Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history

[extra terrestrial]

In 1947, it was hard to tell what would transpire in the future, but the geographical distance and ethnic difference was a big enough factor that people like Mountbatten predicted that Pakistan will break in about 25 years, which was exactly what happened.

Absolutely. Since you have put forth the predictions by the British about the future of the subcontinent, let me add that they also predicted Calcutta will soon start to decline right after the partition and that's exactly what happened. The only prediction that proved to be wrong was the future economic status of East Bengal. They said East Bengal won't survive without the western part of Bengal, in contrast we not only survived but have already surpassed West Bengal by miles and on the way to surpass Pakistan.

1. Having 3 independent countries would definitely have been a better choice
2. The other option would have been to start with much more federalized looser union with an escape clause for separation by referendum in any one wing

Option 2 had the added advantage of having a common foreign policy and defense, but separate bureaucratic and financial management.

Instead of option 1 or 2, what we had was an effort at integrating two separate landmass, their population and a transplanted migrant population from India, who moved to both wings. It was an ambitious project, it was mismanaged and it failed. While a more modest goal of 2 might have worked, a more ambitious goal has failed.

About the second option, you first need to have strong democratic environment to ensure its implementation and given the events that took place between 47 and 71 and the post-71 political history of both Bangladesh and Pakistan, we can safely conclude that option 2 was never going to be successful.

As for Jinnah's personal motivation for doing what he did, I do not know enough to comment. He was a Gujarati Muslim of Shia sect who married a Parsi lady. He was one of the representatives of the then educated Hindustani Muslim elite, many of whom migrated to both wings. Naturally he would try to further the interest of his group, sometimes at the expense of other ethnic groups. So I think it is only natural and any Bengali in his position would have done worse. So we should not blame him for not creating 3 separate countries. If Bengali leaders were really serious about this goal and believed in it, they should have pursued it on their own, regardless of whether West Bengal wanted to be with East Bengal or not. We cannot blame Jinnah for this, because he was not a Bengali leader and getting an independent East Bengal was not his responsibility. He did what he had to do, but it was our Bengali leaders who lacked foresight and vision and failed our people. At least they could have negotiated with Jinnah for a No. 2 option constitution from the start, instead of what we started out with. If we had a constitution like that, then we could probably avoid the situation in 1971 and the union could still survive. And if there was difficulty still, we could separate without any bloodshed, just by holding a referendum on one side.

First of all, Jinnah was regarded as the supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, he was the president of the central Muslim league. Now to be a justified candidate for this position, shouldn't he be working for the welfare of all the Muslims without being partial towards a particular ethic group? Some people here saying that Jinnah supported the independent Bengal plan, sure he supported it but it was only a tacit support, not an explicit one. Moreover, Nazimuddin, Akram Khan, Nurul Amin were ordered by Jinnah not to negotiate with the Hindu leaders. You said a Bengali leader in Jinnah's position would have done worse - I'm not sure about that. As I said earlier, Suhrawardy, Abul Hashim realized Jinnah's prejudice against Bengalis quite long before the partition and that independent Bengal plan was also in existence. But they kept it concealed just for the sake of the unity among the Muslims of the sub continent and disclosed the plan only when British parliament past the Indian independence bill. The Cabinet Mission gave them only 2 months to campaign for the independent Bengal plan, while Jinnah had some 7 years for his Pakistan movement. About the negotiation on constitution, as I said you would need to ensure strong democratic environment to implement the constitution. Even if they had successfully negotiated for the constitution it wouldn't be implemented for sure.

The failure which culminated in the war in 1971, created a rift between 3 main groups of Muslim populations in South Asia, Bengal Muslims, Hindustani Muslims and Pakistan Muslims, which could have been avoided.

Now the ghost of 1971 still affects future common endeavors by any of these 3 groups. What we should learn from this is that any geopolitical decision by a country or people of a landmass has to be much more carefully thought out, to avoid this kind of catastrophic failures.

