Advanced Jet Trainer by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited

[mike2000 is back]

HAL is having industrial capabilities for production line.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is fully owned by the Government of India, is the premier aerospace company in the country. HAL has played a major role in the Defence aviation of India through design, manufacture and overhaul of fighters, trainers, helicopters, transport aircraft, engines, avionics and system equipment. HAL is now ranked 34th in the list of world’s top 100 defence companies.

HAL, a Defence PSU, is a major player in the global aviation arena. It has built up comprehensive skills in design, manufacture and overhaul of fighters, trainers, helicopters, transport aircraft, engines, avionics and system equipment. Its product track record consists of 12 types of aircraft from in-house R&D and 14 types by licence production inclusive of 8 types of aero engines and over 1000 items of aircraft system equipment (avionics, mechanical, electrical).

HAL has produced over 3550 aircraft, 3650 aero-engines and overhauled around 8750 aircraft & 28400 engines besides manufacture/overhaul of related accessories and avionics. The Company has the requisite core competence base with a demonstrated potential to become a global player.

HAL has 19 production divisions for manufacture and overhaul of aircraft, helicopters, engine and accessories. It has also 9 R&D Centres to give a thrust to research & development.

Impressive.

 

[Hindustani78]

ok but you quoted wrong post.

I am just adding more about the capabilities which HAL is having to your post.

 

[Luca1]

Impressive.

Are you impressed that India can license produce this plane?

 

[mike2000 is back]

Are you impressed that India can license produce this plane?

Why not? Its not easy to licence build our designs/plane keeping its high standard, especially in a country that doesnt have a complete aviation industry with complete supply chain to build such a plane from buttom up . So its indeed still an achivement for India to do so and it wull help them in future similar projects.

 

[Luca1]

Why not? Its not easy to licence build our designs/plane keeping its high standard, especially in a country that doesnt have a complete aviation industry with complete supply chain to build such a plane from buttom up . So its indeed still an achivement for India to do so and it wull help them in future similar projects.

I hear a tinge of sarcasm there. LOL. We all know about the LCA fiasco. You and I know about their capabilities.

 

[Hellfire]

Most of the people here on PDF have lots of comprehension issues. I pray that they are successful in rectifying those to stop making a fool out of themselves.

On the topic.
HAL is not that dammed as most people here infer.

A limited and aged manpower is doing a lot of development and manufacturing out there. And most of those processes are our first in the respective fields. Very few aerospace agencies today can run so many programmes all together and deliver.

Pray, do elucidate what has HAL developed yet apart from license manufacture of airframes and those too have shoddy spares again by HAL? And limited manpower? DRDO and HAL is employing so much and eating so much of budgetary allocation that had it been outsourced to a private firm, we would have got some substantial return by now. Look at the case of PSU ship yards going on strike when the submarine tender was being floated, they are making aircraft carrier and do not have the capacity to take up additional projects till completion of the same, but nevertheless, the brilliance there decided to go on strike against allocation to private entities. We have not been able to make LCA fly in 30 years and are nowhere near making it do so without substantial foreign procurement and thousands of crores spent on it. HAL and DRDO are increasingly organizations where one can sit and not perform and get all the pay and perks for free.

HAL is a global player which is having 19 production divisions for manufacture and overhaul of aircraft, helicopters, engine and accessories.

It has great potential .. blah blah .. yeah yeah, have been hearing about HAL and DRDO and other PSUs doing an excellent job ... producing squat for the investment that has been made in them and their infrastructure.

Why not? Its not easy to licence build our designs/plane keeping its high standard, especially in a country that doesnt have a complete aviation industry with complete supply chain to build such a plane from buttom up . So its indeed still an achivement for India to do so and it wull help them in future similar projects.

Future = tomorrow and one thing I have never seen is tomorrow come .. lol ... seriously why are you guys trying to defend the indefensible? I would agree if it was some other equipment like Akash or something which our PSU has been able to field and is damn good, but seriously, aircraft production?

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

We have not been able to make LCA fly in 30 years and are nowhere near making it do so without substantial foreign procurement

30 Years?
Yes the project was started 30 years ago,but be sensible and tell how many screws were collected or even planned even after 6 years of 1983 when it was sanctioned ? None.
Actual work started in 1988-89 when we got Dassault as an advisor on how to make a "START". Then came 1991 and no funds, again project came to a halt, and then the nuke sanctions, now be frank and tell me how many years has been really used to build the first prototype??

Not more than 8 years.

Another fact Mr Senior member,

HAL took only, 14 years from the first flight of Tejas in Prototype form to induct it into the airforce, its the same time which was took by SAAB to indict the Gripen.

