Afghanistan Pakistan Confederation

[afpakproject]

Notes on an Afghanistan Pakistan Confederation

Pre-amble:
A. Posting this to engage in serious dialog -- no racial -- hate filled -- or bigoted responses please.
B. I'm an ethnic Pakistani Punjabi -- please point out any bias that you see.
C. What ever is stated here is probably extremely difficult -- I should be read and
understood with the mindset that we will eat "Ghass" (grass) but do it.

I wanted to connect with people who think Afghanistan and Pakistan could be merged into a single confederation.

I'm no scholar of history, political science or sociology -- but I feel that for people of Muslim faith/heritage in Western South Asia(Pakistan and Afghanistan) and Central Asia to live in a socio-economically secure, vibrant and secure homeland a confederation of the current "Stans" is needed. The first step in that direction can be the merger of
Afghanistan and Pakistan. Such a step would be extremely difficult because of
thorny baggage -- but what we're looking at is a 50-100 year plan. Those reading this
may not live to see it but we may live by playing our small parts.

For the confederation to happen it can be through a series of reversible stages:
1. So if things don't seem to be working out the parties can back away from it.
2. Each stage would last 5-10 years.
3. Early stages would give preferential treatment to Afghans and current day Afghanistan
as they are at numerically disadvantaged in a democracy.
4. Examples of preferential treatment would be:
a. The titular head for the first stages of this confederation would be drawn from Afghan
Areas.
b. Two capitals would be maintained with the selection of a future capital to be decided
at a future date.
c. Afgani citizens would get rights to free movement, settlement and trade in the earlier
stages
d. Residents of the smaller Pakistani provinces would be next to get privileges of free
movement, settlement and trade.
e. Residents of Pakistani Punjab would be last to get privileges of free
movement, settlement and trade in the earlier
5. There may be two state banks in the earlier stages of the merger.
6. The name of the new confederation would be decided towards the later stages.
7. Extraordinary provision would be present in the new constitution for the
protection of minorities (ethnic, religious and political).
8. There may be provisions or ethos enshrined in the new constitution which
state that the new confederation will not be a militarily aggressive entity and
will seek to exist cordially and peacefully with all nations.
9. There may be provisions or ethos enshrined in the new constitution which
state that the new confederation will expect to one day claim its role as a pre-eminent
social, economic, cultural and military power.
10. There may be provisions or ethos enshrined in the new constitution which
state that the new confederation will hope to one day merge with the other "Stans"
and possibly Iran and Turkey and possible form a special arrangement with
Bangladesh.
11. The new confederation would seek extraordinary relationships with China and EU,
Gulf and the USA
12. English would remain for the time being the official language with provisions for
regional languages such as Urdu, Pashto, Baluchi, Sindi, Fari, etc. -- with a long term
goal of moving to a language with closer central asian / Middle eastern roots
Persian and Arabic would be the leading choices -- Turkish another possibility.

At the end of it all:
1. Both Afghanistan and Pakistan would be contained in the federation.
2. Both afghanistan and Pakistan will cease to exist -- possible sometimes
after the confederation.
3. Free movement of people
4. Right to establish business and establish residency
5. Single currently -- possible Dirham or Dinar
6. Several official languages with a long term (50 year) move to
Arabic or Farsi or Turkish as the national/cultural language with English
as the official language.

First steps:
1. Connect with Afghan, Pakistani, Muslim and Western scholars, intellectuals, youth,
business leaders who are for or even against this idea.
2. Set up a think tank with modest funds that conducts out reach and evangelizes
the idea specially in the Afghan and Pakistani Diaspora.
3. The think tank will conduct competitions in Afghan and Pakistani universities
where the work products are papers and other artifacts that debate both sides
of the idea.
4. The think tank would curate and publish the papers on the web where they can
further seed discussion and thought.
5. From this step the philosophical underpinnings would emerge and
set the seeds for the next steps
6. There will be an emphasis to analyze both sides of the argument -- to merge or not
to merge as this will lead to sounder and genetically fit arguments and philosophy.

 

[Developereo]

I think your plan is quite kachcha, very RAW, if you know what I mean.

I think you do.

 

[jamal18]

English as the official language?

 

[TaimiKhan]

One of the most funniest thread & theory. As if Pakistan wants to make it happen, people of Pakistan will never want it.

Remember when East Germany & West Germany got united ?? One half was decades behind, one was the most modern one. It took Germany billions of dollars to upgrade the eastern block, and till this day eastern block has not come up to the standard of the west.

And some of the suggestions for the confederation are quiet absurd, it seems it will be just Afghanistan will be left, no Pakistan

 

[Developereo]

Hint: It's an Indian troll...

