Afghan officials accuse Pakistan of Indian embassy attack

[maqsad]

Indians appear to be convinced that the destruction of Pakistan through assymetric warfare(terrorism) is in their best interests, they are sold on that and like always Afghans have always been convinced of the same so yes it is very easy to set India against Pakistan and that is what we are seeing. Both countries are mortal enemies of Pakistan, nothing new here except the partnership is becoming very well integrated between the two "enemy of my enemy" allies.

At one time India had a dream they could do it with conventional warfare but after pakistani nukes that dream is gone. Now all they have left is this, terrorism and state sponsoring of terrorism.

 

[muse]

Honorable Maqsad - please consider that the Indian has just suffered from what is, I think we all agree, a heinous act, so some understanding and empathy is in order, is their blood any different from ours, and yes, they are in too much of a hurry to play in a game that they do not realize will exhaust and leave them not stronger but more vulnerable - who better than us know the truth of this.

Bellow is an editorial, that seems to me, offers a more productive persepective:

Interpreting Karachi and Kabul blasts

More frightening than the physical havoc inflicted by the bombings that took place Monday in Kabul and Karachi, are the interpretations that are being placed on them. Why is it more scary to examine the “explanations” offered for them? Because it reveals the state of the Pakistani mind and what it might end up doing in the coming days. It is the pathology of a nation that is no longer capable of standing behind any rational explanation of events. Even where an explanation needs to be tentative because of lack of direct evidence, leaders of the various communities insist on naming the alleged killer to compel their followers to commit more “retaliatory” violence.

The seven blasts that rocked Karachi were “foreseen” by the MQM which had said that the Taliban were moving into Karachi for the kill in retaliation against the military operations of the Pakistan army in the Tribal Areas. This forecast was in line with the announcement from the Taliban led by Baitullah Mehsud that they were getting out of the “peace” phase with the Pakistan government and would hit at Pakistani cities. Consequently, after the blasts, the MQM was quick to state that the targeted areas were poor and middle class areas, and the intent behind the blasts was to start a linguistic-ethnic conflict and hurt the MQM-PPP coalition government in the province. Significantly, when the Chief Minister Sindh, Mr Qaim Ali Shah, agreed with this in his statement, it clearly meant that the Sindhi side of the divide was not willing to take the bait. So, according to the PPP, it had to be MQM versus the madrassas at the behest of the Taliban-Al Qaeda network.

On the other hand, the seminarian Deobandi clerics who appeared on TV accused the national security “agencies” of the military of staging the attacks which, they alleged, were actually “planned by the Americans who had the government in their control”. When a cleric was asked to explain the logic of it all, he simply repeated the mantra. The Secretary General of Jamaat-e-Islami and “amir” of the party in Karachi, Syed Munawwar Husain, later sought to establish the cause in light of the visit of President Pervez Musharraf in the city and used the word “agencies” to try and pinpoint the military culprit.

This is the polarisation along which political opinion will likely be arranged in the coming days. And it will once again reveal the almost fatal cleavages existing in our national politics.

The Kabul blast, which took place hours before the Karachi blasts, has touched off other combative reflexes. The Afghans have accused the ISI of carrying out the suicide attack that has killed 41 innocent people amid scenes that were unbearable to watch on TV. The accusation is “natural” because the Kabul government routinely claims that Pakistan abets the cross-border attacks by the Taliban through the ISI. The tit for tat from Pakistan is that the Karachi blasts were “done by India to avenge the Kabul blast”. Unfortunately, however, since this is an old Pakistani reflex, it will not excite the world too much. The world, however, will accuse the Taliban-Al Qaeda network for the deed, with oblique reference to a Pakistani hand in retaliation against the Indian-Afghan hand in the Baloch insurgency in Pakistan. Of course, the Taliban have not owned the blast, and that means that our major “analysts” will trust the Taliban in whatever they say more than they will the governments in Islamabad or Kabul.

