AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan.

[cabatli_53]

Indeed. But AH-1W still remain the primary combat chopper for Turkey right? Are there any plans on a version of T-129 with a larger takeoff weight?

Turkey has 10 AH-1W and 25+ AH-1F/P Cobra's + 1 test-bed AH-1P Cobra in inventory at present. The inventory is being enlarged with T129 Atak configurations to be manufactured the number of 91.

-T129A is developed for primerily COIN missions. In following year, 9 A variant is going to be upgraded to B1 configuration.
-T129B1 poses a take off weight of 5000kg and It is the real multi-purpose anti-tank/surveillance configuration aimed for Atak program at the beggining.

- (If Turkish Army approves, Latest 21 Atak will be manufactured as B2 configuration) TAI works on the take-off weight of B2 to be increased between %5-%10 (max. 500kg), While new generation avionic systems/hardwares will be installed to gain aprox. %50 lighter weight of current A version's avionics. Such efforts will make B2 to be able to carry different payload and increased range. The Nose section will be re-designed/quite longer than current standart A and B1 versions and Maybe It is going to be a munition box like Apache for 20mm canon on B2.

In accordance with statements TAI manager Muharrem Dortkasli spoke, The members tried to draw an avarage design of B2 configuration.

-----------------------------------------------------


Remember an old news from defencenews which summarize current developments...



Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal

ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA — Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.

However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.

Turkish officials confirmed talks have “matured to a certain extent,” and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

“We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,” said one senior procurement official in Ankara. “We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.”

However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares.

“Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.”

Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.

Despite Turkey’s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.

“I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.”

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[SecularNationalist]

India has offered a follow-on order of 39 AH-64D Apache helicopters in addition to the 22 now being negotiated, a Defence Ministry official said. The sides have been wrangling over the price of the gunships, however, with the initial deal having been estimated to be worth $1.4 billion.
indian March 31 deadline
India offers to buy more U.S. helicopters, hopes to drive down costs

what was included in the apache/hellfire deal ? Want to find out unit costs of viper vs apache
@sancho

AH-64D is the most expensive version of apache and the total price for 39 AH-64D,s should be $2.5 billion(One has a price of $65 million) .Indians got a fair price for 22 pieces($1.4 billion =65*22)
One new viper cost,s $31 million.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Nope it's 20

Wait and watch

 

[Djinn]

For Pakistan best option is to go for WZ-10 and if the Americans are feeling so generous and truly want to assist Pakistan in its WOT, then perhaps they wont mind providing Pakistan with engines for WZ-10's(in case the current one's are found to be not as potent as the western one's).

 

[SipahSalar]

Despite Turkey’s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.

Alas, his fears are validated. I think supplying arms to a country is one of the major ways to influence a nation. And Pakistan being a militaristic weapons hungry state, it was too good an opportunity for US to pass on.

 

[SQ8]

@Manticore @Donatello @Imran Khan

The Hellfire Missiles approved are NOT Anti Tank missiles

They are AGM 114 R Hellfire 2[/QUOTE]

Please dont display your idiotic pithy mentality everywhere in trying to bring down everything Pakistani, Banned from thread for being a wikipedia parrot.

A significantly improved version of the AGM-114 missile is being developed for the Army as the AGM-114R. This variant has a new Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) warhead, which combines the features of a shaped-charge and a blast-fragmentation warhead. Compared to the AGM-114P, the AGM-114R has increased engagement envelope and lethality, and a variable-delay fuze timed by laser codes. It can be employed by all Hellfire-compatible helicopter and UAV platforms.

Basically it can target both hardened bunkers and Armour targets.

ALL MEMBERS ARE ADVISED TO REPORT ANY POINTLESS ARGUMENTS TO DERAIL AND TROLL THE THREAD BY THOSE ACROSS THE BORDER ASAP.

This is what armchair generals don't understand, Attack Choppers rarely go up against enemy Attack Choppers, almost never. If anything, their effectiveness should be measured by how good they are at maneuvering and taking out tanks from distance.