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Bad Case of Trolling

 

[afpakproject]

Responses:

1. To Trolling -- not to play quaint -- I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate.

2. On the billions of dollars yes
-- that is a legitimate concern I think
-- do we not see any benefits -- access to central asia
-- doubling of Pakistan's size

3. On English as an official language:
-- English is already the official language today
-- It's just a proposal -- what do you think would be more appropriate.

4. On credentials of this theory
-- strategic depth has been a Pakistani imperative
-- not sure how it can be a to the detriment of Pakistan.
-- Although I've not read it myself -- I think Gohar Ayub claims in his book
that this almost happened.

 

[Watani]

^ I appreciate your thinking and your desire for unity, many Pakistani's I know want Muslim countries to merge in order to clear hatred between Muslims. But it's a bitter truth that even in future Muslim countries will only divide even further and not merge at all. Afghanistan was merged with quiet some countries before and the best example I can give is Iran, but Iran all those time tried to convert Sunni's to Shia's which created a lot of chaos in Greater Khorasan. Especially Pashtuns were disliked by Iranians because we were Sunni's, plus we had excellent defending skills. Pashtuns had it with Iranian political views and therefore got separated. Pashtuns of Afghanistan do want to unite with Pashtuns in Pakhtunkhwa but whether rest of Afghanistan, especially Tajiks, want it as well? I am not so sure.

Merging these two countries will only cause more disaster for both countries and nor do majority civilians on both sides want it. What's important is that our politicians become friendly towards one another and that will be one huge step towards peace between the countries. If we succeed in making Afghanistan and Pakistan political friends then we already reached the sky.

 

[afpakproject]

It is really surprising to me that we (of Muslim faith and or heritage) seem to look only to the past -- Is there no room for we can do it better the next time -- we can fix it.

I think it might have been at one time that the idea of Pakistan was unfavorable to the Muslims of South Asia -- In just a matter of years a few committed leaders were able to convince a poor largely uneducated people to rally behind the cause.

I think we should look at what our neighbors did (India China) -- where they consolidated territories though force -- what is being proposed here is merging voluntarily of people who are far more similar than say North and South Indians or say Tibetans and Hun Chinese.

On convincing Tajiks, I think it could be done -- if it in the end run promises a better future for Tajiks and Uzbeks why would selling them the idea be hard. I think it requires suspending old prejudices and resignation to fate and giving it a clean look.

I honestly don't have much faith in the politicians -- I think we need to start a grass roots movement of the Pakistani and Afghan Diaspora -- possibly as a multinational non-profit that engages young Pakistani and Afghans abroad and seeds this.

 

[afpakproject]

And some of the suggestions for the confederation are quiet absurd

Could please enumerate the absurd point -- that really is the point to improve this framework.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

I am an Afghan (Pushtun) ----> that means a Pakistani Pukhtun, and here is what I have to say:

"There is no need to spend time on this thread, its core fundamentals are weak and out of touch with reality. What I will do instead, is propose to the OP of making another thread, titled, peace time co operation between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Once the situation is more peaceful, not like the current one, Pakistan and Afghanistan should bring about an agreement on bi-lateral Trade.

Many commodities are smuggled into Afghanistan from the NWFP, so much so that there availability in the very regions that produced them becomes difficult. There is a huge loss of revenue to Pakistan and NWFP. This does not promote actual development in Afghanistan as well, but only makes them more dependent on us.

Such an economic co-operation would serve as a basis for any future heart warming union, partial or complete."

Any one, facilitating, wishful thinking greater than what I have proposed is just deluded by the feel good mindset. Reality on the ground is quite different. Spending more time on such issues will bring about nothing.

PS: to the OP, I hardly doubt you are an ethnic Punjabi as you proclaim. Still, if you are, you are not a Pakistani one or you would have known what majority Afghans feel about Pakistanis especially Punjabis. It is not heart warming to say the least. And of all the elasticities in Afghanistan, all except the Afghans(Pushtuns) point Pakistan and Pakistanis as the source of all their woes, wrongly but they do.