The truth is that both the blasts probably have to be explained as the strategy of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. They treated Pakistan to 52 suicide-bombings in 2007 and changed the Pakistani mind till no one, not even the PPP, was ready to link the assassination of Ms Bhutto to them. The newspapers and TV channels that went to South Waziristan with the Pakistan army and saw the “training centre” for the suicide-bombers, are stricken with amnesia simply because they don’t want to be targeted. If Baitullah Mehsud says he hasn’t done it, it means he hasn’t; and that further means that the “agencies” and the Americans have done it. The wife of the under-trial cleric of Lal Masjid, Ms Umme Hassaan, has declared that the suicide-bomber who killed 15 policemen in Islamabad on Sunday was sent by President Musharraf. But the IG Punjab has revealed that Umme Hassaan was herself currently involved in plotting to kill President Musharraf through a suicide-bomber! Unfortunately, despite mountains of evidence of terrorist intentions and activity by the Lal Masjid militants, the public may still swallow the anti-Musharraf line.

On the other hand, the PPP is learning fast which side of the divide it is on. Clearly, the lawyers, the APDM, the PMLN, and the Deobandi hinterland are objectively postured in favour of Al Qaeda, while the PPP, whether it likes it or not, is ranged along President Musharraf, the MQM and the army. Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani has revealed that the Khyber agency’s Mangal Bagh had encouraged his followers to attack Islamabad. The PM said: “I can tell you with authority that Mangal Bagh assured the candidates that only those who pledged to carry out suicide bombing on the parliament would emerge successful in the elections”.

The word carelessly used to describe the attacks is “destabilise”. It is now quite normal to say that the planners of the attacks had “destabilisation” of Pakistan in mind. The word comes from the “anti-India” phase when everything wrong that happened in Pakistan was supposedly done by India. The use of the word is wrong because Pakistan is already an unstable country. It is unstable not because of India but because of Al Qaeda and the internal conflicts that have divided the polity. The economy is signalling wildly to attract the attention of those who threaten Long Marches and dharnas, but no one is really bothered.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Extremists behind Indian embassy blast in Kabul: US​

By Anwar Iqbal


WASHINGTON, July 8: The US State Department on Tuesday refused to endorse Afghanistan’s claim that Pakistan is involved in the bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul and pledged to continue to work with Pakistan to defeat terrorism.

At a news briefing in Washington, State Department’s Gonzalo Gallegos indicated that the United States believes the attack was carried out by the extremists.

“Obviously this is a tragedy,” said Mr Gallegos. “We believe that extremist elements are working to destabilise this region so that they can gain from instability and any chaos that this may bring.”

The official noted that Pakistan is America’s partner in the war against terror and the United States wants to continue this partnership.

“We’ll continue to work with the Pakistani government,” said the State Department official when asked how Washington plans to deal with this situation. “We’re going to continue to combat the common enemy that we have with the Pakistani people, and, hopefully, we’ll march toward peace.”

Earlier on Tuesday, a spokesman for the Afghan president tried to implicate Pakistan in the suicide attack that killed 40 people, including the Indian defence attaché.

“It is pretty obvious who was behind the attack,” said the Afghan spokesman, Humayun Hamidzada.

“The sophistication of this attack and the kind of material that was used in it and the specific targeting, everything has the hallmark of a particular intelligence agency that has conducted similar terrorist acts inside Afghanistan in the past,” Mr Hamidzada said. “We have sufficient evidence to say that.”

At the State Department, spokesman Gallegos said the United States was working with all the governments in the region to end terrorism and “try to allow the people to live in peace and in a situation where they continue to develop themselves, their country, and become a bigger part of the world economy.”

Mr Gallegos said that Washington believes democracy in Pakistan will also be good for the rest of the region.

“We believe this is an important tenet. We believe this is going to provide for a secure and stable environment,” he added.

“We continue to work with the Pakistani government to fight our common enemy, which is these terrorist extremists who are willing to kill Muslims, Christians, anybody who gets in the way of the path, which is what they seek, which is instability and chaos so that they can prosper under that realm,” he said.

Extremists behind Indian embassy blast in Kabul: US -DAWN - Top Stories; July 09, 2008

Glad to hear it - I withdraw my comments from earlier:

Of course the Americans are completely silent, as they are on the corruption and weapons and drugs trade their blue eyed Kabulis are neck deep in, which report after report indicates is supplying the Taliban with weapons and resources.

