Afghanistan Is With Pakistan

[Indus Pakistan]

@A-Team My friend you need to tell this neanderthal that ethnic nationalism will rip our world apart. I think you know I am history fan and do lot of reading as hobby. Today we live in 2016. The borders are as they exist. Everything in our part of the world was shaped by Europeans. This is fact. India. Pakistan. Made in Britain. Afghanistan. Fabricated by Britain/Tsarist Russia. You read up on the borders being drawn by British/Russian officials and leaving Afghanistan as "buffer zone". We can look at this later in another thread.

Afghanistan norther boundary was fixed by British/Russian > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/boundaries-iii

However what you need to explain to your uncouth countryman is that if ethnic nationalism along Afghan/Pashtun pathway took off it would follow a logical course where all Pashtuns from both sides of the border would join together, But then consider the Hazara Mongol? Why the hell should they stay in "Pashtunistan"? Ditto Uzbeks. Ditto Turkmen? Ditto Tajiks? Ditto Nuristani? As those people are not Afghans within the definition of ethnic nationalism.

On the other hand if you contrive that Hazara are Afghan in national sense and can be included in a confederated ethnic nationlism then the exact same argument can be made for Pakistan. We can also contrive that we each have ethnic groups but all are Pakistani. In other words there are two layers of existance.

Finally do explain to your countryman the bloodshed that would flow. Would Pashtunistan throw out the Hazara? Would K-PK throw out the Punjabi. What would happen to areas like Attock, Mianwali etc The populations do not have clean lines in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Would killing on mass scale take place. Do we really want that? Are we not suffered enough? Is this region not backward enough as it is?

Where are you going to draw the lines? And if you insist on our side of Durand there are only Pashtuns then by god we expect on other side of Durand to be clean and pure Pashtun zone. We do not want any dirt on other side either. Map below with the reality.

Have real good look at this. Pakistan and Afghanistan both are multi-ethnic countries.

n Afghanistan we call these other groups

Ditto Pakistan. We all have differant ethnic groups but federated under one flag like you have differant ethnic groups federated under one flag.


I let @A-Team explain what I said. I think he is on the same page as me.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

In Afghanistan we call these other groups by their names because that is were they came from. Tajik Uzbek etc. They are not native Afghans (Pashtuns). They are Afghan nationals because they've lived and fought for the country. When a Pashtun calls a hazara an Afghan, it's referring to their nationality not the ethnicity.

you are proving this fact that people belong to different ethnic groups could have same nationality which is true for every country. If you are backing the creation of states based purely on ethnicity then why do you live in United states ? Go back to kabul where you will be surrounded by people sharing same language, ethnicity and religion

 

[Kandahari]

Yes. You people were so muslims that your king refused to let in the movement that first came to Afghanistan, so much for being muslims. And yet after 50 years your people shamelessly came and the offspring of those whom you refused to seek refuge in your country, took you with open arms. Once an ungrateful will always remain an ungrateful.

Hahaha majority of the refugees lived in pashtun lands. Pakistan accepted billions in foreign aid for the refugees but stole the funds to build a bomb that is useless and will never be used unless you're a Kufar. Why would anyone accept a movement that seeks to divide two nations? Would you accept isis? I wouldn't doubt that your leaders would support them. Or how about Israel? They were created similarly to Pakistan, same plan, different religion, same cause/effect in the region.

 

[Braith]

I have had dealings with many Mongol Hazara Afghans and others. I have not had any problems. Nice enough people but honestly they could have been Kazahks or Tatars from Russia as far as I was concerned. Some might have even got away walking in Japan. I have however no problems with them.

But what I take extreme issue with @Kandahari and I have tempered my reaction because of @A-Team is that he takes licence with the ethnic cleavages that exist in Pakistan between the differant ethnic groups in Pakistan. However he conveniently overlooks that there are bigger even bigger cleavages in Afghanistan between the ethnic groups.

Afghan in the strictest sense of the word means "Pashtuns" but if that is taken as literal meaning the Mongol Hazara suddenly become foreigners in their own land. If Afghan Pashtuns decide to shed all the other garbage [Mongol Hazara, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Aimak] that they have accreted then they @Kandahari would be justified in coming to Pakistan and asking we do the same. Until then your preaching something and living another. And that does not go I am afraid.