Exactly. The formation of Pakistan with that geographical distance was not only an ambitious but a fallible one. You would only see this type of geographical distance among the imperial colonies. The political consciousness of Bengalis should also be taken into consideration. Bengalis are arguably the most politically conscious among all the ethnic groups in the subcontinent. Remember, the earliest anti-British movements started from Bengal, including the Great Sepoy Mutiny in 1857. Because of this political consciousness, it's hard to keep them under a political deprivation for long. And that's why the matter of Bangladesh and Bengalis cannot be compared with that of other unfortunate ethnic groups who are still living under a political withholding.

 

[extra terrestrial]

double post

 

[extra terrestrial]

triple post

 

[extra terrestrial]

quadruple

 

[BanglaBhoot]

Believe me I would want nothing more than to turn back time & have an Independent Bengal that has nothing to do with Pakistan whatsoever ! Now whether that independent Bengal gets absorbed by India, Burma or is invaded by the Martians is inconsequential to me !

If Pakistanis knew their history they would know that Pakistan would not have existed without the Bengal Muslims who gave impetus to the idea before Jinnah took up the issue. It was the Bengal Muslims who suffered from centuries of oppression from the Hindu landlords and were denied their rights. If anyone betrayed the concept of Pakistan it was the leaders in the Western half. Pakistan has had a dysfunctional political system for most of its history and its economy cannot exist without US or Chinese handouts. Nothing to be proud of there. What would Jinnah have made of Pakistan today? He would have been appalled that Pakistan requires an all powerful military just to keep the country together and that many parts of the country are no go areas controlled by Islamist or separatist groups. This is not what he envisaged in his famous post Independence speech. Yes I am sure there is a lot you can be proud of in Pakistan so keep what you have and remain the problem case of the world. It was your type of arrogant mindset that led to the break up in 1971 which the Indians easily exploited. You have been playing catch up ever since. Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with Indians attempts to sabotage it. Bangladesh practices the two nation theory that Jinnah had hoped for. Yes we have often been side tracked by Indian lackeys but we always return to the ideal form eventually.

 

[Tameem]

Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory

 

[Tameem]

First of all, Jinnah was regarded as the supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, he was the president of the central Muslim league. Now to be a justified candidate for this position, shouldn't he be working for the welfare of all the Muslims without being partial towards a particular ethic group?

You take West Pakistan as sole ethnic group

In the dying age of 70-72, Jinnah strive hard to get as many Muslim states (he even tried for south India as well) out of the Indian union as much he could, if he insists on something more idealist it might prolong the actual partition plan and God know what happened next. Your post miss the context entirely when you blame Jinnah of not putting more support toward united bengal, he don't oppose it what else he could.

That exactly shows he is the sole leader of the Muslims of Indian subcontinent and not just bengali muslims.

 

[khair_ctg]

Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with

Sorry Munshi bhai, i've seen your posts usually hit the nail on it's head but this...?

i really really wish the reality was closer to that though

 

[BanglaBhoot]

Sorry Munshi bhai, i've seen your posts usually hit the nail on it's head but this...?

i really really wish the reality was closer to that though

And what is wrong with our version of the Two Nation Theory. Yes the Awami League distorts it when it comes to power through devious means but then we go back to the original idea. It is the Two Nation Theory as declared by Jinnah immediately after Independence and which Pakistan gradually moved away from soon after. If the Two Nation Theory did not exist in Bangladesh then there would be no reason for the country to remain on the map. That has not happened in 40 years even though the Indians are trying very hard to turn Bangladesh into a vassal state or protectorate. You are assuming there is only one version of the Two Nation Theory.

 

[LaBong]

Absolutely. Since you have put forth the predictions by the British about the future of the subcontinent, let me add that they also predicted Calcutta will soon start to decline right after the partition and that's exactly what happened. The only prediction that proved to be wrong was the future economic status of East Bengal. They said East Bengal won't survive without the western part of Bengal, in contrast we not only survived but have already surpassed West Bengal by miles and on the way to surpass Pakistan.



