Afghan Taliban - Strange Bedfellows

[Mr.Green]

As they say, in politics there are strange bedfellows. During Musharraf's time we saw JUI and JI making a successful government in KPK and JI in Karachi in-spite of the fact that there was Musharaff's enlightened and liberal Pakistan strategy running in the rest of the country. There were demonstrations and processions all over the country against America and Musharraf's alliance with them.

Many people made billions for acting as stooges of America in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The followers and paid public servants from Musharraf's failed vision era in the establishment need to wake up to the changed ground reality. The old anti-Taliban propaganda needs to stop as there is no western paymaster for that kind of talk now. Most of the collaborators and carpet-baggers in Afghanistan have left for the western countries where their offshore wealth lies. These kind of people are now dinosaurs of a bygone era. But they are still trying unsuccessfully to maintain their relevance by causing civil war and military operations in the tribal areas. They will become extinct in a few years as most of them will switch their loyalty because the prime motivation was money and it is no longer coming from the West.

With the victory of Afghan Taliban we have to become realists and do political cooperation with them. They can become our political and international allies. It will be an uneasy task but we can manage a working relationship with them.

The new national security doctrine is correct in one respect for accepting geo-economics as being important in relations with India. We need some time to overcome our economic problems and consolidate the gains in Afghanistan.

But the Kashmir issue should not be put on the back burner. We should continue to support the Kashmiris and also support the Sikh freedom struggle via a slow simmering heat as Kashmir can not be freed practically with out there being a free Khalistan.

Parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan were ruled by the Hindushahi dynasty even before the arrival of Muslims. Similarly under the Turk, Afghan and Mughal Dynasties these two regions were under the same rule. The mountains were named Hindukush because the Hindu prisoners used to die on the journey to Afghanistan from India.

Sher Shah Suri made the Grand Trunk Road and made serais and forts along the way for protection of the route. We should open the duty free trade from Afghanistan to Pakistan and vice versa to reap the benefits of this changed political landscape.

 

[Village life]

Talibans have over rated themselves and they believe their accomplishments against foreign invaders were due to only and only their sacrifices! No it's not as simple, Talibans have now mixed ethnicity with Islam which is not Islam unfortunately they are acting more as pashtons then Talibans so let then realize the ground realities then give them due respect,but as long as I believe their this double standard will be the sole reason for a continuous destablity in Afghanistan, they are enemies of their own friends and acclaimments of what they wouldn't have achieved without the sacrifices of Pakistani nation , leave them alone and secure our border with them Allah subhana tallla Will teach them a lesson in a mysterious way , Inshallah ,

 

[R Wing]

As they say, in politics there are strange bedfellows. During Musharraf's time we saw JUI and JI making a successful government in KPK and JI in Karachi in-spite of the fact that there was Musharaff's enlightened and liberal Pakistan strategy running in the rest of the country. There were demonstrations and processions all over the country against America and Musharraf's alliance with them.

Many people made billions for acting as stooges of America in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The followers and paid public servants from Musharraf's failed vision era in the establishment need to wake up to the changed ground reality. The old anti-Taliban propaganda needs to stop as there is no western paymaster for that kind of talk now. Most of the collaborators and carpet-baggers in Afghanistan have left for the western countries where their offshore wealth lies. These kind of people are now dinosaurs of a bygone era. But they are still trying unsuccessfully to maintain their relevance by causing civil war and military operations in the tribal areas. They will become extinct in a few years as most of them will switch their loyalty because the prime motivation was money and it is no longer coming from the West.

With the victory of Afghan Taliban we have to become realists and do political cooperation with them. They can become our political and international allies. It will be an uneasy task but we can manage a working relationship with them.

The new national security doctrine is correct in one respect for accepting geo-economics as being important in relations with India. We need some time to overcome our economic problems and consolidate the gains in Afghanistan.

But the Kashmir issue should not be put on the back burner. We should continue to support the Kashmiris and also support the Sikh freedom struggle via a slow simmering heat as Kashmir can not be freed practically with out there being a free Khalistan.

Parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan were ruled by the Hindushahi dynasty even before the arrival of Muslims. Similarly under the Turk, Afghan and Mughal Dynasties these two regions were under the same rule. The mountains were named Hindukush because the Hindu prisoners used to die on the journey to Afghanistan from India.

