! And its actually India which is becoming overly ambitious too quickly, too soon. Of course, there's a huge part of WEST in it too but, let's leave it for another discussion .

Moving on to your plan for it.
There are two problems with your idea, IMHoO. First, selling relatively recent US planes is harder than it seems. You'd have to sell these to a nation that the USA fully supports otherwise they'd quickly become useless for lack of support, bombs, parts, etc? Those are rare as if they have the money for it, the US will prefer to sell them new planes or barring that sell them used ones from the USAF?
The second bug is that as long as the USA meaningfully services the F-16s sold to the PAF, they should be kept in function to fight in the scenario outlined above of facing India.

We can't sell them, we can't live without them. LOL! Goes to tell you the kind of relations we enjoy with one of our oldest ally, USA. Thus, I'm inclined to share the sentiments of my fellow Pakistanis regarding sanctions prone American equipment and, need for indigenisation and diversification.

The alternative that I would favor goes towards sales of the JF-17 itself? I did write in the export thread that too much should not be expected but there is a market, you know? Any Nation not wanting to align to RU-China and too poor to get the expensive Western toys ( Raffy-Typhie or even Gripen ) should consider the Thunder. Just think that even the South Africans are finding their Gripens expensive to run? And let's keep in mind that most rich Muslim nations buy Western uber-jets and that selling to Iran would break the bond with America?

From this, we can draw a plan :
1- state a neutral selling strategy : not to rogue states nor religiously driven;
2- plan to use the proceeds to fuel development of the JF-17's blocks thus insuring new (re-)orders;
3- put the rest of the money in the future aircraft of the PAF whether that be a buy or ideally a co-development again but this time on equal footing or with Pakistan as main designer?

That would already be a big and quick step-up! Most countries that tried either failed or took much longer? As for the market itself, Argentina or heck, even Afghanistan could be prospects. Granted that the tensions with your neighbor contradict that last idea but that is in fact one way to subdue them? IE. They'd be relying on **** help and you'd have little to fear from their AF?
Still, elsewhere as in Africa there could be markets opening. As a matter of fact, unless an agreement with China was signed, places on the continent that can't afford J-10s or align to the Chinese would likely be fine with the Thunder for a reasonable self-defence force. In addition to which, if the PAF uses its image of having professional quality pilots, some could be sent along to fly the things as many African nations do not have those?

I know all this seems to run far into the future and that your proposal carries more weight at the moment ( except for selling the F-16s really ) but it is with vision that one builds tomorrow. Anything else is merely growing old?

Talk to you soon, have a great day, Tay.

I'm in total agreement with you sir but, a few recent diplomatic breakthroughs do create openings and opportunities that should be cashed in aggressively. Like the recent Iran Nuclear Deal, which America went ahead with in face of severe opposition from Israel and Saudi Arabia. It resulted in loosening of sanctions and resumptions of dialogue decades after the Iranian revolution. It is indicative of US's will to pursue better relationships with the oil rich country to better support and sustain its own dwindling economy which recently went into "shut down." Furthermore, the fact that USA has showed its interest to divert its NATO supplies via Iran instead of Pakistan is another indication of an effort to improve diplomatic ties. Therefore, I think its paramount for Pakistan to take full advantage of the space created to exercise some backdoor diplomatic maneuvering for strong lobbying of Iran-Pakistan Gas Pipeline Project, which we need not just to overcome our crippling energy crisis. But, also as a foundation for building new, sustainable, long term relationship with Iran encompassing cooperation at strategic level.

So far stars seems to be aligning well for Pakistan as at recent ECO summit, Islamabad successfully engaged Tehran which agreed for renegotiation of terms and tariff of IP Gas Pipeline. Additionally, there has been news(rumors?) flying around of an anonymous state which isn't a traditional friend of Pakistan, providing 1 $Billion for construction of the pipeline inside our borders. If I was to assume anything then, I'd say that this is all happening with the blessings of United States.

Thus, contradicting your point, Iran may very well become one of the biggest future potential market for JF-17. Of course, this is all theory and too many uncertainties but, like you said yourself,"It is with vision that one builds tomorrow. Anything else is merely growing old."

