Air Force Question Thread

[Gentelman]

I am quite skeptical about the Britain offered aesa part!!

forum.*********************/index.php?showtopic=54339
defence form India in LCA and JF-17 comparison thread
wiki
Jf-17 fb page
rupee news
rupeenews.com/2012/01/beyond-pakistani-made-jf-17-thunders/
and in 2-3 magzines i read about that...
1of the magzine was Global Science in urdu language....

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

5th gen aircraft for paf is a little too far fetched---there are too many growing pains with this aircraft----too many technical issues-----pak is better off for a while with a true 4.5 gen aircraft---missiles and radar systems to counter the 5th gen.

Muse:----I don't have a problem people disagreeing with me on the jf17 issue---. Just because it is a replacement for he A5's and mirage 3 / 5 does not mean it had to be ordinary----the A5 and mirage 3 /5 were obsolete pieces of equipment---.

Most of you will agree with me in another 2---3 years.

Any aircraft that was needed to be replaced should have been of a minimum capability of the F16 Blk 52 in the current stage or in MLU upgrade----not a test bed----.

Paks need to get their heads out of the tar---when you face an enemy the size of india---you don't go manufacturing a test bed---you need something that will work for you and fight for you NOW------you may decide to develop something on the side and that is fine.

WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU PAKS TO UNDERSTAND THAT ANALOGY-----that is how nations act----. But then you have proved many a times that 'you are not a nation'---.

 

[Pfpilot]

Pfpilot,

My assessment is that paf got carried away by the idea of the JF 17---a plane manufactured by an air force for an air force---. They were pis-sed of at the americans and they wanted to show the americans that the paf could not be messed with-----an utter stupidity on the part of paf---.

All the planning of the paf got shoved right up when the americans told the french not to proceed with the radar and electronics package for the jf17---.

Jf 17 would have been a good idea for a state with no serious worries from an enemy state----just to play around develop the technology--but to make this aircraft the backbone of the pak airforce and then failing with the project and not supplying the state of an air worthy and a tactically capable air craft in A TIMELY FASHION is tantamount to gross negligence rather treason.

When I first heard about the concept of an Air Force directly involved in the development of a fighter aircraft, it set the alarm bells ringing. That initial shock doesn't seem unwarranted when the PAF seems directly involved in marketing and selling aircraft and hasn't exactly done the best job. The indigenous production of any kind of product should first meet the criteria of demand; a large domestic demand and opportunities for international expansion. Even if the second point is less relevant initially, domestic demand should be accounted for. Pakistan's requirement isn't huge, nor is Pakistan able to pay for the jf-17s being procured. What you have is a fighter subsidized by the Chinese government, hardly the way a local development should go.

On the other hand, the criticisms of the technological capabilities of the jf-17s have little to do with the aircraft itself. The lack of air superiority option and limited number of f-16s lead to the jf-17s being perceived as the be all and end all of PAF capability. Were we in possession of a larger f-16 fleet or even a sizable j-10 force, this conversation would not be happening. That raises a couple of questions: is it the jf-17 that fails in what it was developed for? Or is it the lack of developments in augmenting the capabilities it offers?

I agree with your sentiments. But find I am sometimes guilty of placing the short comings of the PAF directly at the feet of the jf-17. As one of the very few tangible developments of the PAF in the last two decades, it may just be an easy target because the PAF doesn't possess anything else of value to even point a finger at.

@Pfpilot and @MastanKhan, Maybe Jft is an interim option along with the limited f16's til the 2020 and then PAF might have a bigger plans of fielding , mix of J20's and j31 or unspecified chinese 5th gen a/c against perdominantly 4/4.5th gen IAf with few 5th gen pakfa's... PAF might just pull a fast one on IAF...

The question is of money. Otherwise, even the most short sighted developments can be glossed over. Pakistan doesn't have the kind of money in the present, nor the medium term forecast for sizable economic growth in the future. Under such circumstances, a scenario in which the PAF can field a force with a significant 5th gen component seems far fetched.

 

[fatman17]

@Pfpilot, @muse.
the other thing to note is 'upgrades'. generally within 2-3 years after uinduction of the base model, upgrades are undertaken to keep the platform 'upto date' with contemporary adversaries. EFT is already undergoing Tranche I and II upgrades. so will Rafale and Gripen as their numbers increase (esp. for export). similarly the JFT program is doing exactly the same. 50 Blk-I, and now the Blk-II program will start and so on. depending on need and funds availability, the Blk-i's would be upgraded to Blk-II. granted the JFT will not be compared to the likes of EFT, Rafale etc but it was never supposed to be - the JFT was designed to counter india's LCA program. the PAF will need to decide quickly to increase their F-16' assets or purchase the J-10B in large numbers for their high end aircraft.