Sher Shah Suri made the Grand Trunk Road and made serais and forts along the way for protection of the route. We should open the duty free trade from Afghanistan to Pakistan and vice versa to reap the benefits of this changed political landscape.

The word 'geoeconomics' is absolute cringe. It doesn't mean anything new --- countries have been seeking economic benefit based on their geography since time immemorial.

Everything you've suggested is already happening --- from the Afghan Taliban diplomacy to CPEC projects / operationalization of Gwadar, etc.

We need to become realists in other realms where we area getting our *** kicked, like proxy warfare.

 

[Mr.Green]

The word 'geoeconomics' is absolute cringe. It doesn't mean anything new --- countries have been seeking economic benefit based on their geography since time immemorial.

Everything you've suggested is already happening --- from the Afghan Taliban diplomacy to CPEC projects / operationalization of Gwadar, etc.

We need to become realists in other realms where we area getting our *** kicked, like proxy warfare.

I think it is possible to have trade with India and get cheap vegetables and other stuff that will make the lives of people easier. But in my opinion we can do that while keeping the Kashmir issue alive and also support Sikhs at the same time.

 

[Mr.Green]

Terrorists k sath alliance krnay ki koi zarorat nhi ha. Taliban is terrorist group and a good terrorist is a dead terrorist an alive Taliban is bad for entire humanity

Sir, US escaped from Afghanistan and so we should say goodbye to US policies.

 

[R Wing]

I think it is possible to have trade with India and get cheap vegetables and other stuff that will make the lives of people easier. But in my opinion we can do that while keeping the Kashmir issue alive and also support Sikhs at the same time.

1) I agree.

2) The IOK issue cannot be kept alive except by fueling the insurgency through 'salami tactics;' our diplomatic offenses don't mean jack. Utterly useless. The West, particularly the US has clearly stated (publicly as well as in its own declassified strategy documents) that propping India up (which includes taking India's side on territorial disputes, sharing intel, refraining from public criticism over human rights issues, etc.) in order to contain China is a major US strategic goal for the coming decade(s). So, the useless proclamations, street renaming, irritating jingles, dossiers of proof of Indian rights abuses, etc., are all for moot.

3) To do the above properly (supporting the legitimate freedom struggle directly) requires a level of clandestine sophistication that our current intel officers don't seem to have; Israeli tech and NSA top-sec intel sharing (including real time geocoordinates of freedom fighters) has made things considerably more difficult. But does that mean we give up; that we throw in the towel and use cringe-y excuses to essentially say that our hands are tied? What if we did that when we had to build our nuclear deterrent? I can only thank God that this type of strategic lethargy didn't exist back then, otherwise we wouldn't be a nuclear power today. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures --- we need to up our game, not lower our standards.

4) The solution to the above in a country with intel services that have gone through massive modernization reform and that actively seek the best and brightest men and women in their country to serve (we have done neither) is to come up with innovative and deniable ways to support the insurgency against the illegal occupation. Unfortunately, our policymakers - from GHQ to the PMO - have chosen the lazy, easy way: fooling themselves and the rest of the country that diplomatic and moral support will do the trick. What a joke.

5) Finally, this begs the question: how do we plan to correct our rapidly increasingly deterrence deficit with India in the gray zone - the area of conflict under the threshold of open war? Indian proxy warfare through Baloch militants (and patronage of TTP) leads to regular fatalities in Pakistan. What is our answer? Where can we answer? How? What tool(s) do we have to raise the cost for India's intel and defense establishment to dissuade and deter them? Can a denial-based defensive posture yield peace and stability in the face of a belligerent India itching for escalation?

I rest my case.

@SQ8 @Areesh @Taimoor Khan @PanzerKiel
(tagging to get your thoughts)

 

[Battlion25]

To put it short they are key to our own stragetic depth including longevity and perhaps critical to our existence which may seem to far fatched to many layman.. Since the end of the Afghan war India has gone silent because now Pakistan has the edge on them and note India didn't go silent because of China and it was stil being vocal during that time but the Afghan stragetic depth has thrown their enitre engagement tactics with Pakistan into a toilet sink and not useable. Remember they were overconfident of rolling over Pakistan in just 7-10 days entirely even that was miscalculation and cartoonish but lets just assume India throws it's entire force at us and we won't use nukes or tactical nukes just the conventional pov as an example and I will show you how it handicaps them..