Furthermore, peace is in our best interest as striving for it today is the only guaranteed way of reaping its dividends tomorrow in form of prosperity. And its equally true for our another neighbour, Afghanistan. Speaking of whom, you made some very excellent and compelling points as having strong trade and defence ties is the only way of attaining mutual understanding and lasting peace. And last week's visit of Premier Nawaz to kabul where he offered greater and active Pakistani cooperation (access to Mulla Brother/peace talks with talibaan etc) as well as support for nation building ($20 Million) is an effort directed towards just that.

Besides, there's no other nation that can play as vital a role in building peaceful and stable Afghanistan as Pakistan, because of our cultural similarities, geology, history and religion. And warranting the stability, pakistan can pledge an utmost support in defence which comprise not just military training but, also military hardware at very cost effective budget that include rifles and bullets to tanks and jets.

So ya, Afghanistan could become another very, very lucrative market not just for JF-17s but an array of military hardware.

Apart from that, I am in complete agreement with your three point sell, development and market strategy .

On the side note, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask you two more questions;

1. What is your opinion of J10-B/FC20 as a combat aircraft overall and vs Pakistani F-16? I'm asking this because there is lots of debate here in this forum for its induction in PAF. And also, I recently read a Chinese member @jack_zx who said, "Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number." Because,"Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards)." For better read/understanding, please visit here. Your comments?
2. Its about Chengdu J20 and Shenyang J31 actually, i.e., Which one is better for Pakistan? The reason why I ask this is because, many a member vote for J31 which is a multirole stealth 5th Gen: A/C designed as an alternate for F-35. Whereas, I differ on the basis that EVERYTHING in our inventory so far is bought, designed on this very philosophy and, it'll continue to get even better with future blocks of JF-17 and induction -if ever- of FC20. J20 on the other hand is being designed as 5th Gen: Air Superiority Fighter. Don't you think we've enough of multirole A/C and, its J20 we need particularly to thwart off the threat of HAL FGFA in future or any such aggression via Indian MMRCA?

Thanks a million for going through my lengthy post. Would you believe that I've REALLY tried to make it as short and sweet and concise as possible ? LOL!

Thanks for your time and your and comments of senior members and participators are a source of infinite wisdom. Thanks all.

Peace.

 

[Taygibay]

Hello back Drebin! I fully understand about any delays as I have an "analog" life too ( and sort of pity the poor devils that don't )! In fact, I was feeling sorry myself for not having answered you quicker and even mentioned you on my blog in yesterday's Post, LOL shaming myself for my laziness.

Your first reply is fine. There is very little to add. Indeed, the important thing in any project (civilian or military ) is to make progress over the previous attempt, something so many folks do not understand. In that regard, the collaboration with China was just what the doctor recommended. It allowed to get a decent bird with a decent lifetime ahead of it that could incrementally be brought to previous levels of the PAF at a decent price all the while developing the design skills of the **** aero engineers.
I understand why some Indians would boast of the LCA program as being so much more but that is an improper comparison. The question is how much ones progresses ( which in turn depends on where one was to begin with ) and at what cost. If one gets a tit for that in the replacement over the previous fighter and learns 50% of what it did not know for a given amount, the other getting an identical replacement and learning 75% of what it did not know only "won" if the amount invested is balanced out ( around 50% more $ )?
As you surmised, if the learning curve has carried on to a participation in the J-10B, then the payback is kept alive ( skills are preserved over time ). I sadly lack any worthy source to confirm that. Do you have a serious link to procure to me about such a participation. Mine, from China, only mention Chinese involvement. Recent infos even show some Sino reluctance on the J-10 sales to Pakistan.
完全原创--专访歼10总设计师宋文骢院士[图]--军事频道-中华网-中国最大职业人士门户
J-10 aircraft not exported to Pakistan over license issue, says China | Terminal X

On the F-16 issue, again, you understood me perfectly. Yup, the Yanks are often hiding the intent of not allowing not only use but even more so progression of their allies industrial base behind sales.
This is why France since De Gaulle spent so much on maintaining a fully independent Mili Arms sector. As a matter of fact, the F-16 in its earliest form was sold to many European nations that had aero makers and later closed them. The idea of shutting down the competition both for dominance & future profit purposes still exists in the F-35 BTW. It may maintain jobs and some capacities in Canada or Turkey to have joined it but it clearly hurts the British for instance. While they got a big share of the work, it almost makes BAe and others subsidiaries of American MIC firms? And if they do not go into a next gen. plan for ACs with the Germans/Italians/Spanish nor accept a less than 50% chance of the design in their new collaboration with the French, it will likely make them unable to build a warplane 100% by themselves ever again.
Learning from such mistakes in Pakistan's case might offer this prospective view : do not commit yourselves entirely to the Chinese channel of coop work. It may be as simple as finding a partner to build say a UAV/UCAV or trainer plane with to keep the design studios at work. But if independence is the ultimate goal, it has to be done! Brazil's Embraer, Turkey, KAI maybe? Or bringing together Muslim nations although that is a bit far fetched ( Gulf ones for funds and best Asian ones for work? ). Just diversify your alliances! It is the price of survival IMHoO!

