Accept Vande Mataram or go to Pakistan

[Meesna]

Insisting on singing it by Muslims is the most unfair thing

Why? Muslims are a minority; they should abide by the wishes of the majority if majority so wishes. I can name one more country where this is the case and it has your support too. I am at a loss as to what is your moral compass. Seems like if its Pakistan then its the 'majority rules', but if its India then minorities especially Muslims have rights and majority has no right to impose. Sounds bit hypocritical to me.

 

[Khajur]

The history of this song is clear go and read. again and again.

Insisting on singing it by Muslims is the most unfair thing specially when you have a national anthem and when Muslims do not object to that and sing it proudly then what is your problem with it.

Indeed there is more than a just song .

People who choose this song ,they were both hindus and muslims , as our national song knew its history, understood its importance and its religious implication far better than u or any mulla would ever fathom.

Nobody is insisting on its singing ...and Vande Mataram is national song and one can just play silent respect incase he isnt comfortable to recite it . Till today nobody has asked for its removal from being our national song.

Indeed there is more than a just song

U 'll never understand its significance..we never expected anything better from u anyway.

 

[toxic_pus]

The history of this song is clear go and read. again and again.

You need to read the history, again and this time real s l o w l y. The reason why this song was selected to be the Nation Anthem, and later rejected due to opposition and finally selected as National Song after some editing, was precisely because of its glorious history of association with Indian freedom struggle. Not because of the novel, to which it is associated, and neither because of the context in which it appears in the novel.

Insisting on singing it by Muslims is the most unfair thing specially when you have a national anthem and when Muslims do not object to that and sing it proudly then what is your problem with it.

The problem we all have is that the refusal to sing is due to pointless religious obscurantism - diligently fathered by fanatics with axe to grind.

Indeed there is more than a just song .

Yes, there is. The song had inspired generations of Indian to sacrifice themselves for the freedom of India. Making this song a National Song, is an acknowledgment of its role in our freedom struggle.

 

[toxic_pus]

No they as much Muslims only they need time to acustomed to their new faith and practices

Exactly how generations does it take for a new converts to get 'acustomed to their new faith and practices'.

Trying to climb that slippery slope again?

 

[paritosh]

The history of this song is clear go and read. again and again.

Insisting on singing it by Muslims is the most unfair thing specially when you have a national anthem and when Muslims do not object to that and sing it proudly then what is your problem with it.

Indeed there is more than a just song .

I am happy that the GoI has intelligent people that is why we don't have a dictum on this...it's a free country.Uddhav thakcrey is using his freedom of speech...and the muslims their freedom of expression...nothing wrong with either...
I personally wouldn't want any litmus test to witness the patriotism in a secular populace.
I will give you an example of the frail boundaries of the understanding of democracy by our lot....
if i were to write something like..."Vande matram is a shitty song and it's pathetically written...and I hate it..."
I'd be called names and would have been considered unpatriotic...while I am exercising the most effective and basic tool of democracy...the freedom of speech.
queer isn't it?

 

[deckingraj]

@ Paritosh

Hey buddy seems like we are in disagreement once again ..Here are my thoughts...

I am happy that the GoI has intelligent people that is why we don't have a dictum on this...it's a free country.Uddhav thakcrey is using his freedom of speech...and the muslims their freedom of expression...nothing wrong with either.

..

Rightly said..Though asking people of India to go to Pakistan or calling a national song(which people from all religions sung during independence movement) religious biased does not sound music to me...

I personally wouldn't want any litmus test to witness the patriotism in a secular populace.

Again very right

I will give you an example of the frail boundaries of the understanding of democracy by our lot....
if i were to write something like..."Vande matram is a shitty song and it's pathetically written...and I hate it..."
I'd be called names and would have been considered unpatriotic...while I am exercising the most effective and basic tool of democracy...the freedom of speech.
queer isn't it?

