Ah memories! :D

[VCheng]

True that. But I wanted your perspective on this. What do you think the US end game for Afghanistan is? What does it want to achieve in Afghanistan post 2014?

I would like to defer answering that question for now. Let me clarify my positions at PDF first to the leadership and important members.

 

[VelocuR]

This thread is becoming political discussions from original topics, lol.

It is MEMBER CLUB,MEEEEEEMM-BEEERRR CLUBB, not US vs Pakistan! (choking).

 

[VCheng]

The two 'national interests' are not pursued in the same manner - the US is willing to use overt and covert military intervention against Pakistan to support its national interests, Pakistan is not. The US is pursuing its national interests next door to Pakistan, Pakistan is not doing so in Mexico or Canada.

The impact of decisions made in the region will be felt most by Pakistan and the people of Pakistan, not the US, and therefore Pakistani interests take precedence.


Clashes in interests are fine, the resort to military intervention in Pakistan and/or attempts to destabilize Pakistan by the US to achieve its interests are not.

Regionally, Pakistani interests take precedence, since we will deal with the repercussions more than anyone - as a Pakistani that has to be accepted.

If this was Mexico or Canada we were talking about, I would side with US interests over Pakistan's.

Agreed 100%.

 

[lem34]

I will not get into what the TT Chair and Vice-Chair have done or not done - my point is simply that we entrusted the TT members, all of them, to come up with rules/guidelines and processes, and they did.

Now the rules/guidelines/processes they themselves came up with establish how the TT Chair and Vice Chair were created, and how people get elected to them and for how long. No one forced that on the TT members, and no one is stopping the TT from arriving at a majority consensus and amending the rules/guidelines/processes and changing the leadership.

The fact of the matter is that there was simple no support for the changes MK was/is talking about, or if there was, MK was unable to unify that support and make it 'count' so to speak. So why blame one individual for that?

This is akin to supporting a process, and then dissing the very same process when it does not deliver the results you want or expected. Even that is fine (not liking the process after supporting it) but now work within the rules to change the process or change the outcomes of the process.

Does the forum have a constitution or articles of association etc, Maybe i have missed its located on web?

 

[fd24]

I would like to defer answering that question for now. Let me clarify my positions at PDF first to the leadership and important members.

VCheng why (with respect) do you feel adamant that you have a duty to clarify your position to ANYONE? I think your position is known and respected by everyone that needs to know. By banging the drums harder and longer wont change the opinions of those that matter. I think you understand who im talking about.

 

[lem34]

VCheng why (with respect) do you feel adamant that you have a duty to clarify your position to ANYONE? I think your position is known and respected by everyone that needs to know. By banging the drums harder and longer wont change the opinions of those that matter. I think you understand who im talking about.

you mean violins, Can one beat violins?

 

[VCheng]

This thread is becoming political discussions from original topics, lol.

It is MEMBER CLUB,MEEEEEEMM-BEEERRR CLUBB, not US vs Pakistan! (choking).

Yes, this thread is in the correct forum "made to get yourself familiar with other members, and create friends".

We are building bridges of communication here!

 

[Awesome]

You can feel whatever you want. Subservient are those who are still taking what the elite are dishing out, not me. Anti-freedom are those who are resigned to their fate, not me.

And look, even you realize that unless something changes, Pakistan will remain subservient. We only disagree on what to do, that is all.

There is a further difference between what I say and you say. I want freedom, in its totality. The basic tenet of freedom is as long as my freedom does not impact your freedom, I'm free to do as I please.

Hence my positions have always been in support for cause of equality of Pakistanis - wrt to other religions like Ahmedis, Christians, Hindus and minor sects. These you almost always agree with. But when it comes to being free from subservience of America you're like OMG, blasphemy!!

What you're arguing for is just simply replacing either the elite or the Mullah for the Amreekan mai-baap.

For example, what did IK's dharnas achieve, the ones that you were so vociferous about?

IK's Dharnas are not the tor phor program you get from Mullah hooligans. Tameez-daar revolutions take their time. Has Occupy Wall Street ended Capitalism? People with guts are standing all over against tyranny, aap ho ke keh rahay ho, Nahi nahi nahi beta, gabbar ajayega, darro gabbar se.

I have never made that argument. If law and order continue to deteriorate at the rate they are, then there will be no need to bomb Pakistan. We will do the job of our destruction by own own hands.

Will you oppose any military action on Pakistani soil by any foreign force like the United States, come what may?

Yes. Then why has not all this been done? Forget FATA, the judge in the Qadri case was forced to leave the country.

Ek kaam karo, court pe drone hamla karwa doh.

You're so American about it. Why didn't this happen, bomb them. Why didn't you do this, bomb them. Let us fight our issues. It's like saying American universities trade in drugs, lets send drones there eventually the drug dealer would die in the process.

Why would I expect them to give up the fight? The FATA crowd will fight, and it is up to us to fight back. The better side will win. Simple. If the FATA crowd rule Lahore and Islamabad and Karachi, it won't be palatable to most of us, I assure you.