On that last point, I'd skip directly to your analysis concerning Iran. All of it seems fine to me ( and I do see why a special relationship between you and them is a natural on many aspects ) except for one thing. Do not count on JF-17 sales soon! The adverb being the focal point here, you should be very wary of expecting too much in terms of openings between the West and Allies regarding Teheran. The sanctions for instance are still in place. At the last deal on their nuclear power which I treated on Definitive Lapse of Reason, they gained a modest softening of the worst ones only and only in a temporary manner ( 6 months )? The harsh stance of the Revolutionary Guards on Israel's right to existence will be a major blocking point for a long time to come as it periodically resurfaces. And the Muslim oil-rich Nations that opposes Iran for religious reasons also benefit from these sanctions on a commercial standpoint which makes 2 reasons to one ( Dislike of the Jewish state ) for them to keep running back to siding with the US / West at the first sign of problem?
From a geo-political PoV, I'd be very surprised if sales of fighters by Islamabad to Teheran were to happen in the next decade ( or if so, without severe cost in support from Western countries to Pakistan, USA most of all! ).

On the Indian part, there are many considerations left unanswered. As the Tejas nears its induction ( confirmed for December 20th ), the question of how much it can do is soon to be clarified. If it gets anywhere near the value of the pre-udpate of the M-2000H which lays a lot on its avionics and EW suite, I think that you can expect it to the spearhead of actions against Pakistan in a possible conflict. Of course, some Su-MKI and Rafales will be thrown in but not that many? If you look at it dispassionately which in your case might understandably be difficult, a small number of 30s up high and Rafales in penetration would do immense damage to the PAF simply on a platform vs platform standpoint and despite the recognized abilities of its pilots. And while you mention ICMBs in the Chinese scenario, these would also be available to reach your own land? ( About which I hope that we both mean conventional warheads ones as there is a reason why nukes have only been used once in history? )
If you admit this, you will then find out why the fear of a two-front war is so prevalent in Indian posts and on their own fora! First, China could base some of its fighters in Pakistan and second, the superiority in numbers the IAF retains over you guys and the relative balance it has with China alone would then fall to a minority rapport? Which also brings in your remark about China not really wanting a war with Bharat? I'd agree in general with that view save for one thing : the quality of the relations India entertains with other Asian nations. IF they'd join India then the Chinese would avoid the conflict and concentrate on Japan and the seas as it is doing now. Then again, it is simply impossible for now to imagine a war between the Celestial Empire & the 3 majors on the Pacific front ( Jp/Ko/Phil ) as the US will not stand by idly if it happens. ( Taïwan? Remote possibility there but very remote. ) Again, I made a 2 parts Post on that as it would be a WWIII type of thing.
What I am trying to convey here is this : the next war between China and a neighbour is entirely circumstantial until it happens? If a situation arises to allow it and China is ready, yes but it would be utter presumption to state where and when that will spring up at present. The China seas have the edge for now.

And so finally, about Avic's actual workhorse the J-10 and its successor the J-10. As you have seen from the above link, the J-10's appearance in the PAF is not confirmed and thus, the J-20 even less?
And yes, I'd believe what you heard, namely that the presence of the 10-B would have a good marketing value for the Chinese industry. But let me mitigate that though. It has such value UNTIL the Chinese find a buyer? Not to disparage the PAF as we agree that its professionalism IS recognized but simply to compound my previous take on alliances? There are 3 good reasons for the J-10 to be offered to Pakistan. One, the PAF's renown, visibility bonus! Two, it makes it an exported plane, commercial bonus! Three, sales to a country that already operates recent American planes would make it seen as broadly equivalent, marketing bonus?

