Air Commodore (R) Sayed Sajad Haider: How the US Evaded Air Defence System

[SQ8]

Ouch! That pretty much guarantees that we will play victim again, in the NEAR future -- I think it's better to not be fatalistic, there is nothing impossible as long as there is a WILL to overcome - whatever comes from these incidences such as operation Geronimo, you can be sure that unless Pakistan make a determination that it will not accept the language of force from anybody, that soon the peoples of the country will see little need to ideas such as armies and such.

Like the Us Air Force recruiting motto says: Aim High

Well.. I did not elaborate on "other" options vis a vis the US..
just that taking them on in conventional warfare today is folly.

 

[Safriz]

yes and no..
the radars have been updated
this is what you use today
AN/TPS-77 Tactical Transportable Radar System | Lockheed Martin

the older American systems were updated to this.
AN/TPS-75 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other Chinese radars work alongside them.. so whilst the radar's arent 70's.. they arent all 21st century either..
the network that links them is 21st century.. however.. that still does not offer you protection from advanced jamming techniques used by the Americans..
They wrote the book on it after all... along with the Israeli's.

We are... and will for some time, remain 60 years behind the Americans a a whole..
So to expect to outwit them.. is expecting too much..
let us keep our conventional offensives against India..

oh well...we are doomed..

 

[SQ8]

oh well...we are doomed..

O ye who have little faith..
I mentioned "conventional" conflict..
which does not include dirty jobs.. shutting off supplies.. turning a blind eye to incursions.. etc.

Our advantage is that we are slowly moving away from American tech..
right now though.. yeah.. we are doomed if we take the US on conventionally.
The way to bring down an empire.. is to hit it unconventionally..
The difference with the Americans is that unlke the British or the Spanish empires.. they do have resources on their mainland as well.
Which means they can sustain their operations even if one hits their Persian supply lines.
What to do then.. is a different debate..
and is a little fantastic..
The problem with shooting down drones.. and/or helicopters is.. that the US might hit us using a B-2.. and pretty much lay waste to our capability via-a-vis India..

 

[Safriz]

O ye who have little faith..
I mentioned "conventional" conflict..
which does not include dirty jobs.. shutting off supplies.. turning a blind eye to incursions.. etc.

lol...ok...
so however hypothetical,but what are the solutions you can think of?
lets start with how they jam.....?

 

[nightcrawler]

The problem is not the Su MKI or a guided missile attack but the aftermath effects which really counts.
This the both sides know. And regarding the Su 30 attacking and returning I think the THINK TANKS can shed some light.

Now the Radar part is yes U were right and wrong. The US knew almost everything about ur Radars. In Vietnam things were happening as U mentioned but it did change in the later part of the war. The US effectively used the Wild weasle for SEAD missions.

They weren't entirely successful

 

[SQ8]

lol...ok...
so however hypothetical,but what are the solutions you can think of?
lets start with how they jam.....?

Their Radar jamming is based these days on the ALQ-99.. which over the years has been upgraded with ESA and allows for a mix of sweep and barrage jamming..
The ALQ-99 also has limited communications jamming capability, however with the introduction of newer radio system for the PAF which is jam "resistant".. it may not work as effectively.
The American radars that we have.. and others that are conventional mechanical scanned systems stand little chance against focused jamming.. The Chinese PESA radars may be effective for a few minutes or so till the US emitters adapt.
The ACE in the hole we have is our Erieye..and to a certain extent the Chinese AWACS. . their AESA elements can survive intense jamming.. and even if faced with degrading performance for their AESA.. can use their passive sensors to detect the source of jamming and direct interceptors to it.

There is however the EC-130 to jam our communications.. especially the link between fighters and GC.. and whilst the newer radio's offer some resistance to the system.. with three crypto analysts on board.. any prolonged exposure to the system will compromise our security.. and render our radio's useless.

 

[Donatello]

Is it just me or the fact that USA has gone completely silent on the issue of Islamic Republic of Iran. Like WTF is going on?

I believe Pakistan can play the Iran tactics......i doubt if we really need USA anymore.

The billions in Aid didn't help much either and we survived international sanctions for more than a decade.....so i don't see how much worse Pakistan can be in.

USA will invade? I doubt.......Afghan war costs em 100 billion every year....Pakistan would be at least 3 times that.........they are broke. Time is now.

