Afghan officials accuse Pakistan of Indian embassy attack

[Energon]

Yeah stuff related to the army is almost always the important stuff, take Siachen for instance, the Indian Army said no compromise, we aint pulling back after all that waste of lives and money and valaa no compromise....Other examples are there too I'm sure if anyone would care...

The GoI was/is fully in support of holding on to Siachen given its critical strategic position; there was/is no need for the military to make the case.

If anything, the historical record of the Indian army's ability to use the loss of men and material to coerce the government to pursue policy has been pathetic. Gen Cariappa and Thimayya's overtures to Nehru in 1948 regarding Kashmir fell on deaf ears and resulted in a messy situation that has been going on for over 6 decades. Manekshaw didn't fare much better with Indira Gandhi after his forces decisively decimated the opposition. The way the GoI handled the Kargil issue where thousands of Jawans and officers were sent to fight an uphill battle without major interdiction across enemy lines was also a poor showing. All of this btw is one of the reasons why the military ranks are dwindling rapidly as enlistment falls precipitously from year to year.

 

[Kasrkin]

Based on the information I've been exposed to by attending numerous Indian foreign policy discussions and symposiums held by government officials (civilian and military) and academicians alike; I think your hypothesis regarding the current environment is incorrect.
The trend if anything is rapidly reversing. Even for the most ardent Indian conservative, currently the biggest supposed anti-Indian vector in Pakistan is radical Islam, not a nationalized social movement promoting hatred towards India. The former has the ability to seed through virtually every section of the society regardless of ethnic or cultural differences and is for the most part independent of the latter. As long as India maintains military, economic and diplomatic superiority over Pakistan it is a lot more convenient to have Pakistan as monolith that can be vilified and tackled easily. What they find dangerous and most of all frustrating is that Pakistan is anything but a monolith (IMO it was dumb to assume this in the first place). To have a Pakistan that disintegrates, but with the various factions still holding on to radical Islamism is the worst possible scenario because that would mean multiple fronts where nobody can really be held responsible or vilified decisively.

From the centralist -> liberal spectrum's perspective, Afghanistan and now Iraq serve as solid examples of the disastrous consequences associated with sharing a contiguous border with a fragmented failed state. Such a situation for India would pretty much ensure a complete economical collapse.

Hence given the unlikelihood of Pakistan superseding India economically, militarily or diplomatically in the foreseeable future, any threat posed by a unified Pakistan pales in front the fatal risk associated with a fragmented Pakistan.

This is all very interesting- but I was wondering if you ever heard of the term divide and rule? Well for starters it always works...provided you are able to divide them that is.
Frankly Pakistan has never had military superiority over India, but still we are India's arch rivals aren't we? The greatest national security concern they have. That's been the case long before Zia-ul-Haq or Islamization or Talibanization. Indias military superiority over us wont get suddenly reversed if Pakistan breaks up and extreme elements get a bit of it; in fact quite the opposite.
Point is this "we are against Talibanization not Pakistan" thing is just a blanket cover for their anti-Pakistani ambitions cleverly designed to help them gain sympathy from people and places that matter. You would have noted that Indians are always the people foremost in demonizing Pakistan as the worlds biggest corruption-dictatorship-military-Islamic-terrorism-irresponsible nexus. In fact they go out of their way to do so.
So back to the point, the Indians hate us. United we are still a great threat to them; today its Islamic terrorism, tomorrow it will be something else but their feelings towards Pakistan will never change. They will just come up with new fancy ideas and ways of demonizing Pakistan in their 'policy discussions and symposiums' and make themselves out as innocent and responsible heroes who are trying to save us from our own daemons. That's why you might have noticed the contradiction in their own line of thought Agnostic Muslim was talking about. So when the world has forgotten about Islamic fundamentalism there will be something else Pakistan has done wrong that India will feel the need to remind the world about...
India many have military superiority towards Pakistan, but lets be honest, they would love to get more. What better way to break Pakistan's resolve? Of defeating or at least seriously weakening Pakistans military? Depleting its resources so it doesn't even consider a confrontation with great and mighty India?
Militarily the idea that India wants a united Pakistan with a professional, well equipped, trained, resourced and respected army with nothing to do but sit around all day and practise like hell for open war against their nemesis is simply pathetic. Of course they would love for us to batter our teeth blunt against our own people. I don't mean to say the Indians are evil or vile or anything(at least not because of this) but this is just something any reasonable foe would do or prefer.
Ofcourse, this is just my view, and there is merit in your view too.

