Aces of PAF

[Pak-Canuck]

Literal definition of an "ACE" pilot is 5 or more kills. Post WW2 in the jet age obviously the number of aces decreased exponentially over time. Only the likes of Russia, Israel, USA, North Vietnam and Iran to my knowledge could claim several pilots achieved ACE status (one from Iraq as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iraqi_aerial_victories_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war)

Can anyone provide how many officially, non-officially and possible claims of ACE status we had from PAF? Obviously the only one that comes to mind is M.M Alam who claimed a total of 9 kills (I believe 5 were fully confirmed by PAF while IAF still only concedes 4 losses to him), but other than that did we have any official claimants?

I believe Syed Saad Hatmi and Cecil Chaudhry each claimed 5 each (although some of those were very doubtful) and Khalid Mahmood, Shamsul Haq and Saif Ul Azam each came very close with 4 each.

 

[Falcon26]

M M Alam is certified Flying Ace as he has number of IAF kills.

 

[Adam_Khan]

M M Alam is the only ace of the subcontinent with 5 kills.

Saad Hatmi was OC 25 squadron in 1971 war and accidentally shot down his wingman during a pursuit who sadly died. Hatmi only has 2 confirmed kills.

Cecil Choudary has only 1 confirmed kill,not sure where he claimed 5.

Saif ul Azam shot down one Indian Gnat in 1965 then shot down 3 Israeli aircraft.

Shams only has 1 confirmed kill,the other two are claims.

Khalid Mehmood has 2 confirmed kills,one of the MiG.23 that he fired at and claimed as shot down crash landed and was a write off, he is also given credit for an Afghan AN.12 but he didn't shoot it down as he was simply flying beside it which crash landed then.

 

[Cuirassier]

M M Alam is the only ace of the subcontinent with 5 kills.

Saad Hatmi was OC 25 squadron in 1971 war and accidentally shot down his wingman during a pursuit who sadly died. Hatmi only has 2 confirmed kills.

Cecil Choudary has only 1 confirmed kill,not sure where he claimed 5.

Saif ul Azam shot down one Indian Gnat in 1965 then shot down 3 Israeli aircraft.

Shams only has 1 confirmed kill,the other two are claims.

Khalid Mehmood has 2 confirmed kills,one of the MiG.23 that he fired at and claimed as shot down crash landed and was a write off, he is also given credit for an Afghan AN.12 but he didn't shoot it down as he was simply flying beside it which crash landed then.

Hatmi with 2 kills? Could you give some details. Can't recollect.

 

[Adam_Khan]

Hatmi with 2 kills? Could you give some details. Can't recollect.

From this article by Kaiser Tufail. I read somewhere else about a Gnat kill from 1965 war,his citation for SJ does mention him shooting down an Indian Gnat and a Hunter though at least in 1965 war he flew Squadron leader Burjpal's Gnat after he landed at Pasrur.
I will check and get back to you about that.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/10/f-6s-at-war.html

One correction,the fratricide incident involved Wing commander SM Hashmi who was OC 23 squadron and accidentally shot down his wingman F/L Afzal Jamal with a sidewinder.

Patrolling nearby, over the picturesque Salt Range, were two F-6s of No 25 Squadron flown by Wg Cdr Sa’ad Hatmi and Flt Lt Shahid Raza. They were immediately vectored by the radar towards the exiting Hunters but it was a while before Hatmi spotted the pair. As the Hunters sped away over the hilly terrain, Hatmi wisely decided not to waste his missiles in the unfavourable background clutter. Using his guns instead, he made short work of one of the Hunters which fell 15 miles east of Sakesar. The pilot, Flg Off Kishan Lal Malkani, was killed.

 

[Cuirassier]

Interestingly my records give Hatmi credit for Flg Offr Rai's Hunter, with Raza getting Malkani. Can't find a confirmed kill for Hatmi in '65.

From this article by Kaiser Tufail. I read somewhere else about a Gnat kill from 1965 war,his citation for SJ does mention him shooting down an Indian Gnat and a Hunter though at least in 1965 war he flew Squadron leader Burjpal's Gnat after he landed at Pasrur.
I will check and get back to you about that.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/10/f-6s-at-war.html

One correction,the fratricide incident involved Wing commander SM Hashmi who was OC 23 squadron and accidentally shot down his wingman F/L Afzal Jamal with a sidewinder.

