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Afghanistan-India Pact Defeats Pakistan Army

You write a pretty long post despite not being interested in the topic.. Thank God you were not.. Interested that is.. ;)

uhh yea -- i don't need you to be my assistant or spokesperson to tell me what I am and what I am not interested in discussing...thanks


anyway on topic, the NA is no where in the picture in this discussion.

i am bringing it into discussion because you and your peoples are villifying Pakistan, making it sound like its responsible for ALL the ills of Afghanistan as if you (or your former 'soviet' friends) and all other stakeholders or regional 'players' did not do the exact same thing --except you supported the ''other side''


Since the collapse of the Taliban regime in northern Afghanistan in November 2001, ethnic Pashtuns throughout northern Afghanistan have faced widespread abuses including killings, sexual violence, beatings, extortion, and looting. Pashtuns are being targeted because their ethnic group was closely associated with the Taliban regime, whose leadership consisted mostly of Pashtuns from southern Afghanistan.

Directly implicated in many of the abuses are the three main ethnically-based parties and their militias in northern Afghanistan-the predominantly ethnic Uzbek Junbish-i Milly-yi Islami, the predominately ethnic Tajik Jamiat-e Islami, and the ethnic Hazara Hizb-i Wahdat-as well as non-aligned armed Uzbeks, Tajiks, and Hazaras who are taking advantage of the vulnerability of unprotected and selectively disarmed Pashtun communities.

In response to reports of abuses against Pashtuns, Human Rights Watch sent a team of four researchers to northern Afghanistan in February and March 2002. The team visited dozens of Pashtun villages and communities in four northern provinces (Balkh, Faryab, Samangan, and Baghlan) and also met with representatives of the Afghan interim administration, diplomatic representatives, and humanitarian workers.

Widespread looting and extortion of Pashtun communities was documented throughout the region. A typical pattern of attacks emerged in the Shoor Darya region of Faryab province. Local villagers said armed Uzbeks associated with the local Junbish faction took away their guns (but not those of members of other ethnic groups) in mid-November and proceeded to violently loot their villages, taking livestock, stored grains, household goods, carpets, money, and jewelry over the course of the next few weeks-a period described by one villager as "forty days of terror."

In many Pashtun villages, the looting was accompanied by severe beatings of Pashtun men and sometimes women. M.J., an elder of the Pashtun village of Spin Kot in Balkh province, described a typical beating, committed in this case by Hazara soldiers: "One was twisting my head and two were kicking me in the back. They were beating me with a shovel, questioning me about guns and money. They beat me there for about two, two and a half hours." The beatings finally stopped when M.J. showed the soldiers where he had hidden his money. A.S., a wealthy livestock owner from the Shoor Darya region, was almost beaten to death by two Junbish soldiers who wanted money from him: "At first they choked me with my turban. I lost consciousness, and they tied my hands. Then they started beating me with a kardoom [a cable with a metal ball at the end]. I can't remember how many times they hit me, on my back, my legs, my hands. They broke my arm with the kardoom." The beating stopped when A.S. agreed to give the men money and hand over his motorbike.

Cases of abductions for ransom were documented throughout the region. Junbish soldiers arrested M.K and his friend, both Pashtun villagers from Hassan Khel in Samangan province, in late December, and kept them for a week in a basement, beating them with wire cables, until the men agreed to pay money.

Raiders also killed Pashtun civilians during the looting. In the village of Bargah-e Afghani, located in the Chimtal district of Balkh province, Hazara gunmen killed thirty-seven Pashtun men after tying most of them up, beating them in front of their families, and demanding money to spare their lives. In the nearby village of Yengi Qala, Hazara gunmen killed four men and two elderly women during looting. Junbish soldiers beat to death two Pashtun boys, aged fifteen and eighteen, in the village of Deshdan Bala in Balkh province. A village elder, Lal Jan, was severely beaten and then taken away by Uzbek gunmen in the Shoor Darya valley of Faryab province: he is presumed dead.