You still have to provide Arm Chair generals their satisfaction.
However, whilst it is RARE.. it is not unlikely that Attack choppers end up having to engage other helicopters.

He is an ignorant troll. Hellfire II R is an all aspect missile for ground targets.......what might differ is the guidance......what matters to us is the warhead. Just like the French MICA comes in IR and Active radar homing versions..

If the Koreans got the MMR radar, their missile might be different.

@Oscar can you provide some input?

The MMR radar variant is linked with the Longbow radar system. Whilst the Zulu can carry the Longbow system the one Pakistan is getting is without it.

To further finish the argument and leave a reference in case another Cha from across the border comes along with another copy paste.

The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout.

 

[Donatello]

Gentlemen, please keep the WZ-10 and ATAK discussions out....this thread is for the merits of the AH-1Z sale.

Many are claiming that USA offered this and Pakistan can refuse.....however, it was Pakistan that requested this equipment way back, and if Pakistan passes on now, then that would be a stupid decision.

We can consider the merits of WZ-10, T-129 and AH-1Z on a separate thread.

 

[waz]

It's a good deal and a great machine. The Z-10 evaluation and hopeful subsequent deal is independent from this.
I'm unhappy that this could mean the end for the ATAK deal, which would have been a great prospect for the army.

 

[Donatello]

It's a good deal and a great machine. The Z-10 evaluation and hopeful subsequent deal is independent from this.
I'm unhappy that this could mean the end for the ATAK deal, which would have been a great prospect for the army.

Again, ATAK would be very good, if US equipment was off limits......but since now the US has approved, that question is gone.
So for the back bone, it would be WZ10 or ATAK.....whichever offers better performance/reliability/tailored systems.

Plus it is AH-1z a tested western system vs ATAK....we need to put helos in action today.......they are desperately needed.

 

[Armstrong]

And what is the reason for that? Do you have a clue on it?

Why did we or appear to be going for this deal ?

Why not the Turkish option ?

 

[salarsikander]

Well this is what I found From Wiki
Unit cost
US$27 million[1] CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft - 12/20/2010 - Flight Global
US$31 million (new built)[2] http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf
Though the second link is not opening.

The tender AH-1Z selected had been opened at the beggining of 2000's. I mean It is not a new development. Today, We have developed an AH-1Z like attack helicopter that We rules each parts from mission computers to avionics, missiles and sensors. Atak helicopters are being manufactured with a speed of 12 per year at present.

Hi,

Perhaps later on we can look forward to Turkey for servicng these machines, just like MLU programs

 

[Path-Finder]

I am not saying, the United States ARMY is confirming that. And the manufacturer of the missile is stating it.

Well the debate from last few pages with indians telling us it is not anti armor to the land of confusion where no one can crack the enigma of Hellfire varient, only on

 

[C130]

And you might be aware of the cost per hellfire?
Just to blow up one mud house or kill a few talibunnies,too costly.
We need something like Russian MI-35 to shove a few hundred cheap bullets up Talibunnies rear ends.

you can use 20 mm and hydra 70 for the same thing.

but how I look at it to kill a few terrorists with a $100,000 hellfire is cheaper then having to take care of a soldier who's been injured by a IED from that same terrorist. which would cost who knows a few hundred thousand to a million over a lifetime.


but I see your point

.

this is exactly what Iraq is doing.


i personally would like a small heli and a minigun to mop up terrorists cheap and cool

 

[SQ8]

Well the debate from last few pages with indians telling us it is not anti armor to the land of confusion where no one can crack the enigma of Hellfire varient, only on

Please, their entire purpose of existence in life seems to be spreading misinformation. Best to NEVER believe any Indian outside of those wonderful people part of our Think Tank and Professional setup(and perhaps.. 5 others who are not) who are generally armed with proper knowledge and know what they are talking about.

 

[syedali73]

Get them but do not drop the Chinese/Turkish options. In an eventuality, US will drop Pakistan like a hot potato and we'll be embargoed in no time.