support of holding on to Siachen given its critical strategic position

I frankly have no idea what you are taking about dude. The whole Siachen affair was pointless and pathetic from the start, there is no potential for India to achieve anything in Siachen, other than perhaps loose 4 men a week. Everyones said it, Indians cant come down and Pakistanis cant go up. The situation is a complete pointless stalemate. It would be best if both sides stop suffering, but since India started this and there is a factor of pride involved it is easy to see why no agreement can be reached. Also there is the fact that if India pulls back they will never be able to retake what they have again...so the IA stays and the issue lingers on and brave men die.
Again thats your view I suppose, and this is not the place to argue about it. I can see and appreciate your Indian military-line of thinking though.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I frankly have no idea what you are taking about dude. The whole Siachen affair was pointless and pathetic from the start, there is no potential for India to achieve anything in Siachen, other than perhaps loose 4 men a week. Everyones said it, Indians cant come down and Pakistanis cant go up. The situation is a complete pointless stalemate. It would be best if both sides stop suffering, but since India started this and there is a factor of pride involved it is easy to see why no agreement can be reached. Also there is the fact that if India pulls back they will never be able to retake what they have again...so the IA stays and the issue lingers on and brave men die.
Again thats your view I suppose, and this is not the place to argue about it. I can see and appreciate your Indian military-line of thinking though.

Bone up. old boy!

 

[blain2]

The nature of roles played and influence exerted by the military upon the government in India and Pakistan are nothing alike. If anything they are diametrically opposite. Every military should have a certain amount of influence over policy when it comes to conflict management/resolution and the Indian military has been no different in this regard. But to equate the two models would be grossly erroneous.

The two models are different thus I am not equating them. Simply pointing out that on issues that matter to the military establishment, opinions are voiced by the military establishments and heard by their respective governments. So lets not make the simplistic assumption that Indian military stands on the sidelines when geo-strategic policies are being formulated.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Indian military actually not only stands on the sidelines, it is made redundant till there is a crisis.

It is the political masters that land it in a mess.

See the Chief's remark over the Chinese intrusions in Bhutan and you will realise that he is not in the loop!!

 

[blain2]

Indian military actually not only stands on the sidelines, it is made redundant till there is a crisis.

It is the political masters that land it in a mess.

See the Chief's remark over the Chinese intrusions in Bhutan and you will realise that he is not in the loop!!

Can you post those here please? I am not sure where to search for those. While you gave the example of Bhutan, you left out the Indian Army's veto of the Siachen resolution. It seems the Indian political leadership was willing to talk and then the Indian Army vetoed it as a no go. Make Siachen a peace mountain: PM

At least in the Pakistani military circle, the opinion is that the IA forced the government to say no. I think you yourself posted an article by Col Athale where the IA Chief made his remarks public about why the IA is not willing to go ahead with the demilitarization of Siachen.
Why Siachen matters

Not debaing whether the IA stand is problematic or not, rather simply trying to point out that considerations of the Armed Forces have always played a part and have been voiced in India and Pakistan alike.

 

[maqsad]

Yeah, and now think of a weak Pakistan in the hands of Mullah XYZ. Compare that with the current situation in the valley.

Get my point?

No I don't get your point. First you said that a dismantled pakistan would mean streams and streams of mullahs crossing over into India but according to your militaristic right wingers who are usually civilians, pakistan has being doing it's best to send militants over into Kashmir anyway under cover of the army on the LOC which uses shooting matches as decoys. So how on earth will a dismantled Pakistan actually escalate these allegedly state sponsored incursions when the state and military become defunct? You don't have a point, just a straw man.

Indian policy has been doddering and stodgy, but never confused. There are no loose ends and rogue elements doing their own thing.

Oh and you can certify that because you are a neutral defence analyst? There are lways loose ends and rogue elements doing their own thing, departments such as RAW do that for a living and as a matter of routine. It's how they earn their daily living. I never said Indian policy was doddering or stodgy, it is very focused and one of the goals that it focuses on is weakening and containment of Pakistan by whatever means necessary. Case in point when India invaded East Pakistan to break it up.

In fact, you have had an unconfused policy since partition to slice up Pakistan into as many pieces as possible, you have done it once already and plan on doing it again. At the same time you have a policy of gobbling up all semi autonomous muslim ruled or muslim majority areas. You have gobbled up areas such as Hydrabad in "police actions" by weakening them and taking over while being ready for a military confrontation.

You know nothing about the influence of Indian military on politics, which is Zilch. The Chief of Army staff comes at around number 13 or 14 on the seniority list whereas in Pakistan he is usually number 1 and max number 2.

Another diversionary straw man argument. The military does not need any influence in Indian politics to remind Indian politicians that it exists and will carry out orders. If 700,000 troops are present in Indian held Kashmir with the COAS being number 13 then it goes to show that this pecking order means absolutely nothing, the Indian military is simply a tool and does not need any political will from within it's own lower ranks to follow orders giving by hawkish politicians. It's the same with any military. You invaded East Pakistan without a military junta in power based on some bogus excuse about refugee spillover. The primary reason however, was to weaken the state of Pakistan.

Now you are in Afghanistan to repeat the same objective, to split pakistan vertically by hook or by crook. No military junta needed in the #1 spot now either.