Thats where we differ..The answer is in your example as well..Can i say that by calling you names or unpatriotic they are using their basic tool of democracy..i.e. freedom of speech??? Can we say that by inflicting religious bias, people like Varun Gandhi are using their freedom of speech??? To me there are certain set of rules that are required for better functioning of society and respecting your national symbols(anthem..songs..flag) is one of them...

As a reminder here is a link about the significance of National Symbols...

National symbol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[FireFighter]

People who choose this song ,they were both hindus and muslims , as our national song knew its history, understood its importance and its religious implication far better than u or any mulla would ever fathom.

Listen. Who the hell are you to suggest what muslims should listen too and who should they seek advice in religious matters and what not???


Youre clearly trying to pick and choose muslims that suite your agenda. It's your mentality that is openly discriminatory and absurdly divisive and it's people like you that were behind the partititon.


Those Maulanas or religious scholars are people and indian nationals and have their God given rights and freedoms to practice their faith and issue fatwas (which are religious opinions btw) and it's entirely upto the people to decide weather to listen to them or not. It's not upto hindus to decide who should the muslims listen to and seek advice from, that's really idiotic.

Nobody is insisting on its singing ...and Vande Mataram is national song and one can just play silent respect incase he isnt comfortable to recite it . Till today nobody has asked for its removal from being our national song.

Muslims believe in or listening to verses or songs containing such statements implies the highest disobedience to God that is Shirk, which is so offensive and sinful and contrary to their faith that if a person even subconsicously or not sings it or professes such beliefs it would throw him outside the folds of Islam.

U 'll never understand its significance..we never expected anything better from u anyway.

Then why are you wasting her time? why' are you on this forum to begin with?


If you can't develop the courage enough to accept differences of opinions in religion, it baffles me why any one in their right mind would continue arguing and posting on this board.

 

[paritosh]

@ Paritosh


Thats where we differ..The answer is in your example as well..Can i say that by calling you names or unpatriotic they are using their basic tool of democracy..i.e. freedom of speech??? Can we say that by inflicting religious bias, people like Varun Gandhi are using their freedom of speech??? To me there are certain set of rules that are required for better functioning of society and respecting your national symbols(anthem..songs..flag) is one of them...

spot on...the certain rules are getting a proper education.the state facilitates the pursuit.
democracy is about individualism...the stress on individual freedoms and fundamental rights is more than in most other political models...with great freedom comes great responsibility...a true democracy should be void of any censorship and have the best opportunities for getting education for all.
your right to get a hassle free education the capitalist system would want you to pay for that...a country like ours would have subsidies...
you get educated...and turn 18...it is upto you if you want to smoke...it is upto you if you want to engage in consensual sex...or drive...or even abuse your rights...it is taken for granted that you'd use your education and not abuse it.
the constitution of every democracy lays down rules for the extent of abuse of personal rights...flashing is still a crime...and everything else that influences and affects 'others'...others meaning different individuals and separate homogeneous groups(like thackrey's party and the muslims of India)

the curious case of our country is that...we have a mostly under-educated populace...and democracy is a volatile tool to meddle with...
there is so much i can talk about in this regard...

As a reminder here is a link about the significance of National Symbols...

National symbol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

"A national symbol is a symbol of any entity considering itself and manifesting itself to the world as a national community – namely sovereign states, but also nations and countries in a state of colonial or other dependence, (con)federal integration, or even an ethnocultural community considered a 'nationality' despite the absence of political autonomy.

National symbols intend to unite people by creating visual, verbal, or iconic representations of the national people, values, goals, or history.

These symbols are often rallied around as part of celebrations of patriotism or aspiring nationalism (such as independence, autonomy or separation movements) and are designed to be inclusive and representative of all the peoples of the national community."

no state should be pushy about the patriotic fervor amongst it's citizens....my opinion.
there are clauses in the constitution that can land you in jail for showing disrespect to the symbols...in a country like india...it is imperative to follow such dictum though...but by not singing the vande matram song...no disrespect is being shown...and now years after the constitution has been laid...people are meddling again...