We have lacked at many places, failed but HAL and DRDO are not incompetent as you claim.

@Abingdonboy be a help.

 

[Hellfire]

30 Years?
Yes the project was started 30 years ago,but be sensible and tell how many screws were collected or even planned even after 6 years of 1983 when it was sanctioned ? None.

Precisely, the project was started 30 years back. And it was being built on the experience gained from Marut fighter, so your screws and nuts and bolts logic is a no go from start itself as it was not the first time that India was trying to make an aircraft.

Actual work started in 1988-89 when we got Dassault as an advisor on how to make a "START". Then came 1991 and no funds, again project came to a halt, and then the nuke sanctions, now be frank and tell me how many years has been really used to build the first prototype??.

The 90s saw a freeze on funding in procurement of new equipment for the armed forces due to reduction in the defence budget. The freeze was on capital expenditure and not the revenue expenditure with little to no effect on critical equipment like IGMDP or LCA. This can be verified from the fact that of the 5 missiles of IGMDP, 03 are already operationalized in various variants in significantly large numbers. So, if one particular program could make significant progress during the same quoted period, how is that possible that the other had the lions share of impact of fund crunch? Also for your information, the post-Pokhran 2 tests nuclear sanctions were only enforced by the US and not by others like France etc who took a pragmatic approach and continued trading with India. So please do tell me how did it effect the program again?

Not more than 8 years.

Another fact Mr Senior member,

HAL took only, 14 years from the first flight of Tejas in Prototype form to induct it into the airforce, its the same time which was took by SAAB to indict the Gripen.

We have lacked at many places, failed but HAL and DRDO are not incompetent as you claim.

@Abingdonboy be a help.

Only highlighted part:

It is not inducted into Air Force yet. Get your facts right.

Also, first use the equipment being provided by DRDO and then get back to me. A HHTI and TI battery we have not been able to engineer in order to provide for prolonged deployment time in High Altitude areas where the electro-optical systems have high failure rates invariably due to short battery time due to extreme conditions. Despite of the fact that Indian Army has decades of high altitude warfare experience, DRDO has not been able to address the issue till date and their production performs worse than the Polish and Israeli OEM's batteries (just one example). LOL, our high altitude clothing is being made by Sri Lanka ... a country which has nothing called High Altitude ....

You see, patriotism can not be blind, it has to be pragmatic. Accept what is the deficiency in our system, and take it at that. If you want to focus on missiles, yes, I agree, what we hold today is probably what you can imagine and more. That is no doubt. We have done remarkably well in missiles (IRBMs, ICBMs, SLBMs etc) and MIRVs and ABM research and development. But we woefully failed in our aircraft endeavor as even the Kaveri engine failed miserably. The reason? Our metallurgy is horrible.

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

Precisely, the project was started 30 years back. And it was being built on the experience gained from Marut fighter, so your screws and nuts and bolts logic is a no go from start itself as it was not the first time that India was trying to make an aircraft

It was thought so, but what happened??

We had to go to dassault to advise us on how to make a "START".

Where was HAL Marut Experience used?

Also what experience are you talking about??

HF24 Marut was designed by a foreigner with help from India,

Where our contribution was no more than what pakistan has in thunder.

To quote internet , what it says on HAL MARUT.

" The basic design was developed by Kurt Tank's team during Tank's days developing jet aircraft in Argentina, which was to be designated IA 43 Pulqui III, as a follow on for the Pulqui II. Tank departed Argentina for India carrying the Marut's concept with him. "

See now if we didn't designed this aircraft ourself, how are we going to use our experience in designing a new one?

Marut was a mach 1 Fighter, how come we use its experience in building a mach 1.6 one?

Again quoting web

"Although originally conceived to operate in the vicinity of Mach 2, the aircraft in fact turned out to be barely capable of reaching Mach 1 due to the lack of suitably powered engines for the airframe."

Experience from HAL MARUT??? Heck we didn't even manufactured its spares. What experience you are talking about?

If we didn't even designed it ourselves, what are we going to use from it to develop a Fighter which was going to be a generation ahead?

This resulted in 6 Years of full waste in which I bet not a single productive manhour was used.

And at Last we had to beg to dassault on how to make a "START".

@hellfire

Why sanctions from US mattered, because we are using an American Engine , isn't it?

And on Tejas being inducted? Isn't it done this year?

Get your comprehension issues corrected, I am not talking about FOC, but induction in AF, meaning handing it over to AF.

AND we did it when we handed over the SP1.

 

[Hellfire]

It was thought so, but what happened??
We had to go to dassault to advise us on how to make a "START".
Where was HAL Marut Experience used?
Also what experience are you talking about??
HF24 Marut was designed by a foreigner with help from India,
Where our contribution was no more than what pakistan has in thunder.
To quote internet , what it says on HAL MARUT.
See now if we didn't designed this aircraft ourself, how are we going to use our experience in designing a new one?.