About the second option, you first need to have strong democratic environment to ensure its implementation and given the events that took place between 47 and 71 and the post-71 political history of both Bangladesh and Pakistan, we can safely conclude that option 2 was never going to be successful.



First of all, Jinnah was regarded as the supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, he was the president of the central Muslim league. Now to be a justified candidate for this position, shouldn't he be working for the welfare of all the Muslims without being partial towards a particular ethic group? Some people here saying that Jinnah supported the independent Bengal plan, sure he supported it but it was only a tacit support, not an explicit one. Moreover, Nazimuddin, Akram Khan, Nurul Amin were ordered by Jinnah not to negotiate with the Hindu leaders. You said a Bengali leader in Jinnah's position would have done worse - I'm not sure about that. As I said earlier, Suhrawardy, Abul Hashim realized Jinnah's prejudice against Bengalis quite long before the partition and that independent Bengal plan was also in existence. But they kept it concealed just for the sake of the unity among the Muslims of the sub continent and disclosed the plan only when British parliament past the Indian independence bill. The Cabinet Mission gave them only 2 months to campaign for the independent Bengal plan, while Jinnah had some 7 years for his Pakistan movement. About the negotiation on constitution, as I said you would need to ensure strong democratic environment to implement the constitution. Even if they had successfully negotiated for the constitution it wouldn't be implemented for sure.



Exactly. The formation of Pakistan with that geographical distance was not only an ambitious but a fallible one. You would only see this type of geographical distance among the imperial colonies. The political consciousness of Bengalis should also be taken into consideration. Bengalis are arguably the most politically conscious among all the ethnic groups in the subcontinent. Remember, the earliest anti-British movements started from Bengal, including the Great Sepoy Mutiny in 1857. Because of this political consciousness, it's hard to keep them under a political deprivation for long. And that's why the matter of Bangladesh and Bengalis cannot be compared with that of other unfortunate ethnic groups who are still living under a political withholding.

West Bengal is ahead of Bangladesh in all social indicators as well as economic prosperity. This is after West Bengal had to withstand severe refugee crisis, first most of the hindus migrated then scores of muslims started migrating.

While partition contributed to calcutta decline however the main reason is 30 years of communist regime and trade unionists who made most entrepreneurs to flee the state for greener pasture. Also some goi policies also affected the state along with Bihar, Jharkhand which couldn't take benefit of their proximity to coal and other mines because goi subsidised the transport cost and industries opened shop in port cities of wester and southern India.

 

[EasyNow]

Seriously, kalu_miah there are so many inconsistencies, ignorance and just plain prejudice in your "truth" that its impossible to take you seriously.

Your contradictory statements first portray the BD independence movement as an Indian conspiracy then go on to say that the east-west Pakistan setup was never going to work anyway. Make your mind up, if it was a doomed project anyway why the conspiracy theories? Why do you need to denigrate the resulting country and the people who pushed it through?

Yes India acted in its own interest, that is their prerogative. We acted in our interest, we wanted independence and we took the help of whoever offered it - so what? Does that make Mujib an Indian Agent? Does that make all razakars into Pakistani/US agents because they opposed it? Maulana Bashani was a devoted Muslim but he supported independence - was he an Indian agent too?

One more thing, in 1971, the USA, the "great Satan" and enemy of Islam was supporting West Pak and was anti-independence. So who was "conspiring" with whom? Do your research and don't blank out everything that doesn't fit with your "truth".

"Is it not possible that instead of seeking help from an enemy that hates us Muslims to the core, that we could confront and raise this issue with our "oppressor" the West Pakistani's who were fellow Muslims after all?"