Thats jumping the gun twice for me now S-2.

Fine, I'll calm down.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Maqsad,

The Daily Times editorial is right on the spot. At this moment in time it is not important that we determine who is sponsoring these people, it is enough to know that these people are Pakistanis, and are threatening to unleash waves of suicide bombings in Pakistan if their demands are not met. Baitullah Mehsud just issued another threat to that effect.

And Pakistanis continue to blame the "agencies, Musharraf and the Easter Bunny".

Its time to open our eyes - this is the guy that said he would killl BB, and she was assassinated, and the media (bar the Daily Times, to their credit) decide to go along with his denial in the aftermath.

The LM mullahs were on record threatening to unleash thousands of suicide bombers (before the operation), and the media and Pakistanis ignored it. The TTP and other Taliban carried out bombing after bombing last year, destroyed schools and "immoral" businesses, and Pakistanis blame the "agencies" and "foreign conspiracies" and still want us to "talk to out Muslim brothers".

If there is one thing that is clear, it is that the Pakistanis that are murdering other Pakistanis, that are destroying the fabric of the State, that are pushing our nation to the brink of economic and political disaster, need to be stopped. There is no other choice.

If you believe India or the US or Israel are pushing money into this, fine, but we should at least act against those vile creatures that are within our grasp who would take that money and sell out and destroy their nation.

I rage not against those who fund them, but against those traitors who have betrayed our nation, our people and our faith.

 

[Flintlock]

You seem to have a very good knowledge of ISI's structure. Not much of a secret organization, is it? Look, you're missing the point. Even if this WERE rogue elements in ISI, are these rogue elements so stupid that they believe India is going to withdraw from Afghanistan after a bomb attack that kills 4 soldiers?? Care to answer this with, "Yes I believe ISI rogue elements are stupid enough", or "No, I don't believe ISI rogue elements are stupid enough"?

Look, a single bomb blast anywhere will look "stupid" because it won't affect things on a large scale. Yet bomb blasts happen.

Rogue elements by definition are supposed to do just that - act against the current state policy. I'm not sure of the level of their intellect, but it hardly matters.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the ISI structure or whatever. I am simply quoting news reports which accuse sections of the ISI of helping the Taliban.

Here is a quote from NYT:

C. Raja Mohan, an Indian foreign policy analyst who teaches at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore, said the time had come for India and Pakistan to look beyond their traditional rivalries and fuse a joint strategy to confront extremists operating on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. Such an initiative, he argued, would be to both countries’ advantage.

“Whatever problems we had with Pakistan, Pakistan had been a buffer between India and the badlands,” he said. “Now the buffer is falling apart. Afghanistan needs to be stabilized. Pakistan needs to be stabilized. This requires more drastic remedies.”

LOL! India carries out false flag operations CONSTANTLY.

Here's one example from Kashmir.

V. VIOLATIONS BY INDIAN GOVERNMENT FORCES: STATE-SPONSORED "RENEGADE" MILITIAS

Human Rights Watch/Asia obtained overwhelming evidence of the fact that these groups are organized, armed and protected by the Indian army and other security forces and operate under their command and protection, despite the Indian government's claims to the contrary. The government uses the groups in a number of ways: as informers who watch and report on the activities of the militants; as spies to infiltrate existing militant organizations; or as members of paramilitary "renegade" organizations to attack members of Jamaat-e Islami and Hezb-ul Mujahidin and other militant groups.

These are not false flag ops, whatever they are.

Alright, so 4 Indians are killed in Afghanistan. Are you suggesting this will send the shivers down the Indian government and people, and they'll back out of any pro Northern Alliance policy they had? Tell me you didn't write that with a straight face.

Are you saying that a bomb blast which kills 40+ people including their most important military man isn't going to slow down or impede Indian operations even a bit?

How will it help Pakistan if the Indians fear for their lives a lot more in Afghanistan? It will cause, if anything a better security operation and cover for their personnel. Pakistan only wins by ELIMINATING Indian influence in Afghanistan or reducing it, not increasing it.

That's not how fundamentalist rogue elements think. They think in completely different terms.