 

[FireFighter]

I am happy that the GoI has intelligent people that is why we don't have a dictum on this...it's a free country.Uddhav thakcrey is using his freedom of speech...and the muslims their freedom of expression...nothing wrong with either...

What people like Thackery spew are by far pure hatred for muslims and islamophobia disguised as hindu nationalism. His speech would fall under the Hate speech in almost all democratic world. Probably only in India its 'free speech' whereas the rest of the democratic world it would be hate speech as it tends to incite muslims


You are giving green light to Uddav Thackery's religious bigotism and implicitly approving of his islamophobia and deeply rooted hatred for Muslims and other minorities is so really alarming.

I personally wouldn't want any litmus test to witness the patriotism in a secular populace.
I will give you an example of the frail boundaries of the understanding of democracy by our lot....
if i were to write something like..."Vande matram is a shitty song and it's pathetically written...and I hate it..."
I'd be called names and would have been considered unpatriotic...while I am exercising the most effective and basic tool of democracy...the freedom of speech.
queer isn't it?

While i agree with you in theory, my personal beliefs have nothing to do with that song whatsoever and i have no respect for it as it is so contrary to my beliefs, I would not go to such an extent as to call it names that it might upset the hindus religious feelings.

Freedom of speech has boundaries, and when you cross those boundaries it turns into hate speech and/or incitement, which in all democratic countries is punishable by law.

 

[deckingraj]

spot on...the certain rules are getting a proper education.the state facilitates the pursuit.
democracy is about individualism...the stress on individual freedoms and fundamental rights is more than in most other political models...with great freedom comes great responsibility...a true democracy should be void of any censorship and have the best opportunities for getting education for all.
your right to get a hassle free education the capitalist system would want you to pay for that...a country like ours would have subsidies...
you get educated...and turn 18...it is upto you if you want to smoke...it is upto you if you want to engage in consensual sex...or drive...or even abuse your rights...it is taken for granted that you'd use your education and not abuse it.
the constitution of every democracy lays down rules for the extent of abuse of personal rights...flashing is still a crime...and everything else that influences and affects 'others'...others meaning different individuals and separate homogeneous groups(like thackrey's party and the muslims of India)

the curious case of our country is that...we have a mostly under-educated populace...and democracy is a volatile tool to meddle with...
there is so much i can talk about in this regard...

I completely undertand the logic you are putting forward...However here are selective phrases that i disagree...

with great freedom comes great responsibility...a true democracy should be void of any censorship and have the best opportunities for getting education for all.

What you are talking about is an ideal system..Unfortunately there isn't any neither there will be...Thus one for the larger interest of society has to police around(reasons we have Police..Courts..Law)...Now when it comes to freedom of speech you cannot just rely on person's judgement because you can kill more people by a pen than by a sword...Thus hate speeches..inciting religious bias...provoking riot's sentiments are all consider as crime...

you get educated...and turn 18...it is upto you if you want to smoke...it is upto you if you want to engage in consensual sex...or drive...or even abuse your rights...it is taken for granted that you'd use your education and not abuse it.

Though i can see where you are coming from but there are reasons that even suicide is a crime...Now we can argue that society should be free or not but as long as my actions are not causing issues to anyone i agree with your overall point

no state should be pushy about the patriotic fervor amongst it's citizens....my opinion.
there are clauses in the constitution that can land you in jail for showing disrespect to the symbols...in a country like india...it is imperative to follow such dictum though...but by not singing the vande matram song...no disrespect is being shown...and now years after the constitution has been laid...people are meddling again...

The point is not that if you do not sing VandeMatram you are disrespecting country. The point is if this song has no religious bias then why it should not get the place that this song deserves...You and I cannot deny the historical importance of this song then why are we denying our generations to know about it??? You need not be pushy about patriotic fervour but you got to infuse that in your youngsters..same way youth from the early age is exposed to religion....