This really made me laugh! Are you serious? Were you born yesterday or, do you think you are the only Bengali with a brain? Do you think Bengalis were sitting quietly when West Pak was openly exploiting them? LOL. There was no need for language riots, there was no need for worldwide lobbying, there was no need for AL and Muslim League campaigning, there was no need to mobilise an electorate - all they had to do was ask!

If you cannot accept that BDeshi's were mistreated, exploited and suffered racism from West Pak - just take a look at this thread and consider some Pak feelings towards Bdeshi's even today. You are either blind or you have no self-respect.

"Again I see that demagogues and rabble rousers become leaders with little idea of geopolitics and lead nations and people to a direction with disastrous consequences for the people they lead"

You complain about the "disastrous consequences" for Bangladesh, but ignore the fact that we are doing far better now than ever before. For a 4 decade old state we have achieved miracles. BD's relative peace and prosperity may hurt you but please don't bend the truth to fit your story.

You started off saying that you are not taking sides but you exposed anti-BD, anti-independence leanings in your writing.... First, you guess that Mujib was a goonda of Sohrawardhy:

"young Mujib was one of his goondas (I don't know for sure)"


But it doesn't take long for your initial guess to be transformed into 100% anti-mujib surety.
"True to his Gunda (goon) origin under Suhrawardy,"

The same goonda origin you just guessed earlier!!

Most importantly, you need to rethink your constant use of references to Muslim unity and Muslim loyalties in regards to BD's secession. All over the world Muslims are having to tackle other Muslim's who are trying to impose authority, injustice or terror on them. What does it matter if your oppressor is a fellow Muslim? Should we just ignore it?

For any Pakistanis reading this, please do not encourage these people. This thinking reflects the warped, paranoid, conspiracy theorism of JI members everywhere. In Pak, they claim a stake in a state that they initially rallied against but all the while they undermine the state by slyly supporting TTP to fight its constitution. In BD, they sided with Pak Army in 1971 opposing independence and now they rewrite history like it was an Indian conspiracy whilst still wanting to have a stake in the country that was born from it. They are hypocrites of the highest order.

East and West Pakistan, was a doomed marriage that ended messily. Both parties need to move on and get on with their lives - but we can never do this when members of our own countries act like they've been cheated out of a utopia. They are a disease that eats away at a nation's foundations slowly - they should be taken to task wherever they are found and they should have to accept reality like everyone else.

Finally Kalu_miah, I agree 100% that a country needs to face up to its problems. If you wrote about corruption, congestion, poverty, extremism, student politics or any other reality of BD I would support you fully. But all you are doing is revisiting the very birth of our nation and undermining it. The truth that you need to face is that independence was inevitable and it happened, be proud of it and help to build on it because if you can't stand for your country then you stand for nothing.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Sorry Munshi bhai, i've seen your posts usually hit the nail on it's head but this...?

i really really wish the reality was closer to that though

The two-nation theory evolved into a tri-nation theory

 

[Armstrong]

If Pakistanis knew their history they would know that Pakistan would not have existed without the Bengal Muslims who gave impetus to the idea before Jinnah took up the issue. It was the Bengal Muslims who suffered from centuries of oppression from the Hindu landlords and were denied their rights. If anyone betrayed the concept of Pakistan it was the leaders in the Western half. Pakistan has had a dysfunctional political system for most of its history and its economy cannot exist without US or Chinese handouts. Nothing to be proud of there. What would Jinnah have made of Pakistan today? He would have been appalled that Pakistan requires an all powerful military just to keep the country together and that many parts of the country are no go areas controlled by Islamist or separatist groups. This is not what he envisaged in his famous post Independence speech. Yes I am sure there is a lot you can be proud of in Pakistan so keep what you have and remain the problem case of the world. It was your type of arrogant mindset that led to the break up in 1971 which the Indians easily exploited. You have been playing catch up ever since. Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with Indians attempts to sabotage it. Bangladesh practices the two nation theory that Jinnah had hoped for. Yes we have often been side tracked by Indian lackeys but we always return to the ideal form eventually.