As I said, India gains nothing by dismantling Pakistan. Not in the present climate anyways.

Laughable. Simply repeating a falsity will not make it true, Indian politicians know full well that their top enemy in terms of resilience has always been Pakistan and it needs to be eliminated. Any opportunity to do that with minimal backlash will be taken up by everyone from #1 to #13 without any regards to them being or not being COAS. The military not being in charge has not ever ever compelled the Indian govt to just get out of some of Kashmir, settle the dispute and move on. And India never will. Why? Because it WANTS to be confrontational militarily over the Kashmir issue and absolutely anything else India feels hawkish about. It is ludicrous to throw around meaningless ranking priorities.

 

[muse]

Don't mean to get in the way of some fine indo-pak self flagellation - just have some more fuel for the fire - so here goes:

from todays daily times:

6 killed in attack on Jalalabad Indian Consulate

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Taliban claimed to have killed two Indians and four others in an attack on the Indian Consulate in Jalalabad in Afghanistan, a private television channel reported on Thursday.

Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid told Geo News by telephone that his men attacked the Indian Consulate with bombs killing six men, including two Indian nationals, and injuring eight. According to the channel, the injured also include Indian nationals and Afghan security personnel.


well..enjoy.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^ So the above was a hoax I take...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Maqsad:

Moved our conversation on FATA to the main FATA sticky thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/8947-fata-situation.html

 

[ejaz007]

Indian Intelligence Agencies Predicted Afghanistan Embassy Attack as Pakistan Signs Agreements with Taliban
Dated 10/7/2008

Two weeks before the suicide bombing at the Indian Embassy in Kabul that killed 41 people, Indian intelligence agencies had alerted Afghan authorities of the possibility of such an attack by the Taliban.

Four Indians, including a defence attache and a high-ranking diplomat, were among those killed in the terror attack on Monday. Government sources said the involvement of Pakistan in the latest terrorist attacks could not be ruled out, with Pak military intelligence trying to strike a deal with the Taliban.

Soon after the attack, Afghanistan too had blamed a 'foreign intelligence agency' for the bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul, making a veiled reference to Pakistan. Security at the Indian Embassy in Kabul was increased and new barricades were erected around it two days before the bomber blew himself up.

According to sources, the loss of human life in Monday's suicide bombing would have been 'much, much higher' had new efforts to buttress security at the mission had not been taken. Ruing that 'there is little anyone can do when someone decides to blow themselves up,' sources did mention that this attack on the Indian mission in Kabul was 'serious' and 'we will not let them (those responsible for sheltering, arming and funding enabling terrorists) go.'

Indian security forces are on high alert within the country and at all Indian missions abroad following a threat perception from terrorists through Pakistan. Referring to the recent suicide bombing near the Lal Masjid in Islamabad that killed 20 people, Indian government sources said that with 'Pakistan too experiencing bombings and attacks that left innocent civilians dead or maimed, it might learn the cost of terrorism and work towards wiping out the menace.'

The Indian Embassy in Kabul will soon be shifted in a new and more secure building in Kabul, sources said. Despite the attacks, India has vowed to intensify its efforts to help with the reconstruction work in Afghanistan and to ensure stability in the country.

Meanwhile, a member of Parliament, on Wednesday, claimed that it is a deliberate design by the Pakistan military intelligence to perpetrate horrific acts of terrorism in India and Indian installations in nations like Afghanistan, and also within Pakistan to derail the peace process between the two neighbours. He said the Pakistan military is trying to create a state of unrest among people in an attempt to show the new dispensation in Islamabad in poor light and thereby seize back power.

Indian Intelligence Agencies Predicted Afghanistan Embassy Attack as Pakistan Signs Agreements with Taliban | India Defence

 

[muse]

Reads like a planted story - security services acknowledging they knew and DID SOMETHING, while diverting responsibility for failure

 

[Zyxius]

I'm getting really sick and tired of that little pip-squeek Karzai mouthing off about Pakistan all the time. Can't we send a team in, pick him up and parade him around tied behind a donkey cart in Karachi? We really should teach him a permanent lesson if you know what I mean ;-) *wink *wink

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

If Karzai goes, another will surface!

It would be a waste of time to remove him from the scene.

And none can remove the USA.

It is there to stay and stay it will.

Let there be no misconception that body bags deter them.

Their national interest shall always be supreme!

 

[Zyxius]

If Karzai goes, another will surface!

It would be a waste of time to remove him from the scene.

And none can remove the USA.

It is there to stay and stay it will.

Let there be no misconception that body bags deter them.

Their national interest shall always be supreme!

Yeah, but I still think we should somehow capture and humiliate, if not liquidate, Karzai. Afghanis are our brothers, but the Karzai and his ilk belong to the crowd that sold its soul to the devil. Its probably just restraint that is preventing our Pakistani boys from shutting Karzai's mouth for good. I wish they would unrestrain themselves and put a bullet in his head.