Can't you see a slight difference between sending thousands of mujahideen to wreak havoc in Kashmir (which has stopped now btw), and killing 4 Indians in a single attack? The single attack is so small it's inconsequential to India, but the PR it generates in the press makes it well worth the exercise.

Buddy it killed 40 people and a Brigadier. I don't know about Pakistan, but in India the life of a Brigadier isn't cheap.

Now if there were hundreds of attacks like this going on in Afghanistan, I'd agree, Pakistan is gaining something. But one attack on some Indians in Afghanistan will not achieve any of Pakistan's objectives, it will achieve GoA's and GoI's objectives though.

Perhaps we should see this attack in the context of the other Taliban-led operations in Pakistan?

"ISI has been doing them". Nice to know you know this through your in depth knowledge.

You want me to produce a list of activities carrled out by ISI? How about we pay a visit to the "ISI Fan Club" section?

Nobody seems to mind when someone starts to brag how the ISI runs the Indian government. However, when it comes to other threads, people start to get riled up.

Look. People bomb places for a reason, they don't just pick targets out at random.

That's self-evident.

You ask yourself who benefitted the most from this attack, and it comes down to NA and GoI benefitted the most, not Pakistan or ISI.

I disagree and I've already given my reasons. India gained zilch from this attack except losing some very important men. Pakistan's current establishment gained little too imo.
However, that's not how the fundamentalists within the establishment are going to interpret gain and loss.

Here's an article from International Herald Tribune:

A look at the role of Pakistani intelligence in volatile Afghanistan

The Associated Press
Monday, July 7, 2008

Afghanistan often accuses Pakistani intelligence of supporting the Taliban insurgency. Pakistan's government denies it. Here is a look at why suspicions endure of a Pakistani hand in the violence — further straining relations between two key allies in the U.S.-led war on terror.

___

HISTORY: Pakistani intelligence helped create the Taliban militia, many of whose leaders and recruits studied at religious schools in Pakistan. Despite international condemnation of the Taliban regime's fundamentalist rule in Afghanistan from 1996-2001, Pakistan was one of the few countries that gave it diplomatic recognition, underscoring the importance to Pakistan of having a strong ally in power in its neighbor.

WAR ON TERROR: Pakistan formally abandoned its support for the Taliban after the regime refused to expel al-Qaida leaders following the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington. Pakistan backed the United States and sent its own troops into its border regions to tackle al-Qaida remnants who fled Afghanistan. However, Taliban leaders were also suspected to have found shelter in Pakistan and of maintaining links with Pakistani spy agencies.

SAFE HAVENS: Afghanistan says the Taliban has used its havens in Pakistan's lawless tribal regions to regroup and stage increasingly deadly attacks inside Afghanistan. It claims Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence was behind a recent assassination attempt on President Hamid Karzai. While Pakistan denies it has any policy to support the Taliban — whose sympathizers pose an increasing security threat in Pakistan itself — the operations of the spy agency are not subject to public scrutiny. Western officials question Pakistan's resolve in sealing the border and suggest some elements in ISI could be actively supporting the militants.

Here's today's NYT:

Pakistani intelligence has long supported militant groups fighting in Kashmir and Afghanistan as a means to influence regions on its borders and, according to some Western diplomats and military officials, it maintains those links today, including with some elements of the Taliban. While Pakistani militants with links to the Taliban have bolstered their strength in the border areas, the Taliban in Afghanistan have clashed with international troops in the worst summer fighting since the Taliban fell seven years ago. The Taliban have resurfaced strongly in the southern and eastern parts of the country.

 

[Flintlock]

Doesn't the Indian government know the consequences of supporting one side to fight the other?

The source provided is fairly new the training of Afghan troops by India was done back in 2004 or 2005 they are getting the results.

India is supporting the more moderate and progressive side, which never hurts.

What does hurt, is when you support fundamentalists.

 

[Spring Onion]

India is supporting the more moderate and progressive side, which never hurts.

What does hurt, is when you support fundamentalists.

yeh Dostam and all other brutal warlords who are ruthless killers of innocent Afghans are moderate.