Coming in with all their forces will only work against them as Pakistan has stragetic depth and a very treacherous terrain meaning the entire Indian army could get routed and won't have anything left when the counter-attack comes and that is stragetic depth for you ladies and gents it threw all their bravado and calculations into the dust and nothingness hence India realizes it can only fight now Pakistan from a defensive point of view because any offensive will be fatal hence India is tactically forced into defense.

All you gotta do is sign defense treaty with them and slowly start to arm them handsomely this will force India to sit indefinite and will not resort to an offensive doctrine for the next many coming decades because they will not want to miscalculate and haven't you noticed India has started to talk about first strike options which they never did before it is because they have lost the assumed conventional stragetic advantage meaning Pakistan can defeat them conventionally now if you remove all nukes from the occasion due to this stragetic depth change hence tactically putting them into defensive option.

Pakistan could technically even go west now and venture into other theaters as India will sit indefinite not wanting to miscalculate unless they bring with them an overwhelming coalition like NATO or Russia-China into the picture joining them but these scenarios are extremely unlikely meaning India will sit for indefinite

 

[Mr.Green]

Modi is a tough fellow but the more than year long Farmer's protest of Sikhs broke his back and made him change his policy. Maybe these sort of civilian disobedience movements would be the first stage of action. The Sikhs overseas have voted for a referendum for free Khalistan. We can support these types of movements from London and Canada while maintaining a denial based defensive posture.

For Kashmir, we can allow and divert TTP to start their work there. This will get them off our backs for the time being and also return the pre-9/11 amicable relationship.

We can also introduce Islamic socialist insurgency faction in Kashmir and that can be funded from China and controlled from here.

We can also have a secret Defense Pact with the Afghan Taliban and give them training and technical expertise in civil and defense sectors.

 

[Battlion25]

Modi is a tough fellow but the more than year long Farmer's protest of Sikhs broke his back and made him change his policy. Maybe these sort of civilian disobedience movements would be the first stage of action. The Sikhs overseas have voted for a referendum for free Khalistan. We can support these types of movements from London and Canada while maintaining a denial based defensive posture.

For Kashmir, we can allow and divert TTP to start their work there. This will get them off our backs for the time being and also return the pre-9/11 amicable relationship.

We can also introduce leftist insurgency faction in Kashmir and that can be funded from China and controlled from here.

We can also have a secret Defense Pact with the Afghan Taliban and give them training and technical expertise in civil and defense sectors.

It is not something we just should? No No it is something we must in order to check India completely and indefinite. This new stragetic positioning tactically forces them into defensive posture and Pakistan could do other things without worrying about them the least. Let them marinate in that for few decades

 

[Mr.Green]

It is not something we just should? No No it is something we must in order to check India completely and indefinite. This new stragetic positioning tactically forces them into defensive posture and Pakistan could do other things without worrying about them the least. Let them marinate in that for few decades

You have a patriotic resolve.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

1) I agree.

2) The IOK issue cannot be kept alive except by fueling the insurgency through 'salami tactics;' our diplomatic offenses don't mean jack. Utterly useless. The West, particularly the US has clearly stated (publicly as well as in its own declassified strategy documents) that propping India up (which includes taking India's side on territorial disputes, sharing intel, refraining from public criticism over human rights issues, etc.) in order to contain China is a major US strategic goal for the coming decade(s). So, the useless proclamations, street renaming, irritating jingles, dossiers of proof of Indian rights abuses, etc., are all for moot.

3) To do the above properly (supporting the legitimate freedom struggle directly) requires a level of clandestine sophistication that our current intel officers don't seem to have; Israeli tech and NSA top-sec intel sharing (including real time geocoordinates of freedom fighters) has made things considerably more difficult. But does that mean we give up; that we throw in the towel and use cringe-y excuses to essentially say that our hands are tied? What if we did that when we had to build our nuclear deterrent? I can only thank God that this type of strategic lethargy didn't exist back then, otherwise we wouldn't be a nuclear power today. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures --- we need to up our game, not lower our standards.

4) The solution to the above in a country with intel services that have gone through massive modernization reform and that actively seek the best and brightest men and women in their country to serve (we have done neither) is to come up with innovative and deniable ways to support the insurgency against the illegal occupation. Unfortunately, our policymakers - from GHQ to the PMO - have chosen the lazy, easy way: fooling themselves and the rest of the country that diplomatic and moral support will do the trick. What a joke.