Women and girls were also raped during the looting raids. In Balkh city, Hazara gunmen gang-raped a fourteen-year-old Pashtun girl and her mother, before beating her father unconscious and looting the home. On January 16, 2002, three Hazara soldiers raped a sixteen-year-old girl in Chimtal district. In Kunduz province, Jamiat soldiers beat thirty-year-old P.M. unconscious, and then raped his wife. Human Rights Watch received reports of other cases of rapes, and many women described how they had to fight off attackers or hide young female relatives out of fear of rape.

The most severe looting-related violence has subsided in some areas, but Pashtun communities throughout the north remain extremely vulnerable to serious human rights abuses. Human Rights Watch documented several cases of abuse that occurred during our visits. In one village in Shoor Darya, the sudden arrival of Human Rights Watch researchers scared off two Uzbek gunmen who had come to extort money from the village elders. In another village in Samangan province, a village elder told Human Rights Watch that he had been forced to give up twelve of his sheep to a local Junbish commander on the morning of our visit. On February 20, 2002, N.M., from Qona Qala village in Baghlan province, was beaten by a local Jamiat commander who wanted money: "They hit me with a stick and a rifle butt. The [commander] was holding me, and the son beat me for thirty minutes.... While I was being beaten, my wife came to ask them to spare me. They kicked her hard." In Samangan province, the Human Rights Watch team was informed that Junbish soldiers had abducted a Pashtun man from the market the day of our visit, presumably to seek ransom from the family later.

The chairman of the Afghan interim government, Hamid Karzai, has taken some positive steps to address the anti-Pashtun violence in northern Afghanistan, most notably by appointing a three-person independent commission to investigate the issue. But his capacity for addressing the violence is limited, as real power in northern Afghanistan rests with commanders who are associated with the three main parties, including those implicated in the abuses. Leaders of those parties who hold positions in the interim government have on occasion taken corrective action. For example, General Abdul Rashid Dostum has removed some abusive Junbish commanders from power, most noticeably in Faryab province, and has placed new commanders among threatened Pashtun communities to protect them-but other Junbish commanders continue to carry out abuses with seeming impunity. An Afghan national army that could guarantee the security of all Afghans is only in the conception stage, there is no national police force, and a security vacuum exists in the meantime.

The international community needs to act to stop the violence against Pashtuns in northern Afghanistan, a task that for the foreseeable future cannot be handled solely by the Afghan authorities. Both the signatories of the Bonn Agreement and the United Nations Security Council have entrusted the U.N. with a great deal of responsibility in helping Afghanistan achieve a civilian representative government. The U.N. Security Council needs to expand the mandate of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) for Afghanistan to include areas outside Kabul, most urgently northern Afghanistan. Efforts at accountability for past and current abuses should be accelerated, and the capacity of United Nations agencies in Afghanistan and the interim government to monitor human rights abuses must be bolstered. The United Nations should work to identify vulnerable minority populations, including those who are displaced from their homes, and make particular efforts to ensure the delivery of humanitarian assistance to these communities. With international financial support, the U.N. should assist the Afghan government in establishing impartial, multiethnic commissions at the local level to resolve grievances and disputes between communities over land, property, and access to water resources.

Source: UNHCR Report, 23 March 2010


Read thru the chain and you would know.. It really doesnt matter whether you were terse with Taliban sometimes or not. At the end of it, you were the only govt in the world who recognized a terrorist govt to the date it was thrown out by USA from Afghanistan..

Saudi Arabia and the UAE recognized them as well; in fact the Americans, despite the lack of an exchange of diplomats with that regime in Kabul, were very much in contact with the taleban government. In fact, if they viewed the taleban government as ''terrorist'' (which you claim) then why was the U.S. trying to get Afghanistan (under taleban rule) to join in on the TAPI pipeline?

(Afghanistan, the TAPI Pipeline, and Energy Geopolitics)


And its the other side of this coin that is eating away at your country in the form of Extremism, TTP and sectarian violence

the Afghan taleban is an Afghan phenomenon. The insurgent and sectarian groups (which in some instances, their factions are working hand-in-hand) which we are facing are being dealt with. You've been on the forum long enough to know that we are in an all-out war against these miscreants and have seen many successes. Some failures or shortfalls as well.