@A-Team Thoughts?


Ps. Guys lets have proper discussion. This gives us real opportunity to get to grips with the matters raised. Let us see who will prevail. Let reason and discourse prevail.

Actually the current Afghanistan is not the first state with this name in the history.....there was another independent state in the medieval times (13th century) which was called Afghanistan , the capital of which was Mastung (nowadays a district in Baluchistan)......eastward its boundary was extended to bhakkar town in Sindh (Sukkar, not to be confused with Punjab's bhakkar), which was an Afghan settlement in that period.......details about that state and its ruler are given in Tarikh-i-nama Herat written in 1322 A.D......the capital of that state was in nowadays Pakistan ! and it was ironically capital of Afghanistan.......and in 18th century, Peshawar of nowadays Pakistan was winter capital of Afghanistan.....

Pakistani extremists/ultra-nationalists want their Pashtun countrymen to dissociate themselves from their natural and historic identity of Afghan......those who refuse to shed it, are labelled 'ghadars' and are told to pack their bags and migrate to Afghanistan.......so these extremists are doing what Hindus do with Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims, whenever they express a softer stance for Pakistan, are labelled ghadar and are asked to migrate towards Pakistan

 

[salarsikander]

Hahaha majority of the refugees lived in pashtun lands. Pakistan accepted billions in foreign aid for the refugees but stole the funds to build a bomb that is useless and will never be used unless you're a Kufar. Why would anyone accept a movement that seeks to divide two nations? Would you accept isis? I wouldn't doubt that your leaders would support them. Or how about Israel? They were created similarly to Pakistan, same plan, different religion, same cause/effect in the region.

If pakistan stole Billions then by now none of the refugee should exist. Cause they would have got starved to death, but what do we see here, something opposite we see them here with big established businesses.

LOL Comparing my forefather with ISIS ( The mad dog killers) Now is that how low can you get or even more? So, tell me where the Islam now?
Lol What Country ? When was India one ful country ? @Kaptaan Sire, Please gives the Map of British Raj India, the deluded Afghani seems to have forgotten the history.

So basically When it comes to Afghans the Islam is dead but when it comes to us The duty lies upon us ? By the way becoming world's most drug producing nation and with Bachabazi Culture Afghanistan is far away from becoming a nation let alone ISlamic for that matter

Hahaha majority of the refugees lived in pashtun lands

Bul shit. They were refused to be housed.

They were created similarly to Pakistan, same plan, different religion, same cause/effect in the region.

Pakistan wasnt created nor forced, The different state ruler were asked to join either Pakistan or India both new nation that emerged from single british raj. Unlike Israel were hordes of jews were shipped in and who wwen to forcefully remove the natives. I am not surprised at all, after all living in eternity in the caves does give one hallucinations and makes one oblivious of the reality and on top of that smoking naswar makes on very short of memory

 

[Khan_21]

Hahaha majority of the refugees lived in pashtun lands. Pakistan accepted billions in foreign aid for the refugees but stole the funds to build a bomb that is useless and will never be used unless you're a Kufar. Why would anyone accept a movement that seeks to divide two nations? Would you accept isis? I wouldn't doubt that your leaders would support them. Or how about Israel? They were created similarly to Pakistan, same plan, different religion, same cause/effect in the region.

We build the bomb by refugee aid that we got ? boy oh boy are you losing the plot . Its a nuclear bomb not a 10 floor building .

 

[paki_rambo]

Eh I've heard a lot about the bars and clubs in Islamabad... murree brewery was created by British and continues to be run by "Muslims" if you can call them that.

and we have heard alot about bacha bazzi in Afghanistan
muree brewery is run by Isphanyar M. Bhandara he is a parsi
his father M.Bhandara was a MNA and minority representative

in case of Afghanistan
poppy is cultivated by so called muslim afghans

 

[Kandahari]

This is wrong Iblis beta, they are living in their own land. Most of so called Afghanistan belong to "non-afghans". You are just biggest ethnic minorty with 40% of pop.