Oh please one cannot talk about the untold sacrifices of the Bengali Muslims in making Pakistan & their ardent desire to see a United Bengal in the same sentence & still have the audacity of having any moral right to speak about Pakistan !

At any rate the Bengali Muslims like the rest of us were a sorry excuse for a people who couldn't put aside their internal bickering or could be used & abused by all & sundry alike till Muhammad Ali Jinnah came - If anyone has any right to talk about Pakistan & claim it as their own than it is that man & that man alone ! After all when he talked about 'khoteiii sikkkeiii - worthless coins' residing in his pocket, he wasn't just talking about the Muslim Leaguers on our side but also those on your side !

Besides it was Iqbal's Allahbad Address that kick started the movement not anything else otherwise the Muslim League before Jinnah was little more than a bunch of self-righteous & self-serving feudals !

If anyone is responsible for the dismemberment of Pakistan its the leaders & the people of both East Pakistan & West Pakistan who couldn't transcend their linguistic, ethnic or provincial bickering to galvanize themselves into One Nation inspite of the many challenges that were facing the country back then.

Pakistan is doing just fine even without the American & Chinese hand-outs - You should ask your more than 2 million illegal compatriots in Pakistan more about it !

Jinnah, like any level headed person, would've realized that when a country next to you is in a State of War for the past 3 decades for a myriad reasons many of whom are of its own creation than naturally a fall-out of that is to expected on us !

At any rate you would forgive me if I laugh when a country where every mention of Quaid-e-Azam is omitted & where the start & end of History revolves around perpetual victimhood at the hands of the Big Bad West Pakistanis & even the Quaid himself is not spared the intrigues, mentions the Two Nation Theory & what Jinnah hoped to see in a State !

If anything it is not my arrogance but my humble & honest opinion that we are better off without you & you are better off without us - To you be your way to me mine ! '71 should've happened in '47 & no amount of protestations by the Bengalis should've been accommodated into integrating them with the rest of Pakistan !

 

[extra terrestrial]

If Pakistanis knew their history they would know that Pakistan would not have existed without the Bengal Muslims who gave impetus to the idea before Jinnah took up the issue. It was the Bengal Muslims who suffered from centuries of oppression from the Hindu landlords and were denied their rights. If anyone betrayed the concept of Pakistan it was the leaders in the Western half. Pakistan has had a dysfunctional political system for most of its history and its economy cannot exist without US or Chinese handouts. Nothing to be proud of there. What would Jinnah have made of Pakistan today? He would have been appalled that Pakistan requires an all powerful military just to keep the country together and that many parts of the country are no go areas controlled by Islamist or separatist groups. This is not what he envisaged in his famous post Independence speech. Yes I am sure there is a lot you can be proud of in Pakistan so keep what you have and remain the problem case of the world. It was your type of arrogant mindset that led to the break up in 1971 which the Indians easily exploited. You have been playing catch up ever since. Bangladesh is an example of the two nations theory that works even with Indians attempts to sabotage it. Bangladesh practices the two nation theory that Jinnah had hoped for. Yes we have often been side tracked by Indian lackeys but we always return to the ideal form eventually.

Couldn't agree more! It was Bengalis who created Pakistan, it was Bengalis who supported Pakistan but in return we only got betrayal! However, we have maintained our friendly gesture towards Pakistan by granting Bangladeshi citizenship to the 3 million Pakistani refugees and allowing hundreds of Pakistani students every year to study in our country.

You take West Pakistan as sole ethnic group

In the dying age of 70-72, Jinnah strive hard to get as many Muslim states (he even tried for south India as well) out of the Indian union as much he could, if he insists on something more idealist it might prolong the actual partition plan and God know what happened next. Your post miss the context entirely when you blame Jinnah of not putting more support toward united bengal, he don't oppose it what else he could.