But it seems that you Pakistanis were too stupid to preempt it and too incompetent to address it now...

the real stupids are those who boast big, and have little roast to show for it....

and that would have to go to you and your people who habitually pollute this forum with nonsense and emotionally-driven statements
 
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At the end of it, you were the only govt in the world who recognized a terrorist govt to the date it was thrown out by USA from Afghanistan..And its the other side of this coin that is eating away at your country in the form of Extremism, TTP and sectarian violence..But it seems that you Pakistanis were too stupid to preempt it and too incompetent to address it now...
At the 'end of it', Pakistan's position at the time, of negotiating, pressuring the Taliban government to hand over OBL, possibly to a neutral country as they were open to doing, is being validated every single day the US occupation and the Taliban insurgency continues and human and economic costs pile up.

The problems Pakistan faces today are not because of the policies Pakistan pursued, but because of the decision the US made to invade Afghanistan rather than pursue the available alternatives at the time - and as I said before, had it not been for the quick initial Afghan invasion and military victory, the US planners would not have been so flippant about considering war on the basis of lies against Iraq, and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents and catalyzing the spread of terrorism worldwide.
 
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You mean Haqqani? Are they terrorist? I am afraid US is not of the opinion.

So now you need US to define who is a terrorist and who is not? If Haqqanis are not native to Pakistan and they are foreign armed men, what business do they have in Pakistan?

At the 'end of it', Pakistan's position at the time, of negotiating, pressuring the Taliban government to hand over OBL, possibly to a neutral country as they were open to doing, is being validated every single day the US occupation and the Taliban insurgency continues and human and economic costs pile up.

The problems Pakistan faces today are not because of the policies Pakistan pursued, but because of the decision the US made to invade Afghanistan rather than pursue the available alternatives at the time - and as I said before, had it not been for the quick initial Afghan invasion and military victory, the US planners would not have been so flippant about considering war on the basis of lies against Iraq, and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents and catalyzing the spread of terrorism worldwide.

So handing ove OBL would have solved the mess Afghanistan was in ? Was Taliban leadership not hand in glove with Al -Q ? Why does everyone forget what was Taliban before WoT.
 
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handing over OBL (who by that time was already bouncing checks anyways and was more of a liability) could possibly have spared Afghanistan from being invaded by NATO --led by America, which was licking its wounds and irate (understandably) after the terrorists attacks on 11/9 2001.

Mullah Omar, being stubborn and in line with his Pashtun nature was unwilling to immediately hand over a guest (hospitality, even for enemies or pseudo-enemies is a norm in the traditional Pakhtun tribal code of honour). In hindsight, it would have been better for him to do that. Behind the seens, Mullah Omar's relations with OBL were not even that warm. He felt that the foreign Arabs were compromising his writ and influence in the predominantly Pakhtun Afghanistan. This is a fact, by the way and i reccomend you brush up on your research and facts.


now to get back to the taleban itself as an organization --one which we can't just wish away.....well, do we agree with their very austere and sometimes violent approach? No, we do not. Pakistan was very clear about it even since the time of Nawaz Sharif's regime. The secular democratic Benazir Bhutto likened the taleban as ''her own sons'' (remember, these fundamentalists were called ''freedom fighters'' and ''Gods children'' by even the Reagan admin).


diplomacy and pressure could have been applied......invading them was a HUGE bloody mistake.


and NATO is realizing that, which is why they are in behind-a-sound-proofed-wall negotiations with them
 
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So now you need US to define who is a terrorist and who is not? If Haqqanis are not native to Pakistan and they are foreign armed men, what business do they have in Pakistan?

You have a problem conceiving things, whatever I said in this post has a lot to do with my previous posts on this thread.

The second part of your post has been already replied, but looks you might miss that. The boarder that Pakistan shares with Afghanistan has a length about 2600 kms, it is impossible to seal the boarder physically because of the extremely complex mountains. Even then Pakistan has tried a couple times but every time people from Afghanistan intervene (that I can not understand why when you are going to have no infiltration?)