If they are living in their own land then you would think they would have some of their own as the rulers... That is why the land is called Afghanistan and written in history is that in this land there are Afghans.

They know better than to try to change the name from Afghanistan. They too themselves know the land belongs to Pashtuns and are okay/proud of being called Uzbek Tajik etc.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Braith I know all that. And yes I am aware how some start using the "Afghan" thing to whip the same sort of mentality that Indians do with Muslims. That is wrong and dangerous road to go on. It is surprising how the abised can become the abuser like Jews in Israel. This is most obvious in Karachi. The refugees become the refugge haters/.

@Everybody else. I can't be bothered with giving replies to each tag. What I think we need to do at PDF is organize list of questions and then research each subject - then produce ready made reply with facts. Sort of have off the shelf fact cards. I will get some sorted out and others can contribute. This thing having to reply to same thing again and again is tedious.

 

[Kandahari]

you are proving this fact that people belong to different ethnic groups could have same nationality which is true for every country. If you are backing the creation of states based purely on ethnicity then why do you live in United states ? Go back to kabul where you will be surrounded by people sharing same language, ethnicity and religion

Yes different ethnic groups could share one nationality.

No, I'm not backing the CREATION of states, nor creation of states based on ethnicity. (Pashtun-Pakistani yes, Pakistani-Pashtun does not exist)

I will goto my country when your people/military stop interfering and fueling chaos.

 

[Kabira]

If they are living in their own land then you would think they would have some of their own as the rulers... That is why the land is called Afghanistan and written in history is that in this land there are Afghans.

They know better than to try to change the name from Afghanistan. They too themselves know the land belongs to Pashtuns and are okay/proud of being called Uzbek Tajik etc.

See this map, the green areas are extent of true Afghanistan. Afghanistan doesn't belong to pashtuns alone, not even most of it in fact. Nationalist afghan leaders interference in Pakistan failed miserably, remember pashtunistan? While Pakistan in response after 1973 was successful pitching tajiks/hazaras etc vs afghan pashtuns, civil war which is still going on to this day. Yes they are very proud.

Learn to live with each other now that Pakistan have closed doors on likes of you. This is best advice anyone can give to afghani.

 

[saiyan0321]

.

We build the bomb by refugee aid that we got ? boy oh boy are you losing the plot . Its a nuclear bomb not a 10 floor building .

A nuclear bomb has suddenly become useless. The power US brags. The power the legal nuclear bomb holders don't want the world to get and the power that Israel holds as well as India has suddenly become useless. That's the first time I am hearing this refugee aid being diverted rubbish bcz I was under the impression that the Arab countries especially Saudi Arabia and Libya funded the project bcz Saudis wanted the nuclear umbrella of pakistan and Libya actually wanted the bomb. The project under the regime of Bhutto and funds and facilities and capital was brought in that era long before the Russian invasion of Afghanistan.

The refugees have been treated here better than any country anywhere. No country allows refugees to run all over the country, making colonies and holding business wherever they liked. Most are kept at camps which are checked and regulated. In fact if you notice the recent surge of articles about refugees, its always about how they are selling their businesses, houses and uprooting a life they have made here and are returning to afghanistan. They have lived very comfortably here as they got aid from UN, from pak govt as well as freedom to start and work on their own business. A luxury refugees all over the world don't get.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

@A-Team My friend you need to tell this neanderthal that ethnic nationalism will rip our world apart. I think you know I am history fan and do lot of reading as hobby. Today we live in 2016. The borders are as they exist. Everything in our part of the world was shaped by Europeans. This is fact. India. Pakistan. Made in Britain. Afghanistan. Fabricated by Britain/Tsarist Russia. You read up on the borders being drawn by British/Russian officials and leaving Afghanistan as "buffer zone". We can look at this later in another thread.

Afghanistan norther boundary was fixed by British/Russian > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/boundaries-iii

However what you need to explain to your uncouth countryman is that if ethnic nationalism along Afghan/Pashtun pathway took off it would follow a logical course where all Pashtuns from both sides of the border would join together, But then consider the Hazara Mongol? Why the hell should they stay in "Pashtunistan"? Ditto Uzbeks. Ditto Turkmen? Ditto Tajiks? Ditto Nuristani? As those people are not Afghans within the definition of ethnic nationalism.