 

[Watani]

@Afg-Pak
Once again you are asking fire to merge with water and you know the outcome of it, right? I would again say it's best both countries first try to be political friends and then think about anything else because Pakistan got separated from India with much trouble and Afghanistan left Iran by facing many troubles afterwards, so I guess both countries have had it with merging and/or dividing. I won't say Tajiks and Uzbek's are enemies of Pakistan or hate Pakistan but politically only Pashtuns have been friends with Pakistan, which eventually has had very bad outcomes as well. And to those who still think Afghanistan and people of Afghanistan want to harm Pakistan, then please read the this part of the following article which has been explained very beautifully by mister Ramazan Bashardost;

'We Don't Hate Pakistan'

I am absolutely sure that the security element in Pakistan closely follows the economic and the political elements and we must have a very clean relationship with Pakistan. I am absolutely sure that the Pakistani government believes that Afghanistan is a good friend of India. And India’s government uses Afghanistan against Pakistan’s interest in the region because Mr. Karzai studied in India and Mr. Abdullah has a close relationship with India; His family lives there. If Pakistan’s government sees that the Afghan government is really independent of Iran, India, or Russia then I am absolutely sure that Pakistan will have no interest in Afghan affairs.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

'We Don't Hate Pakistan'

Sadly, because of its geo-political place in history, Afghanistan has always had to face the involvement of its neighbors, willingly or un willingly, and in relation to this topic, one of the most fiery issues between the two is the dark thought of being used against one another.

There are no similarities between Afghanistan and India but there are almost no differences (all types except political) between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Their culture, society, history, language, tradition and religion are all the same. BUT all that is the past.

As I said, the current situation is dominated by "use and be used" politics, of which Afghanistan had to suffer the most and most of which has been designed as a bloody non removable wedge between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Before you can change that, dont waste time in wishful thinking.

 

[afpakproject]

PS: to the OP, I hardly doubt you are an ethnic Punjabi as you proclaim. Still, if you are, you are not a Pakistani one or you would have known what majority Afghans feel about Pakistanis especially Punjabis. It is not heart warming to say the least. And of all the elasticities in Afghanistan, all except the Afghans(Pushtuns) point Pakistan and Pakistanis as the source of all their woes, wrongly but they do.[/QUOTE]

I purposefully posted that because I am aware of the negative fallout vis-a-vis Pakistan in Afghanistan -- and Punjabis seem to get labelled as the root of every problem -- kind of like in the Muslim world we think America is at the root of every problem. Interestingly America is very unpopular in Pakistan yet the number of Pakistanis wanting to immigrate to the US is well large part of the population. Similarly Afghans may rightly or wrongly think Pakistan is at the root of every problem but that does not stop them from immigrating to Pakistan.

A good corollary is how the French and Italians felt about Germany yet all three are now in the EU.

Could you enumerate the ground realities that would make this impossible. I think the posted time frame is 50-100 years -- a lot more has been accomplish in world history in far less time (such as the creation of Pakistan) and in far adverse conditions.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

I purposefully posted that because I am aware of the negative fallout vis-a-vis Pakistan in Afghanistan -- and Punjabis seem to get labelled as the root of every problem -- kind of like in the Muslim world we think America is at the root of every problem. Interestingly America is very unpopular in Pakistan yet the number of Pakistanis wanting to immigrate to the US is well large part of the population. Similarly Afghans may rightly or wrongly think Pakistan is at the root of every problem but that does not stop them from immigrating to Pakistan.

A good corollary is how the French and Italians felt about Germany yet all three are now in the EU.

Could you enumerate the ground realities that would make this impossible. I think the posted time frame is 50-100 years -- a lot more has been accomplish in world history in far less time (such as the creation of Pakistan) and in far adverse conditions.

^^ --> :

Interestingly America is very unpopular in Pakistan

Completely disagree, there is no hate for America or hatred for its people, there is however dislike for its policies

Punjabis seem to get labelled as the root of every problem

Those in power must face responsibility, hate .... No, issues.....Yes.

but that does not stop them from immigrating to Pakistan.

When your life expectancy from the various reasons out there is measured in the milli seconds, you tend to save your life. An "Au response naturale"

A good corollary is how the French and Italians felt about Germany yet all three are now in the EU.

The word here is ......... felt, you said it yourself, feeling about something is different than hate. Germany had issues, issues that were over come.

Could you enumerate the ground realities that would make this impossible.

0) Puppet Governments not reflective of either countries' peoples' and a lack of true Democracy
1) Presence of Foreign Troops.
2) Presence of Enemy Countries' intelligence personnel.
3) Separation of ethnic Pushtuns from the Main Political Arena.
4) Targeting of Pushtuns on either side.
5) Propaganda against Pakistan and Punjabis in Afghanistan.
6) Smuggling instead of True Trade.
7) Lack of bilateral relationship.
8) Easing visa and trans border travel.
9) Policies of non involvement in either country by all relevant countries.
10) Lack of an Economic Basis of co operation.
11) Lack of promotion of similar cultural, social and moral traditions.

I could go on if you like..................