Being an ally, Pakistan has stationed approximately 150000 Pakistani troops at Afghan border to minimize terrorist movement. It is not only our responsibility to halt the infiltration, US NATO and ANA are equally responsible to intercept militants crossing the boarder. So ask it from authorities in Afghanistan how Haqqanis managed to enter Pakistan, why did they let them to escape?.
 
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At the 'end of it', Pakistan's position at the time, of negotiating, pressuring the Taliban government to hand over OBL, possibly to a neutral country as they were open to doing, is being validated every single day the US occupation and the Taliban insurgency continues and human and economic costs pile up.

The problems Pakistan faces today are not because of the policies Pakistan pursued, but because of the decision the US made to invade Afghanistan rather than pursue the available alternatives at the time - and as I said before, had it not been for the quick initial Afghan invasion and military victory, the US planners would not have been so flippant about considering war on the basis of lies against Iraq, and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents and catalyzing the spread of terrorism worldwide.

One can always make hypothetical extrapolations from past situations by proposing different decisions and hence alternate realities based on one's own preconceived version of truth. There is no way of knowing what other results would have been had USA not scattered AQ and Taliban in Afghanistan.. God knows how many more 9/11s would have happened across the world.

And about Pakistan's problems.. what's so different about Pakistan that doesnt hold good for other neighbors of Afg.. Why is only Pakistan finding itself in this mess.. From where I look, Pakistan's problems stem purely from its policies of supporting militants on behest of USA against Soviets in 1980's and then trying to replicate the model after USA left the area in Afghanistan thru Taliban and in Kashmir. And as I said else where, if you dig a hole, you may end up lying in it...
 
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uhh yea -- i don't need you to be my assistant or spokesperson to tell me what I am and what I am not interested in discussing...thanks
heh heh.. you yourself said in the previous post that this does not interest you.. getting old and forgetful ??? ;)


i am bringing it into discussion because you and your peoples are villifying Pakistan, making it sound like its responsible for ALL the ills of Afghanistan as if you (or your former 'soviet' friends) and all other stakeholders or regional 'players' did not do the exact same thing --except you supported the ''other side''
The real mess started post the soviet withdrawal and thats where Pakistani support for Taliban came in..


Saudi Arabia and the UAE recognized them as well; in fact the Americans, despite the lack of an exchange of diplomats with that regime in Kabul, were very much in contact with the taleban government. In fact, if they viewed the taleban government as ''terrorist'' (which you claim) then why was the U.S. trying to get Afghanistan (under taleban rule) to join in on the TAPI pipeline?
KSA and UAE withdrew that recognition before the WOT began.. and outside of hypothetical insinuations, the ground reality is that at the time of WOT start, only Pakistan recognized the terrorist govt of Taliban...



the Afghan taleban is an Afghan phenomenon. The insurgent and sectarian groups (which in some instances, their factions are working hand-in-hand) which we are facing are being dealt with. You've been on the forum long enough to know that we are in an all-out war against these miscreants and have seen many successes. Some failures or shortfalls as well.
And you still think that the one in Afghanistan are good and the ones in Pakistan are bad ??


the real stupids are those who boast big, and have little roast to show for it....

Fits the bill pretty well for GoP and PA at this time...


and that would have to go to you and your people who habitually pollute this forum with nonsense and emotionally-driven statements
Personal insults are the last resort of the incompetent....
 
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We need to be prepared all the time. Pakistani military is not a threat anymore and the threat has evolved into outsourced-non-state actors. However, we cannot risk being caught with our pants down. Preparation is always the best solution especially when we are bogged down with a treacherous leadership, which can never issue an offensive command.