 

[paritosh]

What you are talking about is an ideal system..Unfortunately there isn't any neither there will be...Thus one for the larger interest of society has to police around(reasons we have Police..Courts..Law)...Now when it comes to freedom of speech you cannot just rely on person's judgement because you can kill more people by a pen than by a sword...Thus hate speeches..inciting religious bias...provoking riot's sentiments are all consider as crime...

I am indeed talking of the ideal system...but you lost me there after....policing is against the perpetuation of 'crime' which the people of the country define...when they lay down the penal codes...the job of the police is to prevent crime.
this is the job of the police in a democracy..
in a fascist system...the state interferes in matters of personal choices too...and does what we in India have always called as moral policing.
I am not talking about crimes as defined by the IPC...I am talking about personal liberty...and what ever comes in the subset of crime...i oppose it...and hence i support criminal policing.
would you support a draft for the army if it ever happens in India during peace time?I'd not because I'd consider it undemocratic....and imposed.

Thus hate speeches..inciting religious bias...provoking riot's sentiments are all consider as crime...

anyone can say anything which doesn't directly harm anyone...the people who listen to varun gandhi and pick knives and guns to kill...should be arrested...they lacked a conscience did not use their education...and also committed a crime.
so as long as varun gandhi goes home and sips coffee after his hate speech...the state can only use the preventive arrest clause against him....cus he din't do anything.
Hatred is not a crime...and inciting is a two way word...you are not supposed to get incited.
i must also ad...that whatever you've noticed and are talking about...makes infinte sense as it is India that we are talking about and as long as every single person doesn't receive a proper education these high morals will look good only on paper.

Though i can see where you are coming from but there are reasons that even suicide is a crime...Now we can argue that society should be free or not but as long as my actions are not causing issues to anyone i agree with your overall point

let's talk about suicide....why is it a crime?
a guy has been badly fukced...he chooses to roll over and die...he is not harming anyone now is he?
the state doesn't want it's productive population to hara-kiri itself.
suicide is rightly a crime in most places...it's not an individual suicide that the govt is worried about...it is the notion that your suicide attempt gets you no punishment if you fail to kill yourself...so suicide is an option if your wife doesn't pick up your 100th call....is what worries the govt. so suicide can't be compared to other individual freedoms...

The point is not that if you do not sing VandeMatram you are disrespecting country. The point is if this song has no religious bias then why it should not get the place that this song deserves...You and I cannot deny the historical importance of this song then why are we denying our generations to know about it??? You need not be pushy about patriotic fervour but you got to infuse that in your youngsters..same way youth from the early age is exposed to religion....

so you don't know the vande matram story do you?
in Islam...idol worship is banned...you can't be a muslim if you worship an idol.vande matram is a song that worships bharat mata...and we have visual depictions of bharath mata with the political map of india sticking to her rear.
muslims don't want to loose their faith proclaiming their love for the country...I say let's pass.

 

[Goodperson]

They mostly either Hindus or Hindu converts.
There is NO Room for that in Islam

Muslims even Did NOT bow to our Prophets.

Muslims defy 'fatwa', sing Vande Mataram

BETUL (MP): Defying the 'fatwa' issued by Jamiat-Ulama-e-Hind against rendition of Vande Mataram, a group of Muslims led by a clergyman joined people from other communities in singing the national song in front of a mosque here.

A large number of people from a cross section of the society collected in front of the Jama Masjid at Betul Bazar at the invitation of its Imam Hafiz Abdul Razique and recited the song yesterday.

The event was organised by "Rukmani Balaji Mandir", its founder Sam Verma, an NRI, said.

After singing the national song at the temple, a rally acclaiming "Bharat Mata" was taken out and when it was proceeding towards the Bazar Chowk, Razique requested them to sing "Vande Mataram" in front of the Mosque. Several members of the minority community joined in.