5) Finally, this begs the question: how do we plan to correct our rapidly increasingly deterrence deficit with India in the gray zone - the area of conflict under the threshold of open war? Indian proxy warfare through Baloch militants (and patronage of TTP) leads to regular fatalities in Pakistan. What is our answer? Where can we answer? How? What tool(s) do we have to raise the cost for India's intel and defense establishment to dissuade and deter them? Can a denial-based defensive posture yield peace and stability in the face of a belligerent India itching for escalation?

I rest my case.

@SQ8 @Areesh @Taimoor Khan @PanzerKiel
(tagging to get your thoughts)

I have all the reasons to believe that our rut started with Musharraf gang and still ongoing thanks to policies adopted.


Here we say that football matches are won or lost in the tunnel, not on the pitch. Enslaved minds will never bring success. Imported ideas, colonial DNA, this non sense needs to stop. When the thoughts of "what outsiders will think", is more prevalent over "what our own people will think", throughout the state machinery, you are facing down the barrel.

Pakistan needs free thinkers, whose thought process revolve around this country foundations and clear understanding of them. Any planning and strategy has to evolve when a majority consensuses is reached within, having firm grasp on the pulses of masses, not outsiders whims and wishes. Anyone who manages to get into the "system" not agreeing fully with above, needs to be filtered out.

 

[Menace2Society]

I have all the reasons to believe that our rut started with Musharraf gang and still ongoing thanks to policies adopted.


Here we say that football matches are won or lost in the tunnel, not on the pitch. Enslaved minds will never bring success. Imported ideas, colonial DNA, this non sense needs to stop. When the thoughts of "what outsiders will think", is more prevalent over "what our own people will think", throughout the state machinery, you are facing down the barrel.

You don't have a baseline of a system that works. You are unable to accept the reality your system does not work and you never had a system that worked and you need to adopt the western standard which delivers results.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You don't have a baseline of a system that works. You are unable to accept the reality your system does not work and you never had a system that worked and you need to adopt the western standard which delivers results.

When you need to "adopt" to foreign system, you are already a lost cause, a failure. You are not capable to govern yourself and people within. A burden to the state and its citizens. An enslaved mind.

 

[Menace2Society]

When you need to "adopt" to foreign system, you are already a lost cause, a failure. You are not capable to govern yourself and people within. A burden to the state and its citizens. An enslaved mind.

Pakistan does not have a reference point of its own. The Islamic system simply does not work, its dysfunctional. It like a square peg in a round hole. It is only ego that makes people persist with it. Look at Afghanistan, its not sustainable as a system.

No need to reinvent the wheel, pick the one that works and adopt it.

The reason why Pakistan was able to defend itself in the 50s and 60s is because the West helped to set up their army, the system works.

 

[JawadKKhan]

With the victory of Afghan Taliban we have to become realists

One thing should be cleared. Taliban never defeated US militarily. Its a political defeat for US. Taliban was on their own land, their own turf, Its a huge benefit to militia which is at its own ground. US was the invading party. Secondly, some 2400 US service men were killed in 20 years on the other hand easily 100,000 Taliban / collaterals / sympathizers were killed. Even in 2400 US causalities, most of the kills were either suicide attacks or road side bombs. Taliban never had technology to face US military and survive.

On top of everything USA brought less than 1% of its military might in Afghanistan. The kind of weaponry, man-power, USA can employ is unimaginable for Taliban. US didn't see the worth of doing so, it only wanted to equip & train ANA enough to defend themselves in which they failed. USA felt that its wasting its focus on real issue which is China going to take lead in upcoming decades. That's why US pulled its limited forces from Afghanistan. However, Taliban would claim for rest of their lives that they defeated the super power. Yeah maybe they defeated 1% of US army and even that not on a military campaign.

Now about cooperation with Taliban is a distant dream. Most of the group is full of radicals / extremists who are hell bound to destroy fabrics of societies, they seems to have sympathies with radical islamist groups like TTPs. Sooner we realize this, better for us. Taliban officials keep uttering hatred filled remarks against Pakistan. The very top level don't say because of aid & trade through Pak but their army cheif, local commanders everyone sees Pakistan as enemy. The best we can hope is keep Taliban busy at some other front, so they don't poke our borders.