Ahmedi community linked literature seized, printing press sealed

[M. Sarmad]

I personally dont see much of a difference in the definition given by scholars, but lets accept it, what was the role of this report during constitution drafting of 1973 ?
Also, would like to ask that now as the report dictates that there is no definition of a Muslim, would it also call Hindus, Christian, Jews and atheists as Muslims ?

You may or may not see anything

But the Chief Justice of Pakistan did observe that:

"Keeping in view the several definitions given by the ulama, need we make any comment except that no two learned divines are agreed on this fundamental? If we attempt our own definition, as each learned divine has done, and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the ulama, we remain Muslims according to the view of that alim, but kafirs according to the definition of everyone else."



No, it does not call Hindus, Christian, Jews or Atheists as Muslims ... Because they themselves say that they are not Muslim... Do you get it now ?.

 

[Hrk19]

Its not up to the state machinery to decide that.

he is not talking about state machinery
he means normal muslims preaching to other less informed muslims
not for money but for islam
he means you as a muslim,won't you feel bad seeing muslims going astray left and right in front of your eyes?

 

[Mansoon]

he is not talking about state machinery
he means normal muslims preaching to other less informed muslims
not for money but for islam
he means you as a muslim,won't you feel bad seeing muslims going astray left and right in front of your eyes?

So why did they ban Ahmedi Muslims preaching to other less informed Muslims about their religion?

 

[Well.wisher]

Its not up to the state machinery to decide that.

I don't know what you're talking about .
The thread has derailed a lot.

What u wanna say ?

 

[Mansoon]

I don't know what you're talking about .
The thread has derailed a lot.

What u wanna say ?

That its not business of state to decide who is Muslim and who is not.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Islam is our state's religion

There is no such thing as that. it is the retarded, intelligence deficient people who can believe this. A state is modern Western, legal concept born from European experiance after the Treaty of Westphalia. That is why some Islamic jurists opposed the creation of Pakistan because they posited that a nation state is contradictory to Islam.

Anyway after creating a Western, legal state, with institutions all borrowed or products of Britain like army, police, courts, law, the administrative system some joker to please some stupid mullahs placed the 'Islamic' prefix to protect Islam as if it is private property of Pakistan.

One wonders how Islam survived all those centuries when there was no Pakistan and most of it's people were no less than colonized slaves of the British. Now of course Islam can't survive without Pakistan, a country that survives of interest, loans and hand outs from the Western banks.

Some crazy logic there ....

 

[Mansoon]

No, it does not call Hindus, Christian, Jews or Atheists as Muslims ... Because they themselves say that they are not Muslim... Do you get it now ?.

Ahmedis were Muslims in Pakistan until 1973. In most of the world they are still Muslims.

 

[marj666]

Its not up to the state machinery to decide that.

maybe in a religion other than Islam it isn't up to state to uphold the religion ......but in Islam it is a duty of state to implement the rules

 

[Flash_Ninja]

You think following religion is a debate??? No it's simple rules .... Now you may not like some rule of Islam but it doesn't make it any less true or incompatible in our life , you may think of some reason to defy or to keep your mind at ease or to relieve yourself of duties but Islam is not gonna change for you or me

Can you honestly say you pray salat 5 times a day, lower the gaze when seeing a woman, and avoid music in your daly life?

No, then why do you not follow some rules of Islam and ignore others?

all scholars
go to any one near your house heck go to one in alazhar university
all of them say the apostate is to get the death penalty

Who? You still haven't given me names?

My dear brother , islam needs preachers .
If I want to preach on ahmadiyana that they're spreading lies about islam and prophet saww then what wrong am I doing here ? I want to aware people through every possible way I can of this filth lie and will stop it's spread .
Ahmadis are acting as a very emotional innocent victim here in thread , that's what making you fall for them .
No sorry , I'm blunt .

Plz , ask your faith .. will you like to see our naive people falling for a belief that prophet saww isn't the last prophet of Islam ?

You should keep such hate to yourself, If somebody chooses to listen to their message then it is their choice alone, and they will be punished on judgement day.

Let them believe as they wish, you should simply follow your own duties as a Muslim and promote peace and harmony with all regardless of religion.

If anybody chooses to believe what you think are "lies", then their iman was weak in the first place, and again they will be punished by Allah, and Allah alone.