"It is not against Islam to sing Vande Mataram," Razique said and added that he himself requested those taking part in the rally to sing the national song in front of the Mosque.

The Jamiat, one of the most influential bodies of Muslim clerics in the country, had recently issued an edict that recital of the national song went against the tenets of Islam that preaches monotheism.

Muslims defy 'fatwa', sing Vande Mataram - India - The Times of India

 

[deckingraj]

@paritosh

Not going into argumentive mode with you since i have so much respect for your thoughts and the way you articulate things..along with the intention of not derailing the thread let me just discuss this one point of yours directly related to thread...

so you don't know the vande matram story do you?

I think i do but may not be as informed as you are...

in Islam...idol worship is banned...you can't be a muslim if you worship an idol.vande matram is a song that worships bharat mata...and we have visual depictions of bharath mata with the political map of india sticking to her rear.

I am very well aware of it... I hope you also know that in Sikhism as well we do not do idol worship..

muslims don't want to loose their faith proclaiming their love for the country...I say let's pass.

and they should not...No sane person on this earth would want any other religion person to loose their faith...but my question to you is it true that "Vande matram" the song that we are talking about today(even sung by A.R Rehman) is actually biased??? I know about the novel that you are talking about and the stanzes which definitely had religious bias but the stanzas that have been picked as of today have no religious bias at all....

I have no support for forcing it on any one...Even National anthem as per supreme court order cannot be forced upon anyone. All i am saying is that this song has a historic importance and thus should be infused in our younger generation..I am all for abondoning this song if there is any truth as far as muslims or for that matter any religion feeling are hurt by it...but however painful it is for people who think otherwise - thats not the case..


Some facts that i know

- This song was first opposed by Muslim league in 1937. Now we can easily interpret that what was the reason...I am sure no one will believe that before 1937 muslims were not muslims...
- After the controversary stanzas that were objectionable have been removed and the one that was adopted as a national song have no bias...I can pull up the translation if you want...
- People are playing politics here and nothing more...A common man just consider it as a national song and it give goose bump to them whenever they hear this song(especially the AR Rehman version)

Here is a link for you...

Muslims defy 'fatwa', sing Vande Mataram - India - The Times of India

 

[paritosh]

@paritosh


I am very well aware of it... I hope you also know that in Sikhism as well we do not do idol worship..

that is indeed a point to ponder...
I googled sikhism idol worship and found this...
"“Some artists have painted imaginary pictures of all of the 10 Gurus. Have these artists ever seen the Gurus? One can find these pictures hanging in almost all of the gurdwaras and in the majority of Sikh homes. The irony of fate is that many of the Sikhs place garlands of flowers upon these pictures and also burn incense in front of them. Is it not idol (picture) worship? . . . while the guru was an idol-breaker, his so-called Sikhs have now become idol (picture) worshipers!” (287)

In other words, even though one may encounter these practices, this is not in the least to say that such practices are correct in light of the official teachings of Sikhism.

The same error with regard to the pictures of the Gurus, also can rear its head in how some people relate to the holy book, the Adi Granth. While technically opposed to all idolatry, the reverence shown to the Guru Granth Sahib (it is placed on an ornate altar, covered respectfully with a cloth when not being recited from, and given a luxurious bed to sleep on at night) is uncomfortably close to idol worship for many Muslims. At a folk level, the distinctions which were important to the Gurus, who taught that the path to salvation lies not in a book or in another man but in inward reflection, are often obscured or altogether lost. It is not uncommon for a Sikh to refer to the Granth Sahib as, “our god,” despite the fact that from the point view of the Granth Sahib itself, to do so is a serious error.