 

[cactuslily58]

Indians appear to be convinced that the destruction of Pakistan through assymetric warfare(terrorism) is in their best interests, they are sold on that and like always Afghans have always been convinced of the same so yes it is very easy to set India against Pakistan and that is what we are seeing. Both countries are mortal enemies of Pakistan, nothing new here except the partnership is becoming very well integrated between the two "enemy of my enemy" allies.

At one time India had a dream they could do it with conventional warfare but after pakistani nukes that dream is gone. Now all they have left is this, terrorism and state sponsoring of terrorism.

The destruction of Pakistan is definitely not in the best interests of India. A strong,economically viable, democratic, non bigoted Pakistan whose writ runs within its political boundaries, where the law of the land prevails, where theocracy does not run the show is the kind of Pakistan that is in the best interests of India.

Now its convenient to deal with Islamabad, imagine a situation when you have to deal with Heads of state in Peshawar, Quetta, Lahore, Muzaffarabad, Karachi & may be some more.

As regards the portion highlighted in red above. Can you name a third country that came to grief due to actions of Pakistan ? Afganistan opposed the entry of Pakistan to the UN way back after independence. The Afgan - Pak border is wrong as far as the Afgans are concerned. Having spent time there one had 1st hand experience to see & hear things from the Afgan perspective. Would Pakistan accept / like a hypothetical situation wherein Iran considered Pakistan as its" strategic depth" against a war with Iraq ? Howsoever weak they may be, no one like to be taken for granted.

Nukes have not changed anything..there appears to be a mis conception on this issue. What will matter is the ability to absorb the second ( retaliatory) strike.

 

[Always Neutral]

yeh Dostam and all other brutal warlords who are ruthless killers of innocent Afghans are moderate.

Dear Jana,

Have you ever interviewed any of them ? If yes do post some anecdotes of the meetings. It will make interesting reading. I doubt the ISI is involved in the plot but then nor would the ISI bother to tip of the Indians about the perprators even if they had early information as most Pakistani's dont like Karzai's fondness for India.

Regards

 

[Neo]

Extremists behind Indian embassy blast in Kabul: US​

By Anwar Iqbal

WASHINGTON, July 8: The US State Department on Tuesday refused to endorse Afghanistan’s claim that Pakistan is involved in the bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul and pledged to continue to work with Pakistan to defeat terrorism.

At a news briefing in Washington, State Department’s Gonzalo Gallegos indicated that the United States believes the attack was carried out by the extremists.

“Obviously this is a tragedy,” said Mr Gallegos. “We believe that extremist elements are working to destabilise this region so that they can gain from instability and any chaos that this may bring.”

The official noted that Pakistan is America’s partner in the war against terror and the United States wants to continue this partnership.

“We’ll continue to work with the Pakistani government,” said the State Department official when asked how Washington plans to deal with this situation. “We’re going to continue to combat the common enemy that we have with the Pakistani people, and, hopefully, we’ll march toward peace.”

Earlier on Tuesday, a spokesman for the Afghan president tried to implicate Pakistan in the suicide attack that killed 40 people, including the Indian defence attaché.

“It is pretty obvious who was behind the attack,” said the Afghan spokesman, Humayun Hamidzada.

“The sophistication of this attack and the kind of material that was used in it and the specific targeting, everything has the hallmark of a particular intelligence agency that has conducted similar terrorist acts inside Afghanistan in the past,” Mr Hamidzada said. “We have sufficient evidence to say that.”

At the State Department, spokesman Gallegos said the United States was working with all the governments in the region to end terrorism and “try to allow the people to live in peace and in a situation where they continue to develop themselves, their country, and become a bigger part of the world economy.”

Mr Gallegos said that Washington believes democracy in Pakistan will also be good for the rest of the region.

“We believe this is an important tenet. We believe this is going to provide for a secure and stable environment,” he added.

“We continue to work with the Pakistani government to fight our common enemy, which is these terrorist extremists who are willing to kill Muslims, Christians, anybody who gets in the way of the path, which is what they seek, which is instability and chaos so that they can prosper under that realm,” he said.

Extremists behind Indian embassy blast in Kabul: US -DAWN - Top Stories; July 09, 2008

 

[maqsad]

Honorable Maqsad - please consider that the Indian has just suffered from what is, I think we all agree, a heinous act, so some understanding and empathy is in order, is their blood any different from ours, and yes, they are in too much of a hurry to play in a game that they do not realize will exhaust and leave them not stronger but more vulnerable - who better than us know the truth of this.

