Afghanistan-India Pact Defeats Pakistan Army

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

One can always make hypothetical extrapolations from past situations by proposing different decisions and hence alternate realities based on one's own preconceived version of truth. There is no way of knowing what other results would have been had USA not scattered AQ and Taliban in Afghanistan.. God knows how many more 9/11s would have happened across the world.

And about Pakistan's problems.. what's so different about Pakistan that doesnt hold good for other neighbors of Afg.. Why is only Pakistan finding itself in this mess.. From where I look, Pakistan's problems stem purely from its policies of supporting militants on behest of USA against Soviets in 1980's and then trying to replicate the model after USA left the area in Afghanistan thru Taliban and in Kashmir. And as I said else where, if you dig a hole, you may end up lying in it...

While the argument that the US might not have considered an Iraqi invasion and occupation on the basis of dubious evidence is certainly a 'hypothetical extrapolation', the arguments related to Afghanistan and the current situation are not.

Since my argument against the US invasion and occupation of Afghanistan is based on the Taliban offer to extradite OBL and Co. to a mutually acceptable third country for trial, your argument of 'many other 9/11's' is invalid. Pakistan's problems currently, in terms of a terrorist and extremist blowback, stem primarily from the US decision to invade and occupy Afghanistan, and then Iraq - those actions acted as a catalyst for terrorism worldwide, including in Pakistan, and Al Qaeda expertise in suicide bombings and IED's in Iraq then started showing up in Pakistan, especially as the security situation in Iraq got better and the terrorists who had 'cut their teeth' in Iraq moved to other parts of the world.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

NO , Because India or Indian army does not seek to make pakistan a satellite state of India like what Pakistan wants for Afghanistan . Analogy is incorrect . Nice try though .

Your argument is just as flawed, when you suggest that Pakistan wants to make Afghanistan a 'satellite state of Pakistan'. Pakistan has intervened in Afghanistan because from Day 1 of the creation of the modern State of Pakistan, Afghanistan was opposed to it, voted against its membership to the UN, supported the Baluch rebellions and sheltered the Sardar's leading it, and sought to promote and support rebellions in Pakistan's Tribal areas.

Given that history, Pakistan is justified in ensuring that the Afghanistan of the future does not resort to the same again, whether alone or in concert with India. If Afghans and Afghanistan choose to not come out clearly and accept Pakistan's territorial integrity and sovereignty as it currently stands today, then Pakistan has every right to act to protect its interests.

The other option for the Afghans, if they feel so strongly about their claims against Pakistan, is to use the proper channels and platforms in the international community (such as the UN, ICJ etc.) and raise their claims their, and then we can see whether Afghan claims have any international legal legitimacy or not.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Your argument is just as flawed, when you suggest that Pakistan wants to make Afghanistan a 'satellite state of Pakistan'. Pakistan has intervened in Afghanistan because from Day 1 of the creation of the modern State of Pakistan, Afghanistan was opposed to it, voted against its membership to the UN, supported the Baluch rebellions and sheltered the Sardar's leading it, and sought to promote and support rebellions in Pakistan's Tribal areas.

Given that history, Pakistan is justified in ensuring that the Afghanistan of the future does not resort to the same again, whether alone or in concert with India. If Afghans and Afghanistan choose to not come out clearly and accept Pakistan's territorial integrity and sovereignty as it currently stands today, then Pakistan has every right to act to protect its interests.

The other option for the Afghans, if they feel so strongly about their claims against Pakistan, is to use the proper channels and platforms in the international community (such as the UN, ICJ etc.) and raise their claims their, and then we can see whether Afghan claims have any international legal legitimacy or not.

Pakistan's situation with Afghanistan is quite similar to India situation with the sri lankans in 1970s and 80s when India decided to support the LTTE . It did not work out well for India and India decided to abandon LTTE well in time . Pakistan has to do the same and realise that it is not working well for them too and abandon the Haqqanis , Talibunnies etc before it gets too late if it isnt already .

Your neighbouring country will follow whichever policy it wants to towards you and you can not coerce them into being friendly towards you by supporting their anti-state elements . It doesn't work . India learnt its lesson a long time back . It is time Pakistan learns it too .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan's situation with Afghanistan is quite similar to India situation with the sri lankans in 1970s and 80s when India decided to support the LTTE . It did not work out well for India and India decided to abandon LTTE well in time . Pakistan has to do the same and realise that it is not working well for them too and abandon the Haqqanis , Talibunnies etc before it gets too late if it isnt already .