You are posting without adequately researching things.

Your internet quoted back at you:

In 1956 the Indian Air Force's request for a homeproduced fighter/bomber - forcefully promoted by the late Air Marshal S. Mukherji - received the backing of the then Defence Minister, Mahavir Tyagi. Accordingly a design team, headed by Dr Kurt Tank, former technical director of Focke-Wulf, started work on the design of India's - and perhaps Asia's - first supersonic fighter aircraft. In 1957, Prof Kurt Tank was invited by the Government of India to join Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. Tank went to India with a smaller team than he worked with in Argentina, of eighteen German engineers and technicians, which number later dwindled to thirteen. The team initially consisted of 18 German engineers, three Indian senior design engineers and about 22 other Indian engineers with design experience. Given the small number of Germans in India, unlike the Argentinean experience, in India local engineers and technicians took responsibility for production engineering, tool design, and manufacturing activity leading to a successful international technology transfer.

Source: HF-24 Marut

So the last part of the underlined statement is where we gained .... namely production engineering, tooling and manufacturing.

Marut was a mach 1 Fighter, how come we use its experience in building a mach 1.6 one?

Again quoting web

"Although originally conceived to operate in the vicinity of Mach 2, the aircraft in fact turned out to be barely capable of reaching Mach 1 due to the lack of suitably powered engines for the airframe."

Precisely. We failed and that is why it was discontinued. And it was Mach 2 not 1.6. Irrelevant as they failed with Kaveri engine for LCA too. So your point is just hot air here.

Experience from HAL MARUT??? Heck we didn't even manufactured its spares. What experience you are talking about?

If we didn't even designed it ourselves, what are we going to use from it to develop a Fighter which was going to be a generation ahead?

This resulted in 6 Years of full waste in which I bet not a single productive manhour was used.

And at Last we had to beg to dassault on how to make a "START".

Answered earlier.

Why sanctions from US mattered, because we are using an American Engine , isn't it?
And on Tejas being inducted? Isn't it done this year?
Get your comprehension issues corrected, I am not talking about FOC, but induction in AF, meaning handing it over to AF.
AND we did it when we handed over the SP1.

Again it is reiterated that France was an option in 1999, instead HAL wanted to try Kaveri on its own which finally flopped. So they approached Snecma ( in 2011 and surprise here , a French company) for M-88 (the engine for Rafael) and a JV was being discussed (opposed by IAF) to have it as JV engine for LCA as an alternative to GE-414. So my dear friend, you can make out the flawed system of working and total lack of strategic thinking on part of HAL. If it is not a deliberate ploy to delay critical equipment then surely it is a sign of gross ineptitude? That is why your contention of sanctions mattering is a waste product at best.

And yes Tejas has been handed over to IAF to be raised in 45 Squadron at Bangalore till FOC comes in.... it is not inducted. We have Augusta Westland helicopters too, they are lying unused at Palam, so are they inducted? No.
Again quoting your internet

32 years on, HAL finally hands over Tejas to IAF; induction still far away - The Times of India

Please read it carefully

and maybe you will be able to see why I have my comprehension issues.

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

ON induction, if I take your logic then add 7 more to the time line of Gripen, because it took 7 years more from form handing over of 1st Gripen to operationalising the first squadron to a useful status.


On experience gained as you say from Marut, lets get our arguments over,
Why did we needed a French company to advice us on how to make a start?
According to me, because there was no substantial gain of experience which could have been used in building a next gen aircraft.

And I propose my last argument only after you clear your views on development of Gripen by SAAB vs that of Tejas

 

[Hindustani78]

Are you impressed that India can license produce this plane?

I think you should think a bit more deeper.

In joint production , revenues are divided by those countries who are involved.

Take example of Eurofighter

The same will happen when HAL will get produce as HAL is having all the production line capabilities.

HAL will produce six Tejas fighter aircraft between 2015 and 2016 and has plans to increase the production up to eight and 16 aircraft each year. The aircraft's naval prototype also completed its maiden flight in April 2012.

 

[Hindustani78]

Ministry of Defence
07-August, 2015 13:56 IST
Purchase of Hawks Aircraft

A case for the procurement of 20 additional Hawk Mk-132 aircraft is at Contract Negotiation stage. Formation Aerobatics will be one of the tasks carried out by these aircraft.Simulator is an effective training tool only for certain elements of formation flying. But Simulator cannot be substituted for the actual aircraft for training.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Kalikesh N Singh Deo in LokSabha today.