It is not uncommon for Sikhs, especially adults in their twenties and thirties, to also practice Hinduism. This sort of broadly-construed monotheism is quite incompatible with the more literal understanding of God (Allah) in Islam, and is also rejected by pure Sikh doctrine. "

from...
Ask the Pundits

so unless some sikh memeber refutes this...there are some differences in sikhism and islam in regards to the practical implementation of monotheism and idolatry...I am frankly not both competent and interested in finding the loop-holes in faiths...even if the sikhs have no differences...with the muslims on idol worship it is their freedom of choice if they want to sing that song or not.
I am merely arguing about the legitimacy of can dos and cant dos in a democracy....

and they should not...No sane person on this earth would want any other religion person to loose their faith...but my question to you is it true that "Vande matram" the song that we are talking about today(even sung by A.R Rehman) is actually biased??? I know about the novel that you are talking about and the stanzes which definitely had religious bias but the stanzas that have been picked as of today have no religious bias at all....

if it were upto me...I'd want every one line up in the morning at 6 am and jog for 30 mins so that we can root out obesity and Coronary artery disease from our country...but that is my choice and is irrelevant both to the topic and in implementation...I am in full support of the national symbols just as i am to the idea of people working out...but it is everyone's right to outright refuse to do either....A.R Rahman is one muslim who chose to sing the anthem...hats-off to him...many other muslims are also patriots but don't want to take their chances with god...
the state can't treat it's citizens as toddlers...and they know it.

I have no support for forcing it on any one...Even National anthem as per supreme court order cannot be forced upon anyone. All i am saying is that this song has a historic importance and thus should be infused in our younger generation..I am all for abondoning this song if there is any truth as far as muslims or for that matter any religion feeling are hurt by it...but however painful it is for people who think otherwise - thats not the case..

Deckin bro it's not important what you and I think...what is important and righteous is to maintain unity in diversity...and the paradox is that unity needs more depth than what the national symbols provide.
Amongst many in India....muslims haven't yet proved their true allegiance...to them I'd say "pack your bags and go to somalia"..
I'd suggest that you go to you-tube and lookout for a video by Dr. Zakir naik on the song vande matram....it's good.

some facts that i know...

- This song was first opposed by Muslim league in 1937. Now we can easily interpret that what was the reason...I am sure no one will believe that before 1937 muslims were not muslims...
- After the controversary stanzas that were objectionable have been removed and the one that was adopted as a national song have no bias...I can pull up the translation if you want...
- People are playing politics here and nothing more...A common man just consider it as a national song and it give goose bump to them whenever they hear this song(especially the AR Rehman version)

your points are right but they just don't want to sing.

 

[hembo]

'Ulemas won't stop Muslims from singing Vande Mataram'
Mon, Nov 9 09:30 PM

New Delhi, Nov 9 (IANS) In a bid to tone down the row over its fatwa against the singing of 'Vande Mataram', clerics from the Deoband Islamic seminary have said they won't stop Muslims from singing the national song but the fatwa would stay.

The climbdown comes after some clerics from Darul Uloom Deoband met Hindu spiritual leader Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.

'The clerics have changed their stand on 'Vande Mataram' to bring the Hindu-Muslim communities closer,' said a press statement from Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.

The clerics, according to the press release, said they 'do not have any objection to the national song' and have left it to the 'conscience' of Muslims who should decide for themselves whether they want to sing it or not.

The press statement quoted Maulana Khalik Madrasi of the Darul Uloom as saying the fatwa on 'Vande Mataram' cannot be recalled now, but the Darul Uloom will not stop anyone from singing it.

Present at the meeting with Sri Sri were 'Maulana Margubur Rehman of the Darul Uloom, Darul Iftah (fatwa section) in-charge Mufti Habibur Rehman, who issued the (decree), Mufti Ehsaan Qasmi and Usman Mansoorpuri of the Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Hind', the statement said.

Sri Sri told them that 'Vande Mantaram' is not a prayer but a means of thanksgiving.

'The first lines of 'Vande Mataram' are not objectionable in any way. This issue should not be given more importance. The country is above all and there should be no rift between the Hindu and Muslims,' he said.

Quoting a Supreme Court judgment, Sri Sri also said that no one should be pressurised to sing 'Vande Mataram'.