Your neighbouring country will follow whichever policy it wants to towards you and you can not coerce them into being friendly towards you by supporting their anti-state elements . It doesn't work . India learnt its lesson a long time back . It is time Pakistan learns it too .

Were/are the Sri Lankans claiming Tamil Nadu as part of Sri Lanka and supporting terrorist/separatist movements in Tamil Nadu and sheltering Tamil terrorists?

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Were/are the Sri Lankans claiming Tamil Nadu as part of Sri Lanka and supporting terrorist/separatist movements in Tamil Nadu and sheltering Tamil terrorists?

No but they had taken an anti- india stand and favoured Pakistan .

Just because Afghanistan had ' allegedly' done those things does not justify supporting or maintaining friendly relations with terrorists who want nothing but misery for the people of Afghanistan .

If you have grievances , you must use diplomacy and the international fora for that purpose .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No but they had taken an anti- india stand and favoured Pakistan .

Just because Afghanistan had ' allegedly' done those things does not justify supporting or maintaining friendly relations with terrorists who want nothing but misery for the people of Afghanistan .

If you have grievances , you must use diplomacy and the international fora for that purpose .

Afghanistan did not 'allegedly' do this things - the vote against UN membership, support for Baluch and Pashtun rebels, is acknowledged by Afghan historians and commentators themselves, as is Afghanistan's current refusal to accept Pakistani sovereignty, as demonstrated by frequent statements by high ranking GoA officials.

The advice to 'use diplomacy and international fora' to resolve issues needs to be given to the Afghans first - if they feel so strongly about their territorial claims, take it to the UN or ICJ, and we can see whose claims have international legal validity. But the Afghans, while continuing to claim Pakistani territory and destablize Pakistan, show no interest in using 'diplomacy and international fora', and therefore Pakistan is justified in intervening as it sees fit to neutralize Afghan threats to Pakistani national security - the US after all did much the same in invading Afghanistan and supporting a new regime of brutal, genocidal warlords against the Taliban, and then into power.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm sorry, whilst I'd LOVE this to be true I just can't follow the logic behind the assertion. Because of this ONE pact generations of hatred, scheming, planning and expenditure by PA has finished. If anything this pact would make PA/ISI MORE determined to attack India and Afghanistan. Also it says Pakistan is now caught in a "vice" with India on one side and Afghanistan on the other with India and Afghanistan able to crush Pakistan " in less than a week". I believe India could do this themselves anyway and as ANA is an utterly defence oriented/internal security force that lacks heavy firepower lime MBTs and arty and is just not configured for offensive attacks (unlike IA). Neither is the AnAF with lacks any fast jets or heavy lift capability. (don't get me wrong btw, I'm not attacking ANA, they currently aren't tasked for such operations and hence are only trained/equipped for certain, specialised roles)


This pact to me is a great mov but not the be all and end all. ANA/ANP already are trained by Indian military instructors and many in India. India already has massive development policies in Afghanistan and always intended to step them up.

 

[OrionHunter]

you indians are just too stupid to look at the larger picture, and instead focus on villifying Pakistan every way you can. Can't blame you though, and definitely can't change your narrow mindsets.

Now that's what I call a sweeping statement! I'm an Indian and I ain't stupid! Period!

 

[GURU DUTT]

Afghanistan is a province of Pakistan, not well taken care of. And Delhi fears that.

Edit:

PS. Don't tell us you have signed a *ing piece of paper. We were different than Hindus 70 years back and we are different now. Period.

now that explains all so in the nutshell to my indian freinds just Ignore & Chill(waise bhi aaj sunday hai.Jai beer devta ki!!!!!)

 

[PakShah]

As for the topic,

Afghanistan-India bilateral relations can only go so far.
Afghanistan needs Pakistan, and Afghanistan knows that.
Nobody really takes the "mayor of Kabul" seriously anyways.

Afghanistan will have to choose between (Pakistan + China) and India.

I hope Afghanistan makes the right choice and will be on the side of her neighbors instead being on the side of brutal savages who are oppressing the Kashmiris.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Afghanistan did not 'allegedly' do this things - the vote against UN membership, support for Baluch and Pashtun rebels, is acknowledged by Afghan historians and commentators themselves, as is Afghanistan's current refusal to accept Pakistani sovereignty, as demonstrated by frequent statements by high ranking GoA officials.