Good thinking I strongly hope like you whole of Indian nation including your political and military leadership believe that Pakistan military and other armed forces are of no threat to you. History is only going to repeat itself and in the long run we know who will have the last laugh. My advise to Indians is to refrain from their false pride in greater manpower and greater technological military equipments superiority cause it's recipe for SUICIDE . Pakistan nation's strength is derived from immense faith and love in ALLAH and his last Messenger, Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) and the qualitatively better training our armed forces have compared to India. India can only dream to corner Pakistan and break it , this so called strategic partnership agreement with a puppet Afghanistan government is actually your signing of the future break up of the Indian federation. I am glad India has accelerated it's proxy war against Pakistan which also includes sponsoring BLA, TTP, MQM, SAFMA And it's water treaty violations. This acceleration of conflict is in reality the road track to Ghazwa-e-hind which is well supported in Hadith of Tirmidhi and saints like Naimatullah shah wali and many saints like him.


Apni maur la jashan manao shiny se !
 
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There is no pro Pak Faction in Afghanistan, and Taliban are included, you guys are just fantsasizing.

Yes and a person sitting in UK knows a lot about the factions in Afghanistan. Actually I do come across tens of Afghanis every day as bread makers, drivers and a boat load of them as manual labours..some on Pakistani passports and some on Afghani passports. I am still searching anti-Pakistan or Pro-Karzai opinions among them. True talibans were never under control of Pakistan but now because of Afghanistan we have got into the mess so Pakistan should at any cost ensure a "proper" Afghanistan as a guarantee of peace for Pakistan. Even if that means repeat of of Talibans.
 
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Afghanistan is a province of Pakistan, not well taken care of. And Delhi fears that.

Edit:

PS. Don't tell us you have signed a *ing piece of paper. We were different than Hindus 70 years back and we are different now. Period.
 
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Afghanistan is a province of Pakistan, not well taken care of. And Delhi fears that.

Edit:

PS. Don't tell us you have signed a *ing piece of paper. We were different than Hindus 70 years back and we are different now. Period.

This very attitude will bring you down. Take care of your country that is 28% lawless and has no control from Islamabad directly or indirectly. Worry about Afghanistan, your backyard after you get that sorted.
 
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Afghanistan is a province of Pakistan, not well taken care of. And Delhi fears that.

Edit:

PS. Don't tell us you have signed a *ing piece of paper. We were different than Hindus 70 years back and we are different now. Period.

Why don't you people concentrate upon your own country? Much of it is up in flames recently.Pakistan is among the top failed nations,and yet,some are there who want Kashmir and some are there who think Afghanistan to be a province of Pakistan.Try to save your own country first.
 
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History is only going to repeat itself and in the long run we know who will have the last laugh. Pakistan nation's strength is derived from immense faith and love in ALLAH and his last Messenger, Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) and the qualitatively better training our armed forces have compared to India. India can only dream to corner Pakistan and break it , this so called strategic partnership agreement with a puppet Afghanistan government is actually your signing of the future break up of the Indian federation. I am glad India has accelerated it's proxy war against Pakistan which also includes sponsoring BLA, TTP, MQM, SAFMA And it's water treaty violations. This acceleration of conflict is in reality the road track to Ghazwa-e-hind which is well supported in Hadith of Tirmidhi and saints like Naimatullah shah wali and many saints like him.

Hmm as usual..Some faint indication to a non existent history,brought in religion (without learning anything from past experiences of using religion as a political tool ),Indication to martial race theory,empty threat of breaking up indian federation (completely forgetting the fact that pakistan was the one broken up last time),right amount of conspiracy theories-india supporting bla bla bla..straight away to ghazwa e hind,and some prophecies..
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:..you missed that equation bro-"1 pakistani=10 indians"..
 
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Ceax thread title. a puppet regime that would not last a couple of days without support of americans does a couple of deals with india and they call it defeat for pakistan. China has done billions of deals with pakistan and two countries surround india does that mean that china and pakistan have defeated india
 
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Ceax thread title. a puppet regime that would not last a couple of days without support of americans does a couple of deals with india and they call it defeat for pakistan. China has done billions of deals with pakistan and two countries surround india does that mean that china and pakistan have defeated india

NO , Because India or Indian army does not seek to make pakistan a satellite state of India like what Pakistan wants for Afghanistan . Analogy is incorrect . Nice try though .
 
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