Excuse me fight back? They are not coming 14000 km to the US to fight with them and fight till when? Because you kill one guy his 10 kids are growing up with pent up anger ready to die in the cause. Your only solution is massive genocide of FATA, if you think you can fight your way out of this. Again so American.

Not at all. FATA is a lawless region because billions of dollars of drugs, arms and goods are smuggled through annually it to the benefit of a few. As long as they keep doing that instead of exporting their extremist ideology, why kill them?

Another American trait, just replace one vice for another and look away till it boils up into something else and what America is doing is not that actually, its going a step further. Its entangling FATA in a war with the rest of the Pakistan so your statement is correct but the execution is more like "As long as they keep killing Pakistanis and not us Americans why bother with a genocide"?

Oh, so now the great AA is out of counter arguments to resort to name calling? Violence is only the last resort, and its use, just like name calling, speaks of desperation, that is all.

Isn't this entire thread all about your character traits (and any others) and as we see them? You stating Pakistan has betrayed you by not living up to your standards? Your standards are a betrayal of Pakistan. This isn't name-calling. I have sufficient self-restraint to not go there.

More name calling speaks only of your desperation. I have not worshiped USA, and I have clearly said that it became #1 by decades of hard work. Saying that Pakistan needs to emulate that is no puja, mere good sense that I cannot discard as blithely as you due to blind zeal.

The first thing the US did was it stood up to the British and kicked em out. When it asserted that sort of independence and freedom working hard was within the realm of possibilities.

Today your US has imposed its henchman as our president and I think the military chief is their guy too. For hard towards what? They are all working hard towards American goals already.

... as opposed to the hundreds and disappeared killed by their own government?



... you mean the bonded warehouse where paperwork was held up for lack of a bribe?



... as opposed to the "good" Taliban?



... to go after terrorists that Pakistan itself would not attack?



... like Kashmir and "Khalistan"?



I thought you wanted sanctions so that Pakistan becomes independent?



All my positions have been correctly consistent and eminently logical. I have always been true to my origins. It is people like you who as blinded, and intent on remaining blinded, and leading a parade of fools into oblivion.

Consistently anti-Pakistan. Oh and "as opposed to" type arguments? You've just outlined that I'd resort to treachery when this happens. You think its okay that there is a point where treachery becomes justified - or worse these clearly treasonous acts are being sold to us as patriotic acts. Therein lies your disconnect with the rest of Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Does the forum have a constitution or articles of association etc, Maybe i have missed its located on web?

The rules/guidelines I am referring to were developed by, and apply to, the TT alone.

 

[lem34]

Asim I bow to you. You know your stuff lol

 

[fd24]

I see with great incredible sadness that our friend dirty rod is now watching on the sidlines wearing a pink sari that goes great with his beard. Have great evening sir and thank you indeed for quality. Most welcome quality.goodnight

 

[lem34]

I see with great incredible sadness that our friend dirty rod is now watching on the sidlines wearing a pink sari that goes great with his beard. Have great evening sir and thank you indeed for quality. Most welcome quality.goodnight

I think he has potential to be chairman of think tank he looks good in pink.

 

[Alpha Omega]

Pakistan has betrayed me by becoming what is was never supposed to be - a sinking third world banana republic. People have come and gone, but they all stood for Pakistan and made it what it is today.

Remember, I grew up after the heady progress of the sixties, and saw first hand the disaster of Bhutto, Zia and the rest. During those time I was working in areas that I won't mention but it was work of the highest importance.

I have good reasons to say what I did.

After voluntary exertions on the part of our people to which the history of the world furnishes no parallel, is the old root of bitterness still to remain in the ground, to sprout and bear fruit in the future as it has borne fruit in the past?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Mastankhan, you should form new party and run for PM seat.

all PDF support you

 

[Developereo]

You can talk up your patriotism till you're blue but I won't ever buy the argument "My patriotism forces me to have Pakistan bombed by foreign forces".

This is the part that I will never forgive.

There is a thread running about 'favorite posters' -- one of those perennial BFF threads -- and I don't post in those threads because it's hard for me to come up with a top 5. But I will tell you what I don't like. I don't like Pakistani posters who don't stand up for Pakistan when the anti-Pakistan troll brigade rolls into town. Instead, they pass snide, patronizing remarks about how Pakistanis are deluding themselves or some such. It garners many thanks and friendships from the troll brigade, but it does nothing to address the issue. Moreover, it insults the intelligence of the Pakistanis on this board, as if the rest of us just fell off the turnip truck yesterday.

If you look at Indians or Israelis, they may have their differences, but they close ranks when India or Israel gets attacked here.

There is no justification for killing civilians in Pakistan through drones. Even the alleged criminals need to be brought to trial. All these people wafting glorious about 'how the US works' know full well that, if a single drone attack ever occured on US soil, the entire drone fleet would be grounded by American courts. American law provides for presumption of innocence and due process for its citizens. Pakistanis deserve no less.

Even the ones in FATA.