Big IF however! How good is that aircraft? It flies, fine! It has a modern design if only by virtue of being a bastard copy ... child of the EF and/or Lavi, oki! But what else? I mean, I have seen the Chinese aerobatics team on it and it did not impress me as being anywhere near a top Sukhoi or Raffy? And what's more important, crucial even, how good if any are the electronics onboard? If I had to state an honest reservation about the present day Chinese productions, that would be it! Not to say that it is absolutely certain that is way backward but seriously, I'd have to find reports from even an exercise with modern fighters telling of its prowess in detection and counter-measures and EW and so on before trusting all the nice hype from Beijing and Chengdu/Harbin/etc. Copying russian jets and motors or French helos and motors is one thing but making state of the art equipment is another. As such, until I have proof to the contrary, the j-20-31 et al are but empty shells to boost propaganda! When they fire missiles or bombs in anger at long-distance hard to reach targets in a disputed environment, we'll see?
Which begs the question : why would Pakistan want a dummy?
Let us not loose ourselves in speculations, my poor Drebin. The PAF has a present to take care of. The Defence Minister should be keeping ahead of the future, true, but until even the PAK_fgFA gets anywhere near serial production, worries about India's stealth arsenal are premature? Heck, in all truth, even the F-35 still hasn't shown real worth except moneywise

Or is that money UNwise LMAO ...

I gotta run but will come back to check on you soon, have a great day and all the best to you & yours, Tay.

 

[MilSpec]

How many of JF17/FC1 sub systems are being manufactured in/by PAC?

 

[TaimiKhan]

How many of JF17/FC1 sub systems are being manufactured in/by PAC?

Search JF-17 information pool and other main JF-17 main thread. All the information given in it. Even some of the info provided on PAC official thread.

 

[nomi007]

Search JF-17 information pool and other main JF-17 main thread. All the information given in it. Even some of the info provided on PAC official thread.

which sq is going to add new jf-17

 

[TaimiKhan]

which sq is going to add new jf-17

Most probably someone which is nearly by to Kamra or already in Kamra.

I have heard about the No.14 Sqd too, they are in Kamra, best that all 3 Sqds are very much nearby.

 

[Abdul haq Bhanbhro]

Any body tell me that when will be announced Pakistan Air force jobs to require Matric qualification ....

 

[Introvert]

Since now we have 50 JF17, how many old PAF fighter jets (Mirage III, F 7, A5 etc) will be decomissioned.

 

[khanasifm]

Selex ES targets 'affordable' AESA market with Grifo-E

Selex ES targets 'affordable' AESA market with Grifo-E - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Ra'ad]

Hi,
Regarding the designation of upgraded models of aircraft, what is the difference between blocks and ABCD model designations. Both represent upgraded models.

Like our upgraded thunder is called block 2, while the Chinese are naming their upgraded j10 as j10a, j10b, j10c.

And for that matter, the f16 we bought is block52 and C/D. Do these separate designations show separate upgrades?

 

[Taygibay]

Hello Ra'ad. I can partially answer you. Block 2 is an evolution which is somewhat different from an upgrade. An evolution is a new way of making the plane with new components or capabilities whereas an upgrade is done on existing planes. The same more or less goes for the J-10.
As far as the F-16 is concerned however you should decouple the block from the letters. A/B is a single seat to two-seats distinction between the original Fighting Falcons to the C/D one for the evolved or redesigned later version and stands again for the E/F case.
Blocks instead concern the equipment onboard and is similar to block for the Thunder. Some blocks however are indicative of production variants.
For instance, A/B block 20 are old planes brought up to Block 50-52 level save the capacities that couldn't fit. But E/F block 60s for their part are a specific development on the C/D models with a different radar APG-80, engine dash 132 instead of 129, Falcon Edge EW suite, ASRAAM & SLAM missiles and a fiber-optics bus that was only delivered to the UAE.
In all, there are nearly 50 variants of the F-16, more if you count test and development ones!!!
Pakistani F-16 are the next to last new build models to the UAE ones so very top of the line except that other Falcons of the second series could be updated to that level through an MLU type procedure.

To compare with two present non-US birds, the EF-Typhoon comes in three Tranches or production/delivery variants that are not fully compatible whereas the Rafale comes in many more Standards that are all retrofitted, meaning that any made in the past only needs to go through a refurbish at worst or service overhaul within the AF to acquire the latest standard's evolutions.

It is thus a bit tough to follow because designations vary in meaning from one manufacturer or place to the other.