On the other hand if you contrive that Hazara are Afghan in national sense and can be included in a confederated ethnic nationlism then the exact same argument can be made for Pakistan. We can also contrive that we each have ethnic groups but all are Pakistani. In other words there are two layers of existance.

Finally do explain to your countryman the bloodshed that would flow. Would Pashtunistan throw out the Hazara? Would K-PK throw out the Punjabi. What would happen to areas like Attock, Mianwali etc The populations do not have clean lines in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Would killing on mass scale take place. Do we really want that? Are we not suffered enough? Is this region not backward enough as it is?

Where are you going to draw the lines? And if you insist on our side of Durand there are only Pashtuns then by god we expect on other side of Durand to be clean and pure Pashtun zone. We do not want any dirt on other side either. Map below with the reality.

Have real good look at this. Pakistan and Afghanistan both are multi-ethnic countries.

Ditto Pakistan. We all have differant ethnic groups but federated under one flag like you have differant ethnic groups federated under one flag.


I let @A-Team explain what I said. I think he is on the same page as me.

most important question is how creating this pahstunsitan will automatically make Afghanistan super power? How it will change the condition of pashtun people? . If we assume 100% of Pashtuns love this idea of Loy Afghanistan but they will still prefer to have access to cities Rawalpindi, Lahore and Karachi rather than Kandahar

 

[saiyan0321]

@Braith I know all that. And yes I am aware how some start using the "Afghan" thing to whip the same sort of mentality that Indians do with Muslims. That is wrong and dangerous road to go on. It is surprising how the abised can become the abuser like Jews in Israel. This is most obvious in Karachi. The refugees become the refugge haters/.

@Everybody else. I can't be bothered with giving replies to each tag. What I think we need to do at PDF is organize list of questions and then research each subject - then produce ready made reply with facts. Sort of have off the shelf fact cards. I will get some sorted out and others can contribute. This thing having to reply to same thing again and again is tedious.

This is actually a brilliant idea. Everyday we have some newbie who comes up and makes the same rubbish normally our eastern neighbour and at one point its not only tiring but annoying so yes some fact cards and ready made answers to copy paste would be a good idea to shut the trolls. I would personally like a screening test so that only those that pass may enter PDF but that's highly unrealistic and highly improbable. Your idea sounds doable and easier to implement.

 

[Braith]

If they are living in their own land then you would think they would have some of their own as the rulers... That is why the land is called Afghanistan and written in history is that in this land there are Afghans.

They know better than to try to change the name from Afghanistan. They too themselves know the land belongs to Pashtuns and are okay/proud of being called Uzbek Tajik etc.

Harmony will improve if name of the country is changed from Afghanistan to Khurasan or some other name......When a Tajik , Hazara or Uzbek in a village of Afghanistan use word Afghan , he means Pashtun. Some Uzbeks and Tajiks did migrate to Afghanistan due to Russian occupation of Central Asia but majority of Tajiks and Uzbeks in northern Afghanistan are natives and Pashtuns were settled there for security of the lands during the reign of Amir Abdul Rahman.......the Northern Afghanistan , is actually Turkestan.........for example the so called Mughal's Turkestan expeditions in 17th century , were actually in Balkh and Badakhashan of Afghanistan which were then ruled by Uzbeks

 

[Imad.Khan]

I am a proud Yousafzai Pukhtoon and a proud Pakistani and i have meet with many Afghans Pukhtoons and Hazaras here in Australia and apart from one guy i have never had any problems, we mingle well and apart from that one guy none of the others have any problems with me or Pakistan, they are actually very nice people, hard-working and polite and hospitable.

Anyone from Melbourne will know of Pamir Restaurant in Dandenong, it was owned by uncle Rahimi, the best Kabuli pallow and Mantu i have ever had.

Yes they do have grievances with Pakistani establishment, the top one being the support of Taliban and i agree we shouldn't have supported them.

To all the members here don't take the words of this Kandahari guy seriously, he doesn't represent all Afghans. Also don't blame all Afghans for the crimes of some. It is exactly how the west is blaming all Muslims for the crimes committed by ISIS