The advice to 'use diplomacy and international fora' to resolve issues needs to be given to the Afghans first - if they feel so strongly about their territorial claims, take it to the UN or ICJ, and we can see whose claims have international legal validity. But the Afghans, while continuing to claim Pakistani territory and destablize Pakistan, show no interest in using 'diplomacy and international fora', and therefore Pakistan is justified in intervening as it sees fit to neutralize Afghan threats to Pakistani national security - the US after all did much the same in invading Afghanistan and supporting a new regime of brutal, genocidal warlords against the Taliban, and then into power.

Are the Afghans doing those things now as well ? Have the Pakistanis proven it to the international community? How are you sure that a democratic , free Afghanistan will follow those policies ?

The advice of 'diplomacy and international' fora goes for both sides that seek to use terrorism as a form of state policy . Only one can't be pointed out . Just because Pakistan fears a future anti Pakistan policy from Afghanistan does not mean that they can be allowed to follow such a policy of using state terrorism as a tool of diplomacy.

 

[PakShah]

Are the Afghans doing those things now as well ? Have the Pakistanis proven it to the international community? How are you sure that a democratic , free Afghanistan will follow those policies ?

The advice of 'diplomacy and international' fora goes for both sides that seek to use terrorism as a form of state policy . Only one can't be pointed out . Just because Pakistan fears a future anti Pakistan policy from Afghanistan does not mean that they can be allowed to follow such a policy of using state terrorism as a tool of diplomacy.

However the Afghanistan is hosting one of the traitorous Balochi terrorist leaders. If Afghanistan is hosting terrorists that want to hurt Pakistan, we too in the name of justice can do the same to Afghanistan.

By the way, in furthering AM's post, Pakistan has been in existence for 64 years. Why hasn't Afghanistan brought their baseless claims to the UN yet?

Why hasn't Afghanistan taken her claims to the OIC, if Afghanistan had any claims on Pakistani land?

 

[GURU DUTT]

However the Afghanistan is hosting one of the traitorous Balochi terrorist leaders. If Afghanistan is hosting terrorists that want to hurt Pakistan, we too in the name of justice can do the same to Afghanistan.

By the way, in furthering AM's post, Pakistan has been in existence for 64 years. Why hasn't Afghanistan brought their baseless claims to the UN yet?

Why hasn't Afghanistan taken her claims to the OIC, if Afghanistan had any claims on Pakistani land?

because they think its not worthit

 

[PakShah]

because they think its not worthit

What a crock of nonsense. Cho-tis-see bacha, don't make me lose my temper on you.

Pakistan has been IN EXISTENCE FOR 64 YEARS.
Afghanistan had A LOT of TIME TO GO TO:
1) OIC
2) UN
3) ICJ - International Court of Justice

By the way, why are we discussing something that has already been debunked. Afghanistan's claim on Pakistan's lands is baseless.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Are the Afghans doing those things now as well ? Have the Pakistanis proven it to the international community? How are you sure that a democratic , free Afghanistan will follow those policies ?

The GoA is not doing those things now because it is too busy fighting an insurgency (though the repeated terrorist attacks against Pakistani troops and civilians out of North Eastern Afghanistan do indicate some sort of US/Afghan support for those elements) -however, various GoA military and civilian leaders have continued to make claims on Pakistani territory - a few of those statements have been discussed on this forum in the last few months alone.

And do keep in mind that the Wikileaks indicated that the US and GoA were sheltering one of Pakistan's most wanted Baluch terrorist leaders and his associates - brahamdegh Bugti. The US and GoA then facilitated his escape to Switzerland where he is applying for asylum. So Afghanistan is continuing with same kinds of actions to destabilize Pakistan that it undertook in the past.

The advice of 'diplomacy and international' fora goes for both sides that seek to use terrorism as a form of state policy . Only one can't be pointed out . Just because Pakistan fears a future anti Pakistan policy from Afghanistan does not mean that they can be allowed to follow such a policy of using state terrorism as a tool of diplomacy.

One side can be pointed out to have the primary responsibility in this case- Pakistan considers its border with Afghanistan to be legal and permanent under international law - the Afghans insist it is not, yet they also don't want to take the issue to any international forum (likely because they know they will lose). So they have engaged in supporting terrorists and insurgents against Pakistan. Given past actions by Afghanistan, and their continued rejection of the Durand Agreement, Pakistan cannot simply 'hope' that Afghanistan has changed its ways. The only way Pakistan can know for sure is if Afghanistan officially accepts the Durand Line, or officially takes the issue to an international forum and respects by the decision of that forum.