Good day to you and all, Tay.

 

[fatman17]

Since now we have 50 JF17, how many old PAF fighter jets (Mirage III, F 7, A5 etc) will be decomissioned.

36-40 A-5's already replaced - 2 squadrons.
its most likely the 3rd JFT squadron will replace a Mirage III squadron.

 

[khanasifm]

PAK FA stealth features patent published - IHS Jane's 360
PAK FA stealth features patent published - IHS Jane's 360

This profile view of the PAK FA illustrates the extensive shaping that has been done in an effort to reduce the usual radar-returning traps around the air intakes. Source: Sukhoi
Details of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's work on the stealthy aspects of the T-50 PAK FA fighter aircraft emerged in late December 2013, when the company's patents were published.

According to the patent paperwork, taken together, all of the stealthy measures offer significant improvements over legacy fighter designs. The papers claim that the radar cross-section (RCS) of an Su-27 was in the order of 10-15 m 2 , with the intention being to reduce the size of the RCS in the T-50 to an "average figure of 0.1-1 m 2 ".

In common with other low observable aircraft designs, this reduction is achieved throught the use of radar-absorbing and radar-shielding materials and coatings, panel shaping (especially around the air intakes) and in the design of the junctions between moving elements, such as flaps and hatches.

In particular, the patent spells out the benefits of internal weapons carriage, s-shaped engine air ducts, (which were considered but are actually not implemented in the production PAK FA), and the use of radar blockers. It adds that the inlet guide vanes of the engines' compressors generate "a significant portion [up to 60%] of the radar cross-section of the airframe-powerplant system in the forward hemisphere" and that this is reduced by using radar-blocking devices and radar-absorbing coatings in the walls of the air ducts.

The shape of the airframe reduces the number of directions that radar signals are reflected in with the angles of sweep of the wings and the tail plane's leading and trailing edges, the edges of the air intakes and hatch covers being reduced and deflected from the aircraft's axis. Viewing the aircraft from the flank, the fuselage sides, lateral edges of the air intakes and vertical empennage are all deflected at the same angle.

Some openings and slots on the airframe's surface - such as the boundary-layer bleeds on the sides of the air intakes and the openings on the upper fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit - are covered with a thick grid, featuring a mesh of less than one quarter of the wavelength of a search radar, which reduces the reflections from these uneven surfaces. Gaps between the airframe elements are filled with conducting sealants, while the glazing of the cockpit canopy is metallised.

The surfaces of the PAK FA's own five radar arrays are also angled off from the vertical plane, helping to 'deflect' enemy radar signals. The covers of the radar arrays are selective, letting through their own signals, but blocking other frequencies. Additionally, the array compartments are edged with radar-absorbing 'curtains' to reduce possible leaks of these amplified signals.

Antennas are recessed from the surface of the skin to reduce protuberances (the vertical empennage serves as a communications antenna), while the turret of the aircraft's nose-mounted infrared search-and-track (IRST) sight is rotated backwards into a cruise position, exposing its rear hemisphere, which is covered with a radar-absorbing coating.

The release of this list of patents follows the July 2013 release of documentation covering the configuration of the fighter's integrated avionics suite.

There are currently five T-50 prototypes - the latest, T-50-5, first flew on 27 October 2013 - supporting the development programme and they are believed to have undertaken over 300 sorties to date.

In the 'Schedule of Activity for the Russian Ministry of Defence for 2013 to 2020' published in mid-2013, the PAK FA's Initial Operational Capability and the launch of full-scale series production is scheduled for 31 December 2016. The Russian National Armament Programme stipulates that 60 production PAK FA fighters will be delivered between 2016 and 2020.

The assembly of aircraft T-50-6-1 is nearing completion and three further aircraft (T-50-6-2, T-50-7 and T-50-8) are in build. One of the T-50-6 aircraft is intended for static trials and the other one is intended for flight testing.

The PAK FA's designers have paid close attention to stealthy features, which include the use of radar-absorbent coatings on the reverse of the nose-mounted IRST, the widespread use of baffles and the use of absorbent coatings in the air intakes and at the junctions between moving surfaces. (Sukhoi)
(632 words)

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

damn nigga, thats a nice piece....

i wonder if any of our PAF boys do Breitling watches

 

[farhanalee7]

Is that true that PAF will become 2 Planes Airforce JF-17 and F-16???