 

[nightcrawler]

Their Radar jamming is based these days on the ALQ-99.. which over the years has been upgraded with ESA and allows for a mix of sweep and barrage jamming..
The ALQ-99 also has limited communications jamming capability, however with the introduction of newer radio system for the PAF which is jam "resistant".. it may not work as effectively.
The American radars that we have.. and others that are conventional mechanical scanned systems stand little chance against focused jamming.. The Chinese PESA radars may be effective for a few minutes or so till the US emitters adapt.
The ACE in the hole we have is our Erieye..and to a certain extent the Chinese AWACS. . their AESA elements can survive intense jamming.. and even if faced with degrading performance for their AESA.. can use their passive sensors to detect the source of jamming and direct interceptors to it.

There is however the EC-130 to jam our communications.. especially the link between fighters and GC.. and whilst the newer radio's offer some resistance to the system.. with three crypto analysts on board.. any prolonged exposure to the system will compromise our security.. and render our radio's useless.

Sir Santro your replies are really true to bone...
However, may I ask that provided the US can & would (if time comes) jam our radars..wouldnt we be warned that something is blanketing our surveillance? I mean atleast then we can mobilise some 5-6 aircrafts & look for intrusion. This would increase reaction time but because our territory isn't that spacious (like Soviets) can we atleast get our assets airborne & with some trial & error locate intrusion?


The above scenario don't applies to stealth...

 

[Donatello]

Sir Santro your replies are really true to bone...
However, may I ask that provided the US can & would (if time comes) jam our radars..wouldnt we be warned that something is blanketing our surveillance? I mean atleast then we can mobilise some 5-6 aircrafts & look for intrusion. This would increase reaction time but because our territory isn't that spacious (like Soviets) can we atleast get our assets airborne & with some trial & error locate intrusion?


The above scenario don't applies to stealth...

The last time i read, Colonel Zoltan Dani, who shot down F-117, was running a Bakery.......PAF might want to consider hiring him.

 

[DV RULES]

There is always way out from problem, the question over SAAB system efficiency quite interesting, what the use of these systems or they also just scrap we got for millions???

What you people think SAAB or coming ZDK can resist against jamming?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Syed Sajjad Hyder also exposed Ayub Khan role during 1965 War?

when I met him in Islamabad (and through his book) I observed he is very very critical of Field Marshalh Sahib and some of the other leaderships.

A very polished, well-spoken and immensely knowledgable gentleman I must say about him. He also had the honour of flying several of the early PAF aircrafts, from Sabres to Starfighters to Mirage-IIIs when they were brand new and just inducted.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

bring back Quaid e Azam Sahib's PAKISTAN

 

[arsalabbasi]

Its a new era & new technology. Radar jam is an old technique. Today is the era of Stealths.

 

[SQ8]

Sir Santro your replies are really true to bone...
However, may I ask that provided the US can & would (if time comes) jam our radars..wouldnt we be warned that something is blanketing our surveillance? I mean atleast then we can mobilise some 5-6 aircrafts & look for intrusion. This would increase reaction time but because our territory isn't that spacious (like Soviets) can we atleast get our assets airborne & with some trial & error locate intrusion?


The above scenario don't applies to stealth...

What you are suggesting is sending up our fighters blind on a wild goose chase..
unless or until they have a proper track to look for.. and in this case the JF would have the upper hand due to its Better RWR and ECM kit... you are still better off having them dive into the ground.
Not only will the US jets know you are there, they will still see you, and kill you from 30km out before you realize where the missile came from.

Now, will the above hold for an AESA equipped Jf or FC-20??
They might still see the American jets..and would hold a better chance to put up some sort of a fight.
Whilst their radars would still be degraded due to jamming.. the effect wont be as bad is it would on conventional radars.

Tackling the US military as an opponent means two things.. either come to their level of warfighting.. or force them down to yours..
Neither is easy to achieve.. and the US military is well led, well trained and has been fighting a lot.

 

[wild_fire1979]

For some reason people on this forum think that taking on US is like playing a video game level. They do not comprehend the level of sophistication on US end. Their ELINT capability alone allows them to create a battle space picture in real time. Something India or Pakistan can only dream of.

All this testosterone driven talk of sending fighter just reflects ignorance as opposed to bravado