Patrolling nearby, over the picturesque Salt Range, were two F-6s of No 25 Squadron flown by Wg Cdr Sa’ad Hatmi and Flt Lt Shahid Raza. They were immediately vectored by the radar towards the exiting Hunters but it was a while before Hatmi spotted the pair. As the Hunters sped away over the hilly terrain, Hatmi wisely decided not to waste his missiles in the unfavourable background clutter. Using his guns instead, he made short work of one of the Hunters which fell 15 miles east of Sakesar. The pilot, Flg Off Kishan Lal Malkani, was killed.

 

[Adam_Khan]

Interestingly my records give Hatmi credit for Flg Offr Rai's Hunter, with Raza getting Malkani. Can't find a confirmed kill for Hatmi in '65.

This article mentions Rai being shot down by Hatmi while A/C Tufail says otherwise.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2002/may/salute.htm

The Gnat kill was mentioned on his SJ citation and I agree other than him flying the Indian Gnat from Pasrur there is no record available of him shooting down a Gnat.

Interestingly there was a discussion on ACIG years ago where Tom Cooper mentioned that Hatmi could indeed have shot down more aircraft, need to find tht thread again to confirm.

 

[Pak-Canuck]

Yes a lot of inconsistent sources indeed, I had based my initial post on these sources (which again are mostly claims I believe, with only M.M. Alam being the only certified ace in the sub-continent)

http://acepilots.blogspot.com/2009/01/

(scroll to the bottom where it lists Alam with 9 kills and Hatmi with 5)

http://www.igleize.fr/aces/indpak.htm

(where Cecil is credited with 6, Alam with 5 and Hatmi with 5 and Shams with 4)

http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/ip65pak.htm
http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/ip71pak.htm

(the old Air aces homepage for the 65 and 71 wars where it again lists Alam with 9 claims, Cecil with 5, and Hatmi and Shams with 4 each)

 

[Adam_Khan]

Go through this thread,there was a detailed discussion on air combat losses of both sides during 71 war.

http://acig.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1570

Now a bit about Alam's kills,this is what Air Commodore(R)Sajjad Haider had to say about it in his book"Flight of the Falcon".

 

[Cuirassier]

Go through this thread,there was a detailed discussion on air combat losses of both sides during 71 war.

http://acig.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1570

Now a bit about Alam's kills,this is what Air Commodore(R)Sajjad Haider had to say about it in his book"Flight of the Falcon".
View attachment 642184

What is your opinion on it?

 

[Adam_Khan]

What is your opinion on it?

Alam's account of the dogfight is dubious to be honest,Kaiser Tufail credits him for shooting down Squadron leader Onkarnath Kakar's aircraft while Sajjad Haider believes he didn't.
If he indeed shot him down then that makes him the only ace of the subcontinent otherwise his score would be 4 which still makes him the highest scoring pilot in this region but not the 9 that he claimed to have shot down.

 

[Cuirassier]

Alam's account of the dogfight is dubious to be honest,Kaiser Tufail credits him for shooting down Squadron leader Onkarnath Kakar's aircraft while Sajjad Haider believes he didn't.
If he indeed shot him down then that makes him the only ace of the subcontinent otherwise his score would be 4 which still makes him the highest scoring pilot in this region but not the 9 that he claimed to have shot down.

I think Alam gets the credit for Kacker. AA fire 20 miles from Sargodha AFB doesn't add up. KT's claim is backed by local witnesses apparently interviewed in the 90s.

This is the wrecked tail section of Kacker's Hunter.

 

[Adam_Khan]

Meanwhile Indians claim that his engine flamed out.
On a sidenote Sajjad Haider's claims Squadron leader Devvya shot down F/L Amjid Hussain's F.104 while KT believes there was a mid air collision between the two aircraft.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Saif ul Azam shot down one Indian Gnat in 1965 then shot down 3 Israeli aircraft.

2 mysteres one vatour and one mirage

 

[Michael Corleone]

Go through this thread,there was a detailed discussion on air combat losses of both sides during 71 war.

http://acig.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1570

Now a bit about Alam's kills,this is what Air Commodore(R)Sajjad Haider had to say about it in his book"Flight of the Falcon".
View attachment 642184

Inred something similar years ago... what do you reckon? Did he bluff his kills?