That exactly shows he is the sole leader of the Muslims of Indian subcontinent and not just bengali muslims.

I've already agreed to that bold part in my earlier post, Jinnah always tried to have the strongest possible Pakistan against India but he didn't care a whit if his plans would hurt of some of his fellow Muslims or not. Nevertheless, in the post I tried to imply that even though Jinnah was considered a supreme leader of the Muslims of the subcontinent, his works couldn't justify his position at all.

West Bengal is ahead of Bangladesh in all social indicators as well as economic prosperity.

In 2012 West Bengal's per capita income was 34,229 Rs or 622 USD (1 USD = 55 Rs) with a growth rate of 7.06. At this growth rate, it won't be more than 700 USD in 2013 while the per capita income of Bangladesh is 1,047 USD, big difference!

http://pbplanning.gov.in/pdf/Statewise%20GSDP%20PCI%20and%20G.R.pdf

 

[BanglaBhoot]

Oh please one cannot talk about the untold sacrifices of the Bengali Muslims in making Pakistan & their ardent desire to see a United Bengal in the same sentence & still have the audacity of having any moral right to speak about Pakistan !

At any rate the Bengali Muslims like the rest of us were a sorry excuse for a people who couldn't put aside their internal bickering or could be used & abused by all & sundry alike till Muhammad Ali Jinnah came - If anyone has any right to talk about Pakistan & claim it as their own than it is that man & that man alone ! After all when he talked about 'khoteiii sikkkeiii - worthless coins' residing in his pocket, he wasn't just talking about the Muslim Leaguers on our side but also those on your side !

Besides it was Iqbal's Allahbad Address that kick started the movement not anything else otherwise the Muslim League before Jinnah was little more than a bunch of self-righteous & self-serving feudals !

If anyone is responsible for the dismemberment of Pakistan its the leaders & the people of both East Pakistan & West Pakistan who couldn't transcend their linguistic, ethnic or provincial bickering to galvanize themselves into One Nation inspite of the many challenges that were facing the country back then.

Pakistan is doing just fine even without the American & Chinese hand-outs - You should ask your more than 2 million illegal compatriots in Pakistan more about it !

Jinnah, like any level headed person, would've realized that when a country next to you is in a State of War for the past 3 decades for a myriad reasons many of whom are of its own creation than naturally a fall-out of that is to expected on us !

At any rate you would forgive me if I laugh when a country where every mention of Quaid-e-Azam is omitted & where the start & end of History revolves around perpetual victimhood at the hands of the Big Bad West Pakistanis & even the Quaid himself is not spared the intrigues, mentions the Two Nation Theory & what Jinnah hoped to see in a State !

If anything it is not my arrogance but my humble & honest opinion that we are better off without you & you are better off without us - To you be your way to me mine ! '71 should've happened in '47 & no amount of protestations by the Bengalis should've been accommodated into integrating them with the rest of Pakistan !

For some one who claims to have represented the Muslims of India Jinnah actually had very little knowledge of Muslims in the country and how they lived and what they thought or wanted. He may have galvanized the ML into adopting the Pakistan idea but it is the Bengal Muslims who ran with it. The Two Nation theory does not belong to one man or country and involves the contribution of several people and finds best cause from the suffering of the Bengal Muslims at the hands of their Hindu overlords. Something the West Pakistanis never had to face but used as an excuse for partition. I agree with you that present day Bangladesh has lost much of its history through the deliberate machinations of India and the AL but the thesis still remains the same or otherwise the country would have been rendered a vassal state or protectorate of India soon after 1971. As for how Pakistan is doing we get the latest news about the dozens of bombings, massacres and terrorist acts on an almost weekly basis. Pakistan should sort its own problems out before blaming Muslim Bengalis for the mess of its own creation which is actually its diversion away from the Two Nation Theory as envisaged by Jinnah.