Sir, sorry for having hurt the feelings of the Indian but I did not experience any sort of emotional reaction in response to these casualties. I am not patting anyone on the back for a job well done, so I should not be hurting any Indian sentiments.

 

[maqsad]

The destruction of Pakistan is definitely not in the best interests of India. A strong,economically viable, democratic, non bigoted Pakistan whose writ runs within its political boundaries, where the law of the land prevails, where theocracy does not run the show is the kind of Pakistan that is in the best interests of India.

Pakistan and India have a land dispute, it's called Kashmir. It will never be settled to India's satisfaction therefore India does not really want Pakistan to exist. India would much rather Sindh, Kashmir and Punjab and perhaps a little more became part of India. Don't deny it.

Now its convenient to deal with Islamabad, imagine a situation when you have to deal with Heads of state in Peshawar, Quetta, Lahore, Muzaffarabad, Karachi & may be some more.

Do you actually believe what you just wrote? First of all Quetta and Peshawar would be in Afghan hands most likely and secondly I am sure Delhi would be much happier dealing with multiple weak subservient authorities than one strong and assertive one.

As regards the portion highlighted in red above. Can you name a third country that came to grief due to actions of Pakistan ? Afganistan opposed the entry of Pakistan to the UN way back after independence. The Afgan - Pak border is wrong as far as the Afgans are concerned. Having spent time there one had 1st hand experience to see & hear things from the Afgan perspective. Would Pakistan accept / like a hypothetical situation wherein Iran considered Pakistan as its" strategic depth" against a war with Iraq ? Howsoever weak they may be, no one like to be taken for granted.

I really don't see the point of that mention of Iran. Iran is afraid to engage pakistan because it will divert resources away from their western border which is where all the action and the oilfields and arabs are. Iran built a big wall on the pakistani border and that is enough for them. Balochistan is too sparsely populated for Iran and Pakistan to have intense hostilities on the border.

Nukes have not changed anything..there appears to be a mis conception on this issue. What will matter is the ability to absorb the second ( retaliatory) strike.

If you don't understand how mutually assured destruction has almost frozen any chance of a conventional battle between India and Pakistan then I can't really argue with you.

 

[Flintlock]

Pakistan and India have a land dispute, it's called Kashmir. It will never be settled to India's satisfaction therefore India does not really want Pakistan to exist. India would much rather Sindh, Kashmir and Punjab and perhaps a little more became part of India. Don't deny it.

What is this, a threat?

Pakistan is the buffer zone between India and the lawless Afghanistan. The last thing India wants is for this buffer to break and mujahideen to stream into Kashmir and the rest of India.

Things have changed and enlightened leaders on both sides realize that the best bet for regional stability is if India and Pakistan cooperate.

 

[Energon]

Indians appear to be convinced that the destruction of Pakistan through assymetric warfare(terrorism) is in their best interests, they are sold on that and like always Afghans have always been convinced of the same so yes it is very easy to set India against Pakistan and that is what we are seeing. Both countries are mortal enemies of Pakistan, nothing new here except the partnership is becoming very well integrated between the two "enemy of my enemy" allies.

At one time India had a dream they could do it with conventional warfare but after pakistani nukes that dream is gone. Now all they have left is this, terrorism and state sponsoring of terrorism.

All of this is a crock of crap. There is far too much evidence supporting the contrary.

 

[maqsad]

What is this, a threat?

You see everything as a threat, it seems.

Pakistan is the buffer zone between India and the lawless Afghanistan. The last thing India wants is for this buffer to break and mujahideen to stream into Kashmir and the rest of India.

According to the screaming propagandists in India the mujahideen have been streaming into India for eons over the LOC.

It's amusing you don't see that as a clear and present threat also.

Things have changed and enlightened leaders on both sides realize that the best bet for regional stability is if India and Pakistan cooperate.

SOME leaders in India do think that way. But there is a right wing element in the Indian military and intelligence bureaus that does want to deal harshly with Pakistan and dismantle it one day by hook or by crook.