 

[Armstrong]

@Pfpilot, @muse.
the other thing to note is 'upgrades'. generally within 2-3 years after uinduction of the base model, upgrades are undertaken to keep the platform 'upto date' with contemporary adversaries. EFT is already undergoing Tranche I and II upgrades. so will Rafale and Gripen as their numbers increase (esp. for export). similarly the JFT program is doing exactly the same. 50 Blk-I, and now the Blk-II program will start and so on. depending on need and funds availability, the Blk-i's would be upgraded to Blk-II. granted the JFT will not be compared to the likes of EFT, Rafale etc but it was never supposed to be - the JFT was designed to counter india's LCA program. the PAF will need to decide quickly to increase their F-16' assets or purchase the J-10B in large numbers for their high end aircraft.

I remember asking @Oscar, something along the lines of, how far does the PAF envision the JF-17 to be upgradeable to & he said, unless I'm mistaken, roughly comparable to F-16 Block 40s ! @Oscar : I do apologize if I've misquoted you & do correct me, if you will !

However if the Block 40 thing is taken to be the truth than shouldn't that be an admirable 'low' ? Shouldn't a 'mid' tier of our current crop of F-16s be sufficient & shouldn't we be looking into the J-31 as a possible 'High' end platform ? Or even the Indonesian, Turkish & Korean 5th Generation aircraft that are proposed to be designed & manufactured ?

 

[niaz]

It all does boils down ‘FUNDS’. Understand the 3rd squadron of JF17 is not yet fully operational and development of Thunder block 2 is also delayed.

Everyone must understand that Pak economy is in real bad shape and under these circumstances we should not expect our wish list to be fulfilled. Like it or not this is the ground reality.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Moderators i don't know where else to post it, you may move it to appropriate Thread.

Feb 25 2013
F-7PG being tested in Flight Test Center, China. But I thought PG was for PAF, what is going on anyone?

 

[SQ8]

Moderators i don't know where else to post it, you may move it to appropriate Thread.

Feb 25 2013
F-7PG being tested in Flight Test Center, China. But I thought PG was for PAF, what is going on anyone?

Testbed for F-7BGI

 

[Luftwaffe]

Oscar where do i move this image i don't want to upload it to some image site but it is ok if uploaded and managed by defence.pk

South Korean F-5 Freedom Fighter checked out by PAF, 1987.

http://sdrv.ms/XczFi1

South Korean F-4D Phantom II checked out by PAF, 1987.

http://sdrv.ms/YBpD5N

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

few questions, @sancho , @gambit , @Oscar
@ptldM3


@Abingdonboy
or anybody who is pretty sure about it.
1. Is there any solid state aesa jammer on board on any fighter jet ?
2. can anti radiation missile lock on to aesa radar signals and home on ?
3. is anti radiation missiles needs to be guided by any other active method till the anti radiation seeker gets activated ? if yes at what distance ?
4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?

 

[Thorough Pro]

Sorry this is confidential info, can not be shared on this forum.

few questions, @sancho , @gambit , @Oscar
@ptldM3


@Abingdonboy
or anybody who is pretty sure about it.
1. Is there any solid state aesa jammer on board on any fighter jet ?
2. can anti radiation missile lock on to aesa radar signals and home on ?
3. is anti radiation missiles needs to be guided by any other active method till the anti radiation seeker gets activated ? if yes at what distance ?
4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Sorry this is confidential info, can not be shared on this forum.

well then keep it with yourself.

 

[SQ8]

few questions, @sancho , @gambit , @Oscar
@ptldM3


@Abingdonboy
or anybody who is pretty sure about it.
1. Is there any solid state aesa jammer on board on any fighter jet ?
2. can anti radiation missile lock on to aesa radar signals and home on ?
3. is anti radiation missiles needs to be guided by any other active method till the anti radiation seeker gets activated ? if yes at what distance ?
4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?

1. An AESA radar can be theoretically used as a jammer as well. Both the APG-79 and APG-81 have this capability near testing phase.

2. As long as the AESA is not emitting in LPI mode. Yes.

3. Datalinks are possible between launch platform and missile. but as such emission are enough to give the missle a bearing to go to..

4. The radar on aircraft has trouble locking onto fighters such as the F-22.. However.. if it gets close enough.. there is a high possibility that the seeker can lock onto an aircraft which has certain non-stealthy sections like the J-20 or PAK-FA

 

[Donatello]

It all does boils down ‘FUNDS’. Understand the 3rd squadron of JF17 is not yet fully operational and development of Thunder block 2 is also delayed.

Everyone must understand that Pak economy is in real bad shape and under these circumstances we should not expect our wish list to be fulfilled. Like it or not this is the ground reality.

Funds should have been appropriated before the program began. Funds that no one can touch except JF-17 program.

Testbed for F-7BGI

Same as PAF's F-7PG?

We have the Italian radars, right?

 

[sancho]

1. An AESA radar can be theoretically used as a jammer as well. Both the APG-79 and APG-81 have this capability near testing phase.

I think what you are talking about is electronic attack / jamming capabilities of AESA radars, which we will see in the coming years in the US and also European AESAs (under development for Rafale and EF), but Agnostic_Indian might talk about AESA jammers, as part of the EW equipment.
These are available today in the Rafale, or the EF for example, certain EW jamming pods and I guess his question is hinted on the reports about Indian upgrade and new fighters will have similar techs as well (Mig 29UPG, Super 30 and even LCA), but they are not yet part of any fighter and might depend on cost as well.