 

[Hrk19]

So why did they ban Ahmedi Muslims preaching to other less informed Muslims about their religion?

because its a lie
it is a concoction of the 20th century and they still call themselves muslims
when they are apostates
we should inform muslims of this deviant group to save them from doom
again,non muslims are a different story
i will tolerate non muslims but never apostates

 

[Mansoon]

because its a lie
it is a concoction of the 20th century and they still call themselves muslims
when they are apostates
we should inform muslims of this deviant group to save them from doom
again,non muslims are a different story
i will tolerate non muslims but never apostates

Even if it is a lie, its not business of state to become part of the insurgency.

maybe in a religion other than Islam it isn't up to state to uphold the religion ......but in Islam it is a duty of state to implement the rules

But Pakistan is not run by Sharia laws. Most of Pakistani laws are derived from British secular system.

 

[Hrk19]

Can you honestly say you pray salat 5 times a day, lower the gaze when seeing a woman, and avoid music in your daly life?

No, then why do you not follow some rules of Islam and ignore others?



Who? You still haven't given me names?




You should keep such hate to yourself, If somebody chooses to listen to their message then it is their choice alone, and they will be punished on judgement day.

Let them believe as they wish, you should simply follow your own duties as a Muslim and promote peace and harmony with all regardless of religion.

If anybody chooses to believe what you think are "lies", then their iman was weak in the first place, and again they will be punished by Allah, and Allah alone.

dont have to
every single ulema literally say apostates are to be killed
try to find one that does not

also,the 5 times prayer,lowering gaze etc
trying is something muslims do,to make sure they dont miss anything
that is completely different from purposely not doing any of the things commanded by Allah
Allah cares about your intention most

 

[Mansoon]

every single ulema literally say apostates are to be killed

and who gave ulema killing authority in pakistan?

 

[Valar Dohaeris]

You may or may not see anything

But the Chief Justice of Pakistan did observe that:

"Keeping in view the several definitions given by the ulama, need we make any comment except that no two learned divines are agreed on this fundamental? If we attempt our own definition, as each learned divine has done, and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the ulama, we remain Muslims according to the view of that alim, but kafirs according to the definition of everyone else."



No, it does not call Hindus, Christian, Jews or Atheists as Muslims ... Because they themselves say that they are not Muslim... Do you get it now ?.

I dont really get it, the finding of chief justice declares that there is no definition of a Muslim, so whenever there are benefits of calling yourself as a Muslim, anyone can do it and law has to accept it.
The final comment of this report are nothing but an attempted excuse to derail from the original issue and engage the scholars in legal formalities.

 

[Well.wisher]

So? It doesnt make entire Pakistan Islamic. It only means majority of Pakistan is Muslim and hence Islam is state religion.

I'm talking about those muslims then ..

Okay okay ..
Let's be clear and blunt ..

I don't support their killing , I dont support them being tortured . They should live as a normal citizen of pakistan enjoying all rights ..

But don't plz spread your religion here , don't teach us your twisted set of belief . I do dislike their literature but don't ahmadis on a common level . However , I've known them complaining and backstabbing in west how they've been treated in pakistan, and I dislike that .
If they feel unsafe they should go to another country for their safety or do what you will their but plz we're not going to accept ahmadia as our religion . We can't risk our religion for you .

 

[M. Sarmad]

\

A state is modern Western, legal concept born from European experiance after the Treaty of Westphalia. That is why some Islamic jurists opposed the creation of Pakistan because they posited that a nation state is contradictory to Islam.

..

The whole idea of "Muslim Nationalism in South Asia" was developed by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and the Aligarians, this idea was inspired by the political theories of John Locke, Milton and Thomas Paine .... The creation of Pakistan was indeed the culmination of a process that derived all of its sustenance from this idea/theory ..


Bitterly opposed to this idea were people like Jamaluddin Afghani and Maududi .. Afghani severely criticized Sir Syed for the rejection of the idea of Pan-Islamism by the latter, and Mullah Maududi described the idea of Muslim Nationalism as unlikely as a ”chaste prostitute” ... (Abul Ala Maudoodi, Mussalman Aur Maujooda Syasi Kashmakash, quoted in K. K.Aziz, The Making of Pakistan, p. 148.)




Afghani was in India from 1879 to 1883, detained in Hyderabad for his political activities against the British. He was approached by the so called Ulama to give a fatwa declaring Sir Syed a heretic. Afghani’s fatwa condemned Sir Syed as a collaborator, who threw off his religion, converted to Christianity, and claimed that all the prophets were Necharis and did not believe in God (The Fatwa was published first in Persian in 1881 in Hyderabad, then in Urdu in 1884 in Calcutta, and in Arabic in 1885 from Beirut).


We chose Afghani and Maududi over Sir Syed and Jinnah .. In Pakistan, Jinnah and Sir Syed are held in high regard, but their ideological opponents (i.e, Afghani and Maududi) are followed by the vast majority of Pakistanis ... This "contradiction" has resulted from the state-sponsored religious-chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion .