ACM Arup Raha talks about PAF & the LCA & another Fighter order

[kris]

PN is going through major overhauling. From land based anti ship missiles to SLCM, PN is getting deadly. Once Chinese subs joins the party 2022 onwards, I don't think enemy will have a field day on Pakistani waters.

Subs alone will be less dangerous. With robust anti submarine network of India your subs will be at disadvantage

 

[deckingraj]

Indeed it is not. When one fights a war it should be fought with the purpose of wining and not a stalemate. By thinking of a stalemate, you have already lost even before it began. PAF defensive strategy is what many Pakistani question. PAF needs to have a offensive strategy along with the army. Pakistan navy is even more worse.

With nukes the offensive posture gets a permanent checkmate...no?? How many times do you see USA using her offensive capabilities against Russia? I believe Pakistan is using a smart strategy...Once her influence increase and she wants to be a global power(which i think is not even in consideration) then i can understand your concern...

 

[IceCold]

With nukes the offensive posture gets a permanent checkmate...no?? How many times do you see USA using her offensive capabilities against Russia? I believe Pakistan is using a smart strategy...Once her influence increase and she wants to be a global power(which i think is not even in consideration) then i can understand your concern...

Precisely why i said that Pakistan is already fighting for a stalemate and not wining which in itself is a loser strategy and this is because of the nuke factor. Just because we have nukes, we inherently believe that all offensive posture goes checkmate which will not be the case in the future. With India acquiring more and more modern platforms it is only a matter of time before India will be in a position not to get dictated by the nuke factor. Nuclear weapons have been a source of deterrence for so long and they still continue to do so however that does not mean we should leave our conventional capabilities under developed which is the case right now due to lack of thinking, unwillingness, nuclear factor or economy.

 

[MystryMan]

SOME VERY INTERESTING POINTS.

ACM Raha says another order for fighters is needed now to plug gap.

ideally he would like Rafale MADE IN INDIA......and has expressed this to Govt

INDIA may order another cheaper option

TEJAS X 123 is coming but will take a full decade.

THAT IAF IS A VERY OFFENSIVE AIR POWER

NO AIR FORCE THAT RELYS ON a DEFENSE concept can expect to WIN a AIR WAR

What is tejas x123?

 

[Jugger]

We need a mig 21 replacement quickly, Rafael's are not the answer to this.
We need to mass produce Tejas mk2 , that's the only way forward.

 

[Storm Force]

We need a mig 21 replacement quickly, Rafael's are not the answer to this.
We need to mass produce Tejas mk2 , that's the only way forward.

India will induct 124 tejas which is the exact number of bison Mig21 but it will take until 2025

 

[deckingraj]

Precisely why i said that Pakistan is already fighting for a stalemate and not wining which in itself is a loser strategy and this is because of the nuke factor. Just because we have nukes, we inherently believe that all offensive posture goes checkmate which will not be the case in the future. With India acquiring more and more modern platforms it is only a matter of time before India will be in a position not to get dictated by the nuke factor. Nuclear weapons have been a source of deterrence for so long and they still continue to do so however that does not mean we should leave our conventional capabilities under developed which is the case right now due to lack of thinking, unwillingness, nuclear factor or economy.

Are you sure about the bold part? Nukes were introduced on this planet way back in 1945 and yet are a huge deterrence...In fact the single reason that we were not slicing each other throats in WW3...If the best technically advanced countries haven't got a way out in more than 7 decades then rest assured that is going to be the case in South Asia as well...Now does that mean Pakistan should not work on her conventional weapons...Nopes...that would be a fallacy...however is it important to prepare for some offensive capability especially when your economy is not doing well and probability of using that offensive capability is zero(for all practical purposes)...I would say NO

 

[Trisonics]

Are you sure about the bold part? Nukes were introduced on this planet way back in 1945 and yet are a huge deterrence...In fact the single reason that we were not slicing each other throats in WW3...If the best technically advanced countries haven't got a way out in more than 7 decades then rest assured that is going to be the case in South Asia as well...Now does that mean Pakistan should not work on her conventional weapons...Nopes...that would be a fallacy...however is it important to prepare for some offensive capability especially when your economy is not doing well and probability of using that offensive capability is zero(for all practical purposes)...I would say NO

I have to agree with IceCold in many ways. Look at all the strategies and weapon systems employed by India. Just the ballistic defense system will mean Pakistan has to fire multiple missiles. Before the defense shield, one could argue that use of a single nuclear missile launch and waiting for the world to put massive pressure on India not to counter was an effective strategy that Pakistan could consider. That option is out. With a nuclear triad and supersonic cruise missiles, Pakistan knows and counter from India will be deadly.

India has effectively drawn Pakistan to the conventional arena where it currently is superior.

 

[Basel]

Indeed it is not. When one fights a war it should be fought with the purpose of wining and not a stalemate. By thinking of a stalemate, you have already lost even before it began. PAF defensive strategy is what many Pakistani question. PAF needs to have a offensive strategy along with the army. Pakistan navy is even more worse.

PAF always had Offensive Defense doctrine, it still does but with advancement in tech and creation of potent layered air defense by India, PAF turned towards standoff munitions since 90s, and Mig-29s are more of concern then MKIs and there are several reasons for that, one is that it has very potent capability with lower RCS then MKIs, a package of M2Ks + Mig-29s supported by MKI on top will be very deadly threat and for this kind of threat PA, PAF and PN are bringing synergy among their assets.

 

[IceCold]

PAF always had Offensive Defense doctrine, it still does but with advancement in tech and creation of potent layered air defense by India, PAF turned towards standoff munitions since 90s, and Mig-29s are more of concern then MKIs and there are several reasons for that, one is that it has very potent capability with lower RCS then MKIs, a package of M2Ks + Mig-29s supported by MKI on top will be very deadly threat and for this kind of threat PA, PAF and PN are bringing synergy among their assets.

You forgot rafale. In the next couple of years IAF will be a potent force to reckon with while all we have are the F-16s, JF-17 and well the rest is crap anyway. Standoff weapons will not be of any help if we lose air control. I guess this is the reason we are now seeing Army inducting modern medium altitude air defense systems and one can only assume that next in line would a high altitude air defense system as such HQ-9. This should in turn relieve some of the pressure of PAF and they can focus more on offensive strategy.

 

[Basel]

You forgot rafale. In the next couple of years IAF will be a potent force to reckon with while all we have are the F-16s, JF-17 and well the rest is crap anyway. Standoff weapons will not be of any help if we lose air control. I guess this is the reason we are now seeing Army inducting modern medium altitude air defense systems and one can only assume that next in line would a high altitude air defense system as such HQ-9. This should in turn relieve some of the pressure of PAF and they can focus more on offensive strategy.

PA knows that PAF will be very busy in any future conflict that is why they are adding various Air Defence assets but all tri service assets are in process of being synergize in NCW environment and it will make Pakistani air defence very potent, if a JFT or UAV/UCAV can cue a SAM to its target with out activating fire control radar of SAM then how effective it would be against enemy.

 

[Storm Force]

ACM. Hit the nail on the head very politely.

No country can win a war in DEFENSIVE POSTURE..

PROACTIVE OFFENSIVE militarys always win more battles & wars

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

ACM. Hit the nail on the head very politely.

No country can win a war in DEFENSIVE POSTURE..

PROACTIVE OFFENSIVE militarys always win more battles & wars

u need to have strategic bombers for that- no country can ever claim to be having a 'proactive offensive' doctrine when they cant strike at their adversary's land or sea assets.

so does India have strategic bombers?

 

[deckingraj]

I have to agree with IceCold in many ways. Look at all the strategies and weapon systems employed by India. Just the ballistic defense system will mean Pakistan has to fire multiple missiles. Before the defense shield, one could argue that use of a single nuclear missile launch and waiting for the world to put massive pressure on India not to counter was an effective strategy that Pakistan could consider. That option is out.

May I know who told you that was even an option?? On what premise did you assume that India will take a nuclear hit and let Pakistan strike out Delhi or Mumbai without any heart wrenching penalty of magnanimous proportion(s), just because world will say so?? Are you of the view that Pakistan will fire a nuke on India, India will wait for a day to two thinking how to respond and on coaxing by world powers will say...fine...I have 1300 million people...I can easily let go 20 million..and a capital or financial capital?? Had that been the case US would have long ago wiped out North Korea/China of 90's or the just broken USSR(read Russia) of early 90's...no??

With a nuclear triad and supersonic cruise missiles, Pakistan knows and counter from India will be deadly.

This is true for both countries. Moment nukes are involved...all bets are off...thereafter there is no guarantee which way the conflict will go and that's the biggest threat that keep hawks on both sides calm for good...You honestly can't even control a conventional full blown war, leave aside nuclear...

India has effectively drawn Pakistan to the conventional arena where it currently is superior.

Sorry but this is an assumption based on false premise...If you were talking about a limited conflict(something like Kargil) then there is still scope of conventional nature...however such conflicts are going to